Official KDL..EX500/501 Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 6195 Old 05-10-2010, 05:59 PM
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My bet is that the demo is an exaggeration of the difference. I too have seen the demo of which you speak and when I watch tickers on my 60 Hz Samsung it does not look as bad as they make it out to be.

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post #992 of 6195 Old 05-10-2010, 06:39 PM
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I'd really like some definitive answers as to whether Motionflow is worth the money or not. I prefer the brushed aluminum look of the EX500 series, however money is tight with me and if Motionflow is not worth the extra $ than I can handle the grey glossy bottom bezel side. With regards to my uses I'm going to watch a ton of the World Cup this summer on my new TV (going in the bedroom), but after the World Cup I won't be watching a ton of sports. Mostly DVD movies, some HD movies via cable, and some HD shows (I've heard Motionflow works best for sports and action movies). I will not be gaming or watching Blu-Ray's.

Anyways, any strong opinions would be appreciated. Based on the current price point, the 32EX500 is equal in price to the 40EX400.

This is a video from Crutchfield that explains Motionflow. Maybe I'm naive but I don't recall catching blurry action while watching sports in the past.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jMpfT8C...otionflow.aspx
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post #993 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blairhh View Post

I'd really like some definitive answers as to whether Motionflow is worth the money or not. I prefer the brushed aluminum look of the EX500 series, however money is tight with me and if Motionflow is not worth the extra $ than I can handle the grey glossy bottom bezel side. With regards to my uses I'm going to watch a ton of the World Cup this summer on my new TV (going in the bedroom), but after the World Cup I won't be watching a ton of sports. Mostly DVD movies, some HD movies via cable, and some HD shows (I've heard Motionflow works best for sports and action movies). I will not be gaming or watching Blu-Ray's.

Anyways, any strong opinions would be appreciated. Based on the current price point, the 32EX500 is equal in price to the 40EX400.

This is a video from Crutchfield that explains Motionflow. Maybe I'm naive but I don't recall catching blurry action while watching sports in the past.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jMpfT8C...otionflow.aspx


Motionflow works. The problem in my opinion and many wont like it is that on each years sets its less and less mportant.

For example, Last years sets were around 8 millisecond respone time. This means that the pixels could change 12.5 times per second on avg. that means that technically you saw alot of judder with it off as it was really only going at a clip of 12.5 give or take fps. This means with it off judder city with it on you could still see judder cause the panel can only do what it can do. But with it on it did trick the eye a bit.

This year the 60ex500 and other ex500 are at around 4ms refresh. This means about 25fps. The difference is huge for your eyes. At this refresh rate your eyes dont percieve judder. Motion flow off or on doesnt matter as much. There are still some instances where it does help trick you eye but those instances are now few and far between.

If they get to 2ms, 50 fps then a 60 panel will be all youd need.

Remember this isnt running a game at 60 fps. The reason a game needs that is so that when it gets fast and furious and the fps drops it only drops to 30 so there is no percieved fps loss. If a game is at 30 to start and drops below 24 you then see it.

For video 24 fps is percieved smooth.

I posted this thread a few weeks ago. It got no response though it explains everything. If you read this and what I wrote I think you may understand it all. /120/240 was needed cause lcd panels are slow. Yet it was only a trick and artificial which is why it doesnt look right.

Anway here is the link from the thread explaining lcd lag

http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...onse-time.html
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post #994 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 06:18 AM
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My settings are or should be final. I am using the custom.

This set is stunning. STUNNING. You cannot get a better set for 2k. You cannot get a better 60 inch set.

In comparison to my old 54g10 plasma this set wins in every single way except viewing angle.

Black level Sony win. It is close to the g10 when it was new, It destroys the g10 after it rises. This set also beats the sammy and the lg plasma for black level. I don't need a meter to show me that.

Motion as discussed a post ago is a non issue on this set. A non issue

Color is much more accurate than the g10 plasma. I don't have a meter for this. When a review comes out that tests this set I am pretty sire its going to have very accurate color temp out of the box and excellent color accuracy. There is very little color push if at all.

Viewing angle is very good to just beyond bezel to bezel. Due to the set being 60 that's pretty far left and right each way. It seems to hold the calibrated image farther left and right than other LCD's. Once you move far enough left and right past that wider than normal good point it seems to degrade faster than other LCD sets. But still far better viewing than a projection set. This is a non issue for me. All viewers can have an excellent view and since most nobody cares but me I can always find an excellent seat .

Shadow detail is better on this set than a g10 plasma. The reason the g10 rates so high in shadow detail is because gamma is off and by a lot. It runs around 1.8 out of the box and this shows much more detail that intended or is natural.

The sony is not perfect I think but it is very close to what should be proper detail. I dont think that this is measurable by patterns So I think patterns will show that it may be a little short in detail but I don't think it is and if it is its really only a hair. The reason I think this is because in order to see this set in all its glory you need to set black corrector and ACE to low. Since the set is adjusting the backlight on the fly It works much better with real material that a static test pattern. This also goes for getting a true black level reading. Its just not going to happen.

The reason for me saying what I said about shadow detail relates to what Im going to talk about next. The settings.

I have switched to custom mode. the reason for this is After playing with everything, Using discs patterns and much viewing material I feel that black level enhancement provides much benefit and is needed. Cinema mode has ACE engaged to low but it does not use black corrector.

Black correction deepens the black level of the set. It provides the back light with further control to dim itself in darker scenes. This eliminates any flashlight or clouding that you may have. This set with ACE and black corrector on low is incredible. Having ACE on low also allows you to get a verry bright image with backlight at min which also deepens black level and and helps anyone that needs help with screen uniformity.

Once you see the set working with these 2 features being used vs having them off you see that the set was designed with them to be used and running. IMO sites like CNET and others are going to give the set bad black level and uniformity reviews because they are going to immediatly turn them off and never even try them which is what they always do. Its why I don't trust thier reviews. They don't "play" with the sets. Sometimes engineers are smarter than a review guy at a website

This set is officially incredible in my opinion.
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post #995 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

I worked on Custom mode. I got it working without image noise. Im not sure why it went away or what setting it was exactly.

I posted the custom version along with the cinema version. Custom is slightly sharper and colors are a hair different in cinema mode.

Your posted settings are under both Custom and Cinema. Do you use both sets?
Thanks.
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post #996 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

Motionflow works. The problem in my opinion and many wont like it is that on each years sets its less and less mportant.

For example, Last years sets were around 8 millisecond respone time. This means that the pixels could change 12.5 times per second on avg. that means that technically you saw alot of judder with it off as it was really only going at a clip of 12.5 give or take fps. This means with it off judder city with it on you could still see judder cause the panel can only do what it can do. But with it on it did trick the eye a bit.

This year the 60ex500 and other ex500 are at around 4ms refresh. This means about 25fps. The difference is huge for your eyes. At this refresh rate your eyes dont percieve judder. Motion flow off or on doesnt matter as much. There are still some instances where it does help trick you eye but those instances are now few and far between.

If they get to 2ms, 50 fps then a 60 panel will be all youd need.

Remember this isnt running a game at 60 fps. The reason a game needs that is so that when it gets fast and furious and the fps drops it only drops to 30 so there is no percieved fps loss. If a game is at 30 to start and drops below 24 you then see it.

For video 24 fps is percieved smooth.

I posted this thread a few weeks ago. It got no response though it explains everything. If you read this and what I wrote I think you may understand it all. /120/240 was needed cause lcd panels are slow. Yet it was only a trick and artificial which is why it doesnt look right.

Anway here is the link from the thread explaining lcd lag

http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...onse-time.html

You might want to look into LCD refresh rates again, because you got that wrong. 16ms is all that is needed for 60fps content, 8ms is needed for 120hz, 4 ms for 240hz. All the Ms does is determin the trailing effect, problem is that it is the most fudged number on HDTVs next to contrast ratio, it has nothing to do with motion resolution and should be ignored just like the dynamic contrast should be. (and yes, you can easily see a difference between 30 and 60fps, it is very noticable)

This explains motion blur much better than your link.
http://hometheatermag.com/gearworks/707gear/

Quote:


A 60-Hz signal, as far as an LCD is concerned, displays 60 frames every second, or one every 16.67 ms


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post #997 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

You might want to look into LCD refresh rates again, because you got that wrong. 16ms is all that is needed for 60fps content, 8ms is needed for 120hz, 4 ms for 240hz. All the Ms does is determin the trailing effect, problem is that it is the most fudged number on HDTVs next to contrast ratio, it has nothing to do with motion resolution and should be ignored just like the dynamic contrast should be. (and yes, you can easily see a difference between 30 and 60fps, it is very noticable)

This explains motion blur much better than your link.
http://hometheatermag.com/gearworks/707gear/

Interesting thanks Pen. guess I had it wrong. In the end it doesnt matter how the set does it. There is no blur or judder that is any more percceivable on this set than was the panny plasma I had. I was sensative to the judder and CANNOT stand the soap opera effect. I can tell you this set motion is perceived by me as normal.
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post #998 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 08:17 AM
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Pen, I'd like your opinion on Motionflow. Is it worth the $?

Here is what I'm debating between:

32EX400: $494.

32EX500: $629.

40EX400: $629.

32EX500 being the one with Motionflow. PQ is more important than screen size in my situation. Thanks.
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post #999 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blairhh View Post

Pen, I'd like your opinion on Motionflow. Is it worth the $?

Here is what I'm debating between:

32EX400: $494.

32EX500: $629.

40EX400: $629.

32EX500 being the one with Motionflow. PQ is more important than screen size in my situation. Thanks.

The last time I had a set with motion enhancers was a year ago when I had a Samsung 52a750, I didn't care for them then. I have no idea how well they work on these sets but at those sizes, I don't know how usefull they would be. Size matters most, so I would get the largest set that you can afford.

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post #1000 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 08:51 AM
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I think I'm going to go with the 40EX400. I can't justify spending the same amount of money for a 32" model just to get Motionflow (and that nicer bottom bezel). Thanks.
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post #1001 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 09:14 AM
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i'm near to buy the tv, and 32ex500 is the favourite candidate...
With blu-ray and sd it's to been a good tv (especially for his price), the only point remains is input lag (games, especially ps3 and wii).
Can i play without problems with this tv? please help

ht: vpr -> Epson tw2000 , avr -> Denon 1909, sub -> mosscade titan 5.1, bdp: play3 slim My Blu-ray collection;)
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post #1002 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 10:23 AM
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Serialmike, I agree with ace and black corrector on low, this is exactly where I have my settings, as anything else sort of obscures detail or washes out the picture with ACE.

I don't really look for CNET as a source on tvs. HTmag does a much better job.

Anyway, it's a great set and I'm looking for some US reviews of it sometime soon.

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post #1003 of 6195 Old 05-11-2010, 09:32 PM
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Wow...a week after having the KDL32EX500 and mixing all of you guys settings to my likings...i must admit that this is the best 32" tv i've ever seen...perfect for anything...even gaming!
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post #1004 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobid78 View Post

Wow...a week after having the KDL32EX500 and mixing all of you guys settings to my likings...i must admit that this is the best 32" tv i've ever seen...perfect for anything...even gaming!

can you tell us with which consoles and games you play? no problems with the input lag?

ht: vpr -> Epson tw2000 , avr -> Denon 1909, sub -> mosscade titan 5.1, bdp: play3 slim My Blu-ray collection;)
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post #1005 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pcguru83 View Post

Is there a good way to test MotionFlow functionality? While in Best Buy when shopping they had one of those split screen demos showing the difference that a higher refresh rate makes on something like a ticker at the bottom of the screen (it was a 240Hz Samsung). The difference was fairly noticeable.

So I figured I'd try something similar tonight to see how it looked on my new Sony (46EX500). I opted for this unit over the 46EX400 just because of the "future proofing" of the 120Hz feature. But I'll be danged if I can't seem to tell a bit of a difference now that I've gotten it home. I tried looking back and forth at ticker tapes on CNBC, Fox News, and ESPN and I can't see one single bit of a difference. Even cranked it up to high--nada. So I left it on high and did some channel surfing to see if I could observe this "soap opera" effect I hear so much about, but I'm just not seeing it.

Are my 27 year old eyes broke? Or was that "demo" I observed in Best Buy BS? Or (really stretching it here) is my MotionFlow feature "broke"? I'd appreciate some insight.

Keep in mind that 120hz and motionflo are two different things.

The EX500 always displays video at 120hz (the EX400 displays it at 60hz). I don't know any way of turning this feature off... and I can't think of a reason why you'd want to turn this off. It displays each frame multiple times in an effort to eliminate motion blur caused by pixels not responding fast enough to motion. I don't know of a good way to do an A-B comparison of this short of setting up a 60hz TV up next to a 120hz TV, feed them the same signal and see if you notice a difference during motion.

Motionflo analyzes the current and previous frames of video and builds interpolated frames that it inserts between the actual video frames. i.e. it's generating frames that it thinks will make the motion on screen look smoother (why you hear the term soap-opera effect). If the processing can't keep up with the motion skips or artifacts can result.

My take on it is that the 120hz is worthwhile (obviously, or I wouldn't have bought an EX500). I played around with motionflo a bit, some things looked better, some things didn't... and I tend to find settings I like for all viewing so I turned motionflo off because there are some instances where I didn't like what it was doing.
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post #1006 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pcguru83
Are my 27 year old eyes broke? Or was that "demo" I observed in Best Buy BS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post

Keep in mind that 120hz and motionflo are two different things.

The EX500 always displays video at 120hz (the EX400 displays it at 60hz). I don't know any way of turning this feature off... and I can't think of a reason why you'd want to turn this off. It displays each frame multiple times in an effort to eliminate motion blur caused by pixels not responding fast enough to motion. I don't know of a good way to do an A-B comparison of this short of setting up a 60hz TV up next to a 120hz TV, feed them the same signal and see if you notice a difference during motion.

Motionflo analyzes the current and previous frames of video and builds interpolated frames that it inserts between the actual video frames. i.e. it's generating frames that it thinks will make the motion on screen look smoother (why you hear the term soap-opera effect). If the processing can't keep up with the motion skips or artifacts can result.

My take on it is that the 120hz is worthwhile (obviously, or I wouldn't have bought an EX500). I played around with motionflo a bit, some things looked better, some things didn't... and I tend to find settings I like for all viewing so I turned motionflo off because there are some instances where I didn't like what it was doing.

The simple answer to pcguru83's question is that the 120Hz demo built into the display is an exaggeration. Same for Samsung and LG demos.

In actual use the difference is very slight.
Watch a stock ticker and turn the MotionFlow on and off.
You should notice a very slight difference in the clarity of the moving text.

And contrary to your opinion, a 60Hz display and a 120Hz display will look exactly the same when the interpolation feature is turned off.
The exception is when viewing a 24fps source.

When MotionFlow is off on a 120Hz display, you will see a new original frame 60 times a second, just like a 60Hz display.
The added 120Hz frames are duplicate 60Hz originals and are sample and hold,
so the frame doesn't change on the display from one original frame until the next original 60Hz frame.
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post #1007 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghiltanas View Post

can you tell us with which consoles and games you play? no problems with the input lag?

I play xbox 360...i've played Call Of Duty: Mw2...Halo 3 ODST/Reach Beta...Super Street Fighter 4 and Gears Of War 2....once you put the scene to game mode their is absolutely no lag at all...and this isn't coming from a casual gamer...i'm a huge mw2 geek and before this tv i played on a CRT...i don't notice any diff at all in input lag or anything...this tv is amazing.
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post #1008 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 01:25 PM
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thank you tobid78 , i'm glad to read that

ht: vpr -> Epson tw2000 , avr -> Denon 1909, sub -> mosscade titan 5.1, bdp: play3 slim My Blu-ray collection;)
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post #1009 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 01:26 PM
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Good afternoon,

I just received my KDL55EX500 via the Sony Replacement Program. Replacing my 60in KDF60WF655... I only wished the offer me the KDL60EX500; but after pleading, demanding, negotiating via email and call back no luck what at all... but I'm pleased with the 55in TV for now...

My questions and request for help is; what is the best picture setting for this TV; since I have read that the 60 & 55 are different display panels... Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated...

Thanks
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post #1010 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobid78 View Post

I play xbox 360...i've played Call Of Duty: Mw2...Halo 3 ODST/Reach Beta...Super Street Fighter 4 and Gears Of War 2....once you put the scene to game mode their is absolutely no lag at all...and this isn't coming from a casual gamer...i'm a huge mw2 geek and before this tv i played on a CRT...i don't notice any diff at all in input lag or anything...this tv is amazing.

Do you notice any blurring when turning to shoot somebody ? I had a sony w5100 from last year, but when I would game on it, it seemed I would lose my aim when I turned quickly due to the blurring. Other than that, I regret selling that lcd, it had an amazing picture.

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post #1011 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 02:21 PM
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Received my KDL60EX500 replacement for my 60XBR1 SXRD. Initial results are this is better than the SXRD for Dish HD and with Blu-ray is alot better. Will post my settings later.
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post #1012 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 09:18 PM
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My settings on a KDL60EX500:

User Menu Settings
Picture Mode : CUSTOM
Backlight: 4
Picture: 82
Brightness : 50
Color : 53
Hue : 0
Color Temperature : Warm1
Sharpness : Min
Noise Reduction : Off
MPEG NR : Off
Motionflow: Standard
Cinemotion: Auto 1
Advanced Settings
Black Corrector : Off
Advanced CE : Off
Gamma : OFF
Clear White : Off
Live Color : Off
White Balance :
R-Gain : 0
G-Gain :-4
B-Gain : 0
R-Bias : +2
G-Bias : -4
B-Bias : +3
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post #1013 of 6195 Old 05-12-2010, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Do you notice any blurring when turning to shoot somebody ? I had a sony w5100 from last year, but when I would game on it, it seemed I would lose my aim when I turned quickly due to the blurring. Other than that, I regret selling that lcd, it had an amazing picture.

This is actually one of the first things i checked for because i noticed it playing on a friends LCD...their is no blurring at all on the 32EX500 that i've noticed.
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post #1014 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 02:31 AM
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Can somebody tell me if this (the Ex500) supports 24p for movies??? Thanks
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post #1015 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 02:47 AM
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it does indeed support 24p.
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post #1016 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjbjbjb View Post

My settings on a KDL60EX500:

User Menu Settings
Picture Mode : CUSTOM
Backlight: 4
Picture: 82
Brightness : 50
Color : 53
Hue : 0
Color Temperature : Warm1
Sharpness : Min
Noise Reduction : Off
MPEG NR : Off
Motionflow: Standard
Cinemotion: Auto 1
Advanced Settings
Black Corrector : Off
Advanced CE : Off
Gamma : OFF
Clear White : Off
Live Color : Off
White Balance :
R-Gain : 0
G-Gain :-4
B-Gain : 0
R-Bias : +2
G-Bias : -4
B-Bias : +3

Hi jb(4),
Just curious about what technique your settings are based on. Did you use a meter, a cal disc, or just the good ol' eye-meter? I'm still having a hard time getting the gray scale to be linear...
Cheers,
Chris

Take responsibility for your own actions...society is not here to look after you...
In other words, if you order coffee, expect it to be hot for chrissake!
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post #1017 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post

Hi jb(4),
Just curious about what technique your settings are based on. Did you use a meter, a cal disc, or just the good ol' eye-meter? I'm still having a hard time getting the gray scale to be linear...
Cheers,
Chris

That would have to be eye imo. Warm1 along with backlight of 4 provides high brightness level,, low black level and incorrect white balance.

Along with ACE and Black level on this set need to be set to low to provide proper image. But it maybe how he prefersa Nothing wrong with that.
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post #1018 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 04:45 AM
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Any word on when any firmware updates will be out for the EX500 series?

Movieguy
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post #1019 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 04:56 AM
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Any word on when any firmware updates will be out for the EX500 series?

I dont see any need for firmware update. there is nothing wrong with the set.
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post #1020 of 6195 Old 05-13-2010, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post

Hi jb(4),
Just curious about what technique your settings are based on. Did you use a meter, a cal disc, or just the good ol' eye-meter? I'm still having a hard time getting the gray scale to be linear...
Cheers,
Chris

Yes, I eyeballed it. Gray scale was done by using Casablanca blu-ray, contrast & brightness by THX optimizer. When I used a lower backlight setting the picture seemed too dim and not bright enough.
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