Official Samsung LED UNXXC6300, UNXXC6400 & UNXXC6500 Owner's Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy Tia View Post

The 120 Hz setting is somewhat misleading in its name. It's actually a function that uses frame to frame interpolation to create a smoother motion effect. The effect output is at 120 FPS, or 120 Hz as the marketing ploys go, but the monitor's refresh rate remains 60 Hz.

What you are looking for is AutoMotionPlus 120 Hz, which is found in the following:

Picture
Picture Options
AutoMotionPlus 120 Hz


Not to dispute you, but this could be mis-leading to what "km23's" actual question was. He asked how to change his display to 120 Hz.
The answer is, you can't! The TV is automatically processing the incoming 60 Hz signal & outputting it at 120 Hz. Nothing he does (or doesn't do) will change that. The purpose of the AMP (Auto Motion Plus) is to get rid of 3:2 pulldown when watching movies in 24 fps. The resultant is a "smoothing out" effect which, to some, looks unnatural. So whether he utilizes the AMP or not, he will still be getting material that has been processed at 120 Hz. Just wanted to claify in case it was confusing to him..:-)

Ken

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post #722 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy Tia View Post

I verified this. Once I went below 10, a great deal of gradient detail was lost on the menubars. I was looking through a carefully focused magnifying glass just to make sure I wasn't seeing things wrongly. 14 is bright, but not blindingly bright. Remember, I dropped the brightness from the default setting down to 45. At all defaults, including BL:14 the TV is too bright, especially at Native.

very bizarre since i've never heard backlight setting being used to set shadow detail before, maybe the LED sets do something weird. I promise you I can even see level 1 of 255 even at backlight 2 on my CCFL C-series once it has been properly calibrated with the brightness, contrast, WB settings and 10pt WB settings (the latter is used to straighten out the gamma curve which samsung tends to make rise toward 2.6 from 2.2 below 25% level). but again maybe the LED models are doing things differently or perhaps the panel you have, did you know they are using at least ELEVEN different panels in the c-series so far! One person claims the SQ02 in his set crushes the deep blacks. So who knows you probably have a different sort of panel than me. (SQ01-2010; although it does have this very weird thing where every other scanline uses less green, i mean put up a solid block of color and every other line is different, i dont know what the heck is going on! but odd and even scanlines render the same color with a slightly different shade; it didnt happen on the SQ01 i saw in C8000 but i do see it in SQ01 on some other models a good deal of the time; do you have any ideas what might be the issue???)

Quote:


As for HDMI Black Level, the reason it's a misleading control is that virtually zero sources (players, computer video cards, etc.) actually have readily available information regarding the white/black levels (0-16 for blacks, 237-255 for whites). It also doesn't help that players like the PS3 have what is called an HDMI Super White setting, which AFAICS enables the 237-255 part of the spectrum, but has no real documentation or specifics on its functionality. In all honesty this setting should be called Full Spectrum HDMI with "Full" and "Limited" as the options.

Much of the controversy and confusion over these options could be eliminated by actually describing and documenting exactly what they do instead of just "saying it in marketing terms".

yeah it's really weird terminology, what the heck is "Normal" even supposed to mean? since there are still more people who only use external players and set top boxes than PC's with them how is 0-255 range even normal? I bet a lot of people figure well Normal sounds well normal it must be the most general purpose setting and end up with a ruined image!

even worse is that some manufacturers use the terms the opposite way, etc.

they should just label it PC Levels and Video Levels as is standard and add the [0-255] and [16-235] next to each name and give a few sentences about what it means

i havent looked at the C-series manual too much yet but I recall the xx71 series manuals were basically:

the black level setting sets the black level
teh gamma setting sets the gamma
the color setting adjusts the color
the color space settings adjusts the color space
the blah-blah-blah setting adjusts the blah-blah-blah

that is all the whole manual did telling you zero! if you could read the menu you already had the entire manual right there hah.




Quote:


Regarding Color Space, Native oversaturates the colors. Period. For once (and this is a shocker considering this particular option), Samsung actually got the description right: "Sets the color range wider than that of the input video source". My guess is this is only possible because of a very specific line in the EDID data dump I'm about to put into this post below.

not period.

only period for non-color managed stuff.

it will oversaturate output from a cable box, external blu-ray/dvd player, non-ICC away PC programs but it WON'T oversaturate ICC aware computer output (granted not much more than certain photo/pciture viewer/sorter/editors are ICC aware so it will leave most stuff oversaturated)



Quote:


RGB 4:4:4 & YCrCb 4:4:4 Color Encoding Formats

hmm does it say that even when not in PC mode? since all the samsungs i have seen are NOT 4:4:4 unless in PC mode, they are all chroma sub-sampled, even in game mode, I believe they may be 4:2:2 unless set to PC mode. I wonder if this is a bug or maybe it's just that they only programmed the color space engine to work with 4:2:2 and thus need to lock out 4:4:4 in all but PC modes???




Quote:



Obviously this display can do 0-255, but the Native setting, even on a 0-255 output source (Radeon HD3870 in my case) oversaturates the colors as I noted above in my original post, washing out a lot of fine level detail in darker parts of an image. I verified this with the World of Warcraft login screen for a live moving image test. The background and snowfall using the Normal setting showed blue and white intermixes as it should, but using Native there was such an oversaturation of blue that the white was drowned out and virtually gone.

yes but that is because Warcraft is not ICC managed. Try to view a photo in photoshop or MS Photo Viewer or Photomechanic and providing that you created a custom ICC profile for the screen in Native mode it will look 100% fine in Native mode. But yeah MOST but NOT all stuff will look oversaturated in Native.

Quote:


HDMI Black Level, if it did what you say it should, should ONLY expand the blacks and whites, but in reality when set to Low darkens ALL colors. This time I used the background of the Calnus interior in Star Ocean 4 (the ship you travel in), and with HDMI BL set to Low, there were details of the very dark areas of the bulkheads missing that were there when Normal was the setting used.

what it does is scales the data, only middle gray 50% should stay the same between Low and Normal.

believe me Normal is for black=0 to 255=white and Low is for black=16 to 235=white and a million other people have said the same

Quote:


Again, Samsung's processing is overcompensating. Ideally both color space and the white/black levels should be handled by the Auto option as a single consolidated function, not this two-stage mishmash.


no,no,no they MUST be kept separate! they are two completely different things!

and it is ALWAYS better to let the user chose for instance if they hard locked video into 16-235 in the set and on pc cards what would you do if tried to show native DSLR video which is in 0-255 format? etc.

Quote:


This is why I listed this under the "confusing/misleading" section, because honestly, it is both.

the labeling "Normal" and "Low" are confusing as is the labeling "Auto" I think "Custom" and "Native" make sense though.


Quote:


I can see color gradient variations in fairly fine detail, and as an added bonus, my right eye, having no lens, acts much like the old sunhole in the 1990s video camera viewfinders in that at night any ambient light, no matter how small, enters that eye effectively helping me pick out dark details.

pretty wild

Quote:


It's a freakish physical relation, but I'll be damned if it isn't accurate as hell with colors. This is why I'm probably able to distinguish more of a detail loss than many people can. I'd still rather have two working eyes though. Extra Note: My good eye moves so rapidly back and forth I can actually see flicker at up to 100 Hz on a CRT. Woot!

be glad you didn't grow up in the land of PAL!


Quote:


Fun Fact of the Day: Did you know that on Vizio LCD panels, that the subpixels are shaped like mini-pacmans/chevrons? It's true!

fun additional fact so they were too with the SS panel xx71 series from samsung! and one person even got some older SQ01 variant with pac-men sub-pixels in a 46C630!
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post #723 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hearrean View Post

Not to dispute you, but this could be mis-leading to what "km23's" actual question was. He asked how to change his display to 120 Hz.
The answer is, you can't! The TV is automatically processing the incoming 60 Hz signal & outputting it at 120 Hz. Nothing he does (or doesn't do) will change that. The purpose of the AMP (Auto Motion Plus) is to get rid of 3:2 pulldown when watching movies in 24 fps. The resultant is a "smoothing out" effect which, to some, looks unnatural. So whether he utilizes the AMP or not, he will still be getting material that has been processed at 120 Hz. Just wanted to claify in case it was confusing to him..:-)

Ken

well it's more complicated

AMP=off is what gets rid of 3:2 judder and makes the set do 5:5 for 24Hz input movies

AMP=ON just interpolates or tries to de-judder in the sense of low sampling rate now maybe it could de-judder the judder native in 24Hz which is a very low sampling rate for pans and stuff but samsung says 24Hz mode pushes the AMP processor too much and sometimes makes it too prone to artifacts; in 60Hz input it adds a frame to reduce what relatively little 60Hz judder exists

sometimes it sort of works but to be honest it seems to me it gives away more resolution in real world images than it saves!
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post #724 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 04:08 PM
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hi,
i've been reading this forum for some time now and i just got my samsung 55c6300 with a C panel. i dont get much clouding or flashing but my only concern for me so far is that when i play fifa10 on my ps3, i get some ghosting when the camera moves quickly across the field, i dont get that with movies whatsoever..should i return it and try to get an S panel with the 6500? or thats not gonna fix it? or any setting i can change to try to fix it?
Thanks
Gary
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post #725 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skibum5000 View Post

well it's more complicated

AMP=off is what gets rid of 3:2 judder and makes the set do 5:5 for 24Hz input movies

AMP=ON just interpolates or tries to de-judder in the sense of low sampling rate now maybe it could de-judder the judder native in 24Hz which is a very low sampling rate for pans and stuff but samsung says 24Hz mode pushes the AMP processor too much and sometimes makes it too prone to artifacts; in 60Hz input it adds a frame to reduce what relatively little 60Hz judder exists

sometimes it sort of works but to be honest it seems to me it gives away more resolution in real world images than it saves!

Thanks for correcting my "right brain" mis-fire. I meant to say that the purpose of 120 Hz is to get rid of 3:2 pulldown, not Auto Motion Plus. Good catch... Even though enabling the AMP is supposed to help remove the judder & smooth things out, it seems that none of the makers (including Samsung) have still been able to execute this correctly. The results tend to be artifacts and stuttering/shaking because the processor can't handle it & falls behind.

Ken

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post #726 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjn_ View Post

hi,
i've been reading this forum for some time now and i just got my samsung 55c6300 with a C panel. i dont get much clouding or flashing but my only concern for me so far is that when i play fifa10 on my ps3, i get some ghosting when the camera moves quickly across the field, i dont get that with movies whatsoever..should i return it and try to get an S panel with the 6500? or thats not gonna fix it? or any setting i can change to try to fix it?
Thanks
Gary

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1240730

See if you get any trailing on the black circles.
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post #727 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 08:12 PM
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to tfrabbit

i tried the video and i probably get the trailing everywhere but i see it the most on the grey area, the white and blue area aren't noticeable..
from what i read on the link you gave me, it is the panel right? so would you recommend i change it? or something i can try?
Thanks
Gar
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post #728 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gjn_ View Post

to tfrabbit

i tried the video and i probably get the trailing everywhere but i see it the most on the grey area, the white and blue area aren't noticeable..
from what i read on the link you gave me, it is the panel right? so would you recommend i change it? or something i can try?
Thanks
Gar

you can up the brightness until the trailing is gone, but you will sacrifice the deep black level.
I have set brightness to 57, backlight to 7, gamma to -1 to minimize trailing.

I am tempted to run the test video on some of the floor models in a store if I have time.
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post #729 of 4074 Old 06-04-2010, 11:51 PM
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The trailing issue is because these are PVA panels, and apparently due to the panel lottery this year (ugh), some are far worse than others. Mine is a CN01 panel, supposedly the least cloudy in terms of backlight, yet the first CN01 TV I had backlight bleed so bad that even before the set warmed up it would be so prevalant that dark scenes were unbearable (this is my FIFTH UN32C6500VFX and I'm finally satisfied with it enough to not throw it through a brick wall).

If you see my first post, I listed the white to black transition time, measured by me moving my mouse pointer (black) rapidly away from an open white area (background of a blank webpage/text field). Normally grey-to-grey is the harshest measurement possible that you can do because it's a full color cycle, yet the white to black/black to white measurement is showing that it takes a full 75ms to fade.

What this tells me is that either Samsung's TVs 2010 models have no pixel overdrive (because the internal processor is already acting on the video signal) or it's so shoddy as to be virtually worthless. Keep in mind this is in Game Mode ON, and not in PC Mode. PC Mode has about half the ghosting (barely noticeable), but much more input lag as PC Mode leaves the DNIe processor inside fully active, whereas Game Mode ON does not. This is why I'm in Game Mode ON with my computer and not PC Mode. Which brings me to my next bit of business...

Quote:
hmm does it say that even when not in PC mode? since all the samsungs i have seen are NOT 4:4:4 unless in PC mode, they are all chroma sub-sampled, even in game mode, I believe they may be 4:2:2 unless set to PC mode. I wonder if this is a bug or maybe it's just that they only programmed the color space engine to work with 4:2:2 and thus need to lock out 4:4:4 in all but PC modes???

The display dump was taken during Game Mode ON. Just to make sure this is correct, I'll switch temporarily to PC Mode and redump the EDID data. One thing to note about Game Mode vs. PC Mode is that when using Game Mode, the computer (at least OS X, haven't tried Windows yet from my bootcamp partition) the computer does not handle 720p (1280x720) properly and cuts off the top five or so pixels. Hardly noticeable until you see the tip of the Apple logo missing. Game Mode uses Screen Fit to handle all resolutions, while PC Mode uses 16:9 and does handle 720p correctly from the computer's video card.

On the flip side, using a PS3 as the source, if you use 16:9 as your setting you chop off the top and bottom by a LOT in anything other than Native (1080p), so you must use Screen Fit to see all of the picture data. This is due to the fact that this TV series actually handles Overscan in a reverse fashion compared to how regular computer monitors handle it. No big deal - switching between 16:9 and Screen Fit works flawlessly for that.

Here's that EDID dump (I switched over to PC Mode during this post typing to check. From what I can tell, it's identical (but I'll attach it anyway for you). The only time this TV should be using chroma sub-sampling is with material that is natively 4:2:2. 4:4:4 material should come through, assuming a digital interface (HDMI) is used, unscathed.

Just a reminder though, as noted above, there is noticeable input lag in PC Mode. My mouse pointer feels like it's on a spring loaded mechanism onscreen as it is not instantaneous when being moved. This is why I can't use PC Mode. I simply switch Game Mode ON/OFF when viewing DVDs or movies from my HD as both modes are using the same settings since I set it up that way. I just have to put up with 100-200ms sync lag between audio and video because...well, that's what AMP does as this set mysteriously does not support ARC or Lip Sync (and even if it did support LS, the S/PDIF output necessary for it to be used will only return stereo channels with sources other than HDTV broadcasts/netflix type material).

This TV has the potential to be a giant on the battlefield, but falls short due to the fact that it's mired down in confusing controls, no documentation whatsoever for said controls, no indication of what major "features" are present (lip sync, ARC, x.v.YCC, Deep Color, etc).

I am glad I got the 6500 variant instead of the 6300 version though - having the coaxial tuner be capable of still receiving analog signals from a VCR is a godsend, even if not the "best" picture I can get form said source. The reason for this is that my Yamaha HTR-5860 AVR has both component video and RCA outputs (and s-video, something not seen on a lot of new AVRs and gone from most TVs sadly). Well, Samsung gave us the LOVELY AIO component/RCA connection - that is, you get either the component video connection OR the RCA composite connection, not both. And because I need that component video connection for use as a single output for multiple sources, I can't use the composite out on my AVR.

Why would this matter? Macrovision. I can't watch things taped for me by my grandparents from the VCR because the AVR honors macrovision when upscaling video to the component output (but oddly not when using s-video or straight through). So that means that unless I want to dig around the back of my AV cabinet each time I want to watch the VCR (no way in HELL - that took me five HOURS to get right), I can't watch tapes, yet can see video live from the VCR even if it's going DTV -> VCR -> AVR -> TV. Go figure, eh?

Thankfully I take as much time watching TV as I do contemplating the meaning of life, i.e. I don't. I'd rather watch it on DVD at a higher resolution than TV gets, and at my leisure.

Anywho, here's the PC Mode EDID data dump I promised:

Code:
-----------------------------------------------------
        Valid EDID block: checksum passed

-----------------------------------------------------
------------------- MAIN EDID BLOCK -----------------
-----------------------------------------------------

EDID Version........1.3
Manufacturer........SAM
Product Code........26374 (6706) (0667) 
Serial Number.......00000001

Manufactured........Week 47 of year 2009
Max H Size..........16 cm
Max V Size..........9 cm
Gamma...............2.20

Display Supported Features:
---------------------------


Display type:
------------- 
        RGB 4:4:4 & YCrCb 4:4:4 Color Encoding Formats
        Display is non continuous frequency
        Default color space is not sRGB standard
        Preferred timing mode includes Native Pixel Format


Input signal & sync:
-------------------- 
Digital Input
        Color Bit Depth is undefined 
        Digital Interface is not defined   


Color info:
----------- 
Red x = 0.640  Green x = 0.300  Blue x = 0.150  White x = 0.312
Red y = 0.330  Green y = 0.600  Blue y = 0.060  White y = 0.329

Established Timings:
-------------------- 
                720 x 400 @ 70Hz
                640 x 480 @ 60Hz
                640 x 480 @ 67Hz
                640 x 480 @ 72Hz
                640 x 480 @ 75Hz
                800 x 600 @ 60Hz
                800 x 600 @ 72Hz
                800 x 600 @ 75Hz
                832 x 624 @ 75Hz
                1024 x 768 @ 60Hz
                1024 x 768 @ 70Hz
                1024 x 768 @ 75Hz
                1280 x 1024 @ 75Hz

Manufacturer Reserved Timings:
------------------------------ 
                1152 x 870 @ 75Hz

Standard Timing Identification:
------------------------------- 
        #0:     1152 x 864 @ 75Hz       (714F)
        #1:     1280 x 800 @ 60Hz       (8100)
        #2:     1280 x 960 @ 60Hz       (8140)
        #3:     1280 x 1024 @ 60Hz      (8180)
        #4:     1440 x 900 @ 60Hz       (9500)
        #5:     1440 x 900 @ 75Hz       (950F)
        #6:     1680 x 1050 @ 60Hz      (B300)
        #7:     1600 x 1200 @ 60Hz      (A940)

Monitor Description blocks:
--------------------------- 
        Descriptor #0 - Timing definition:
        Mode = 1920 x 1080 @ 60.000Hz
                Pixel Clock............. 148.50 MHz             Non-Interlaced

                                        Horizontal              Vertical
                Active.................. 1920 pixels            1080 lines
                Front Porch.............   88 pixels               4 lines
                Sync Width..............   44 pixels               5 lines
                Back Porch..............  148 pixels              36 lines
                Blanking................  280 pixels              45 lines
                Total................... 2200 pixels            1125 lines
                Scan Rate...............  67.500 kHz             60.000 Hz

                Image Size..............  160 mm                  90 mm
                Border..................    0 pixels               0 lines

                        Sync: Digital separate with
                                * Positive vertical polarity
                                * Positive horizontal polarity

        Descriptor #1 - Timing definition:
        Mode = 1360 x 768 @ 60.015Hz
                Pixel Clock............. 85.50 MHz              Non-Interlaced

                                        Horizontal              Vertical
                Active.................. 1360 pixels             768 lines
                Front Porch.............   64 pixels               3 lines
                Sync Width..............  112 pixels               6 lines
                Back Porch..............  256 pixels              18 lines
                Blanking................  432 pixels              27 lines
                Total................... 1792 pixels             795 lines
                Scan Rate...............  47.712 kHz             60.015 Hz

                Image Size..............  160 mm                  90 mm
                Border..................    0 pixels               0 lines

                        Sync: Digital separate with
                                * Positive vertical polarity
                                * Positive horizontal polarity

        Descriptor #2 - Monitor limits:
                Horizontal frequency range.......26-81 kHz
                Vertical frequency range.........24-75 Hz
                Maximum bandwidth unspecified

        Descriptor #3 - Monitor name:
                        SAMSUNG


-----------------------------------------------------
------------ EXTENSION EDID BLOCK   1 ---------------
-----------------------------------------------------

CEA-EXT: CEA 861 Series Extension:
----------------------------------
        Revision:..............................3
        First DTD block at offset..............30
        Display Supports:
                overscan
                basic audio
                YCbCr 4:4:4
                YCbCr 4:2:2

Data Block Collection:......1
        Video Type: standard CEA Timings
        #1: 1920 x 1080p @ 59.94/60Hz - 16:9 is native (16)
        #2: 1280 x 720p @ 59.94/60Hz - 16:9 is not native (4)
        #3: 1920 x 1080i @ 59.94/60Hz - 16:9 is not native (5)
        #4: 720 x 480p @ 59.94/60Hz - 16:9 is not native (3)
        #5: 1920 x 1080p @ 23.97/24Hz - 16:9 is not native (32)
        #6: 1920 x 1080p @ 29.97/30Hz - 16:9 is not native (34)

Data Block Collection:......2
        Audio Type - not interpreted

Data Block Collection:......3
        Speaker allocation - not interpreted

Data Block Collection:......4
        Reserved Type - not interpreted

Data Block Collection:......5
        Reserved Type - not interpreted

Data Block Collection:......6
        Found HDMI 1.3a IEEE Registration Identifier

Detailed Timing Blocks - 1 is native

        Detailed Timing Block #1 - Timing definition:
        Mode = 1280 x 720 @ 60.000Hz
                Pixel Clock............. 74.25 MHz              Non-Interlaced

                                        Horizontal              Vertical
                Active.................. 1280 pixels             720 lines
                Front Porch.............  110 pixels               5 lines
                Sync Width..............   40 pixels               5 lines
                Back Porch..............  220 pixels              20 lines
                Blanking................  370 pixels              30 lines
                Total................... 1650 pixels             750 lines
                Scan Rate...............  45.000 kHz             60.000 Hz

                Image Size..............  160 mm                  90 mm
                Border..................    0 pixels               0 lines

                        Sync: Digital separate with
                                * Positive vertical polarity
                                * Positive horizontal polarity

        Detailed Timing Block #2 - Timing definition:
        Mode = 1920 x 540 @ 60.053Hz
                Pixel Clock............. 74.25 MHz              Interlaced

                                        Horizontal              Vertical
                Active.................. 1920 pixels             540 lines
                Front Porch.............   88 pixels               2 lines
                Sync Width..............   44 pixels               5 lines
                Back Porch..............  148 pixels              15 lines
                Blanking................  280 pixels              22 lines
                Total................... 2200 pixels             562 lines
                Scan Rate...............  33.750 kHz             60.053 Hz

                Image Size..............  160 mm                  90 mm
                Border..................    0 pixels               0 lines

                        Sync: Digital separate with
                                * Positive vertical polarity
                                * Positive horizontal polarity

        Detailed Timing Block #3 - Timing definition:
        Mode = 720 x 480 @ 59.940Hz
                Pixel Clock............. 27.00 MHz              Non-Interlaced

                                        Horizontal              Vertical
                Active..................  720 pixels             480 lines
                Front Porch.............   16 pixels               9 lines
                Sync Width..............   62 pixels               6 lines
                Back Porch..............   60 pixels              30 lines
                Blanking................  138 pixels              45 lines
                Total...................  858 pixels             525 lines
                Scan Rate...............  31.469 kHz             59.940 Hz

                Image Size..............  160 mm                  90 mm
                Border..................    0 pixels               0 lines

                        Sync: Digital separate with
                                * Negative vertical polarity
                                * Negative horizontal polarity

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post #730 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nawaf View Post

Thanx westa6969,

I just want to know if it will exceed 200 Watts or not, because I need to take it abroad and buy a power converter for it. what do you think? (i don't have the tv yet)

I have no idea - you may want to contact Samsung on this or a site in Europe - the sister site to FlatpanelsHD.

You have more than the power conversion process as a concern as the broadcast system is different in Europe to the panel has to be able to convert to their "PAL" system to adjust to 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz of N. Amercia.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #731 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 06:03 AM
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thanks i'll try it..but i would like to keep the black level..they are really nice..are we the only one having this problem? you have the 6300 with C panel too btw?
thanks
Gary
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post #732 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 06:31 AM
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Squishy Tia

thanks..so you would suggest i return it until i get one that doesnt trail too much? i would assume the S panel wouldn't have this too much right?

thanks
Gary
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post #733 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 09:02 AM
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I have a 6400 with SQ01 panel.
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post #734 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 09:11 AM
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...thats not any better then.. haha
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post #735 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 09:27 AM
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Squishy Tia

thanks..so you would suggest i return it until i get one that doesnt trail too much? i would assume the S panel wouldn't have this too much right?

thanks
Gary

The S panels are actually worse than the CN01 panels in terms of viewing angle and backlight bleed UNLESS you get uber lucky and have a TV whose screws aren't overtightened to death in which case all you have to worry about is the fact that the S series panels have craptacular viewing angles. And by craptacular, I mean TN panel craptacular. The S panels do have the best PQ by far though, if you can get one that has no backlight bleed/minimal flashlighting.

But yeah, it's like a buyer's lottery too - I went through four TVs before I finally found one that didn't make me want to kick the TV through the wall, down the stairs, out the front door, and do a soccer bobble into the trash can.

2010 is NOT the year of the TV. Everybody and their mother is so goddamned focused on 3D that they literally screw everything else over. I SO wanted the B series 32"er from 2009 but they were sold out everywhere and all that was left was display units. And I will NOT buy display units. We all know how kind the public is with those.

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post #736 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Squishy Tia View Post

The S panels are actually worse than the CN01 panels in terms of viewing angle and backlight bleed UNLESS you get uber lucky and have a TV whose screws aren't overtightened to death in which case all you have to worry about is the fact that the S series panels have craptacular viewing angles. And by craptacular, I mean TN panel craptacular. The S panels do have the best PQ by far though, if you can get one that has no backlight bleed/minimal flashlighting.

But yeah, it's like a buyer's lottery too - I went through four TVs before I finally found one that didn't make me want to kick the TV through the wall, down the stairs, out the front door, and do a soccer bobble into the trash can.

2010 is NOT the year of the TV. Everybody and their mother is so goddamned focused on 3D that they literally screw everything else over. I SO wanted the B series 32"er from 2009 but they were sold out everywhere and all that was left was display units. And I will NOT buy display units. We all know how kind the public is with those.

Sorry, but I must take exception to part of what you're saying. Historically and still the case, the "C" panels are by far the worse at off-angle viewing. But they are known for having the deepest blacks & colors when viewing within what I call the "sweet spot", which is within about 0-15 degrees max. This is not just my opinion, but has been documented for at least the past 2 years. Now the "S" panels do tend to be worse at back-light bleeding/flashlighting as you said; this too has been documented & I talk about it all through this thread.
I have also talked about the fact that none of this is an exact science & there can certainly be many exceptions. But statistically, this is the case & again, documented.
And just a FYI...be very careful here with spelling out certain expletives. I know the moderators & they will delete posts because of it...just a friendly piece of advice.

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post #737 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Now I have a question for those who do not have their 6300 wall-mounted, but instead use it's bezel/stand. Have you noticed any instability at all in the way it's installed in the bezel? When Samsung delivered my newest unit, they assembled the stand & of course I wasn't paying any attention to what they were doing. I let them do that becuase I knew I'd be doing the actual set-up. But it seems very unstable; whenever I clean the panel, I have to hold each side to keep it stable while I wipe. I don't have this issue with my other Samsung models & their stand. I haven't disconnected everything & laid the TV down to check the stand screws, etc yet, so I thought I'd ask here first to see if this is normal with this year's model before I waste time doing it?

Ken

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post #738 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 10:58 AM
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I currently have a Samsung pn63c8000 plasma within my 30 day return policy. I have the infamous buzzing problem on the plasma, and have already exchanged it for another buzzing set. Also I think I may be experiencing some eye fatigue due to the plasma refresh rate. So I am considering other options.

I will be going through this thread but in the meantime can anyone please let me know how the 6300 and 6500 sets are overall?

Any major issues?

Any reason I shouldn't switch from a plasma?

I am not too keen on the panel lottery thing as well. What do most here do buy local and exchange themselves, or do you talk a local store into coming out and swapping your set for you?

Thanks!


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post #739 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 11:20 AM
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Hi, new member here. Just got the 55c6300 (CN01 panel). Unfortunately the 2 places I went to here in NJ only had the C panels. I got the tv from BB, so I have 30 days to decide whether to keep it. I read a good chunk of this thread, so thank you all for the great info. I tried using the settings on page 1 and 10, but they seemed a little too yellow for me. Then again, I'm a newbie to hdtv's so that may be my untrained eye.

Regardless, I am having some problems already with my tv. The PQ looks great, but for some reason the picture looks like it's shaking. Almost like it's a shaky camera, but it's a constant thing (every couple seconds). I haven't bought my PS3 yet, so I can't test any other inputs besides by cablebox. Anybody else have this problem? I tried messing around with game mode and other settings, but nothing was fixing it. Could it be that I'm using a 3-4 year old HDMI cable? Could it be the C panel?

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AGENTS, another user had same issue. It is ur HDMI cable.

About diferent panels, I bet we won't notice any diference unless we use special equipment to measure colors from screen.

Just for the record, my problem was NOT resolved by getting a new HDMI cable. It took a little longer to get the cable, since I got it from monoprice instead of a local store. But the cables came in today and my screen still shakes. I plan on returning this tv. I'll get another one of the same model and see if it's better. If not, I may be getting either the 55LH90 or the 55LE5500.
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post #740 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 11:45 AM
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Does anyone know what the little gas gauge in the lower right hand corner is when you hit the info button? The operators manuals are basically useless at explaining anything. Thanks


By the way, I have a model 55c6400

Things are never so bad they can't get worse!

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post #741 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 11:52 AM
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Couple of questions:
I've read that some people have turned on Game Mode? I do not see this option. Where do I go to turn it on?

Not sure if you figured out how to turn on game mode but it was mentioned in post #703 by Squishy Tia and actually goes into detail about that mode. Game Mode setting (Menu -> Plug&Play -> General -> Game Mode)
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post #742 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 11:58 AM
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Just for the record, my problem was NOT resolved by getting a new HDMI cable. It took a little longer to get the cable, since I got it from monoprice instead of a local store. But the cables came in today and my screen still shakes. I plan on returning this tv. I'll get another one of the same model and see if it's better. If not, I may be getting either the 55LH90 or the 55LE5500.

My 6500 did this today as well while watching cable TV (noticed it a lot when I paused). Tried different cables and sources and nothing seemed to help one bit. I tried my tvix and it was fine. Ultimately hard rebooted the stb and the shaking was gone. Not sure if that helps any.
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post #743 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 12:39 PM
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My 6500 did this today as well while watching cable TV (noticed it a lot when I paused). Tried different cables and sources and nothing seemed to help one bit. I tried my tvix and it was fine. Ultimately hard rebooted the stb and the shaking was gone. Not sure if that helps any.

Pardon the newb question, but what's the stb? And by 'hard booted', do you mean turned off and unplugged for a minute or so? Sorry, I'm new at this.

EDIT: I unplugged my cablebox just as oblio suggested and that worked for me as well. No more shaking! Thanks oblio.
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post #744 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 01:48 PM
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Does anyone know what the little gas gauge in the lower right hand corner is when you hit the info button? The operators manuals are basically useless at explaining anything. Thanks

By the way, I have a model 55c6400

It shows you how much power the LED set uses compared to a CCFL model. It dims the edgelit LEDs that illuminate the display based on the picture content.
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post #745 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 02:13 PM
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OBLIO and AGENTS.... weird!

I aprreciate you both explained what you did to fix it.
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post #746 of 4074 Old 06-05-2010, 04:20 PM
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When someone says the S is a much better panel, is this because of brightness as well? I've noticed that the CN02 panel I have is pretty dark, especially considering what I saw at the stores.

I also see people mention game mode. I chatted with Samsung and they said this model does not have a Game mode.

So far, it really doesn't look like 2010 is the year of the TV. The TV is looking better with tweaks, but it still seems dark to me.
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post #747 of 4074 Old 06-06-2010, 12:38 AM
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Quote:


Here's that EDID dump (I switched over to PC Mode during this post typing to check. From what I can tell, it's identical (but I'll attach it anyway for you). The only time this TV should be using chroma sub-sampling is with material that is natively 4:2:2. 4:4:4 material should come through, assuming a digital interface (HDMI) is used, unscathed.

Whatever it should do the fact is the set does chroma sub-sampling in EVERY mode (even game mode) other than PC mode. In fact, at the very least, many samsungs do this and for years. Certainly it is the case on C650 and some people said they saw it on quite a few models and suspect that all samsungs do it. (someone else suggested that at some other brands may do it too, at least in some models).

Go into photoshop or something and quickly type some pure 255,0,0 or 0,0,255 text on 0,0,0 BG and then type some 0,255,0 text and you will sure that the green text looks pixel smooth and the blue and red text are blurry and as you slowly shift shades away from pure red or blue the text slowly becomes crisper and crisper.

What is odd is that even if I send it 2 pixel wide aligned blocks it still seems to make a slighyl fuzzy interface between different shades of red or blue.




Quote:


Just a reminder though, as noted above, there is noticeable input lag in PC Mode. My mouse pointer feels like it's on a spring loaded mechanism onscreen as it is not instantaneous when being moved. This is why I can't use PC Mode.

there is some lag


i still find it weird that so many SQ01 panels this year render a different amount of green on odd scanlines than even ones!
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post #748 of 4074 Old 06-06-2010, 03:14 AM
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When someone says the S is a much better panel, is this because of brightness as well? I've noticed that the CN02 panel I have is pretty dark, especially considering what I saw at the stores.

Maybe, but the overall picture is crisper, better defined, two different tvs!
It is absurd that the same models can have so different panels.
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post #749 of 4074 Old 06-06-2010, 03:59 AM
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Whatever it should do the fact is the set does chroma sub-sampling in EVERY mode (even game mode) other than PC mode. In fact, at the very least, many samsungs do this and for years. Certainly it is the case on C650 and some people said they saw it on quite a few models and suspect that all samsungs do it. (someone else suggested that at some other brands may do it too, at least in some models).

Go into photoshop or something and quickly type some pure 255,0,0 or 0,0,255 text on 0,0,0 BG and then type some 0,255,0 text and you will sure that the green text looks pixel smooth and the blue and red text are blurry and as you slowly shift shades away from pure red or blue the text slowly becomes crisper and crisper.

What is odd is that even if I send it 2 pixel wide aligned blocks it still seems to make a slighyl fuzzy interface between different shades of red or blue.

there is some lag

i still find it weird that so many SQ01 panels this year render a different amount of green on odd scanlines than even ones!

On the bolded part, I did the equivalant (only much, much faster) by opening up a Terminal window with a black background and white background, and using an RGB slider for the 255,0,0 ; 0,255,0 ; and 0,0,255 text colors. Green was crisp as you said, and sadly you're right - looks like there is indeed chroma subsampling going on in non-PC mode. I checked the blue and red text against that black background and using a dual magnifiying glass setup, saw faint but distinct pixels alongside the actual text giving it an "aura" look (that's what makes it blurry). Activating PC mode created crisp text in all colors. I shall take my hate and eat it. I'll use ketchup though, since I loathe hot sauce.

Using PC mode I get what I'd expect from an IPS panel in terms of color accuracy and crispness. I'm gonna have to figure out a way to deal with the slightly higher input lag on PC mode vs. Game Mode though. Perhaps I can switch to PC mode if I need to do any picture editing/text modifications, and leave it in Game Mode for World of Warcraft (god I wish I could use the AMP with WoW...but the input lag....so...horrible).

I wonder what kind of change this would make for viewing blu-ray on a PS3. Sadly I won't be trying that out anytime soon - the HDMI cables I have are the 22AWG w/ (very) thick net jacket from monoprice.com and um, they're stiff. I'm surprised they aren't broken and/or haven't broken my TV's inputs since I had to basically make a U turn on the cable with the U having a length of <6 inches (necessitated by my CD tower being 2 inches behind my TV's left edge). I'd kill for a 22AWG HDMI cable from monoprice that didn't have that super stiff net jacket, or any super stiff jacket for that matter. Can't beat the price though.

So I tip my hat, eat it, and learn something new. BTW was this what you were referring to with regard to chroma subsampling? I'm attaching two images from a friend's Vizio which does the same thing, only instead of activating PC mode, he had to create a custom 59.94 Hz 1920x1080 resolution in order to force the TV into "dumb" mode to clean up his text.
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post #750 of 4074 Old 06-06-2010, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Now I have a question for those who do not have their 6300 wall-mounted, but instead use it's bezel/stand. Have you noticed any instability at all in the way it's installed in the bezel? When Samsung delivered my newest unit, they assembled the stand & of course I wasn't paying any attention to what they were doing. I let them do that becuase I knew I'd be doing the actual set-up. But it seems very unstable; whenever I clean the panel, I have to hold each side to keep it stable while I wipe. I don't have this issue with my other Samsung models & their stand. I haven't disconnected everything & laid the TV down to check the stand screws, etc yet, so I thought I'd ask here first to see if this is normal with this year's model before I waste time doing it?

Ken

Well, is everyone mad or was my question just lost in the fray? Surely someone can answer this..

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