Official Sony KDL 32EX400 40EX400 46EX400 EX401 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #361 of 770 Old 10-28-2010, 08:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiddu View Post

ok, great. I'm not sure what graphics card I'll put in the desktop yet but it'll probably be something from ATI which should have HDMI out, right now my laptop is still chugging along and I use straight HDMI to the Panny in the living room which works great. It's funny, just a few years ago I wouldn't consider a TV as a monitor but I was looking at these at the store the other day and the prices are so competitive now.

The newly released 6850 and 6870 cards seem to be pretty sweet. They have some newer multimedia features (better decoding for HD content), newer 3d gaming features (new form of AA which gives great performance with great image quality), etc.. They mostly all seem to have an HDMI out so you don't need to use a DVI to HDMI dongle like the other 5xxx and 4xxx series.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #362 of 770 Old 10-30-2010, 09:16 PM
Member
 
zoran0909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Would someone with an EU version of the EX400: 401, 402, 403 try connecting a PC at 50Hz refresh rate.
You can use powerstrip to change the refresh rate.
Please do try VGA and HDMI also.

I ask cause it's seems that the EU version can work at 50Hz refresh rate, but very murky about accepting 50Hz from a PC.
It would be awesome, just use reclock to speed up to 25Hz and off you go.
Thanks!

Found a store that has them but only had limited time with the TV and a laptop (only vga output).
It seems to accept 50Hz signal an would have to do tests to see if the panel actually changes to 50Hz.

I could not for the life of me get the text sharp. It was always a tad blurry.
I tried turning sharpening down, 1:1 pixel mapping, whatever I could find, but try as I might no sharp text or sharp pixels of any kind.

As for the colors, they're...uglyish, over-saturated to hell with the darker tones all clamped
Ok, I probably set it up lousy, as I was just poking through the menu, I'll have to pick up a list of settings to try again another time.
But what I saw, it wasn't so great.
zoran0909 is offline  
post #363 of 770 Old 11-08-2010, 01:28 PM
Newbie
 
HK_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does the ex400 have a game mode?
HK_9 is offline  
post #364 of 770 Old 11-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by HK_9 View Post

Does the ex400 have a game mode?

Yes, Game is one of the options from the different Scene settings. I haven't used it myself since I don't have an xbox or ps3 or do any gaming on my TV, but supposedly it uses a lower latency for this mode.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #365 of 770 Old 11-08-2010, 03:33 PM
Newbie
 
HK_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Cool. I've done a lot of research and i think i'm gonna get the 40ex400. I'll be using it for gaming(PS3), movies, and tv. All the topics about input lag seem to be about pc gaming and it seems that it's pretty acceptable.
HK_9 is offline  
post #366 of 770 Old 11-08-2010, 10:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Yeah this set is pretty good. Has really good black levels for an LCD, the picture quality is also excellent in my opinion. If only someone had some calibrated White Balance for the EX400 line. I've messed around with some settings from an EX403 set (european model) and found their settings were too greenish. Also tried using the settings from an 55EX500 setting that another user used, and although they definitely get rid of some of the red tinge, I don't fully trust them since the 55EX500 most likely has a different panel than mine, and it is a different model line.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #367 of 770 Old 11-08-2010, 10:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

Yeah this set is pretty good. Has really good black levels for an LCD, the picture quality is also excellent in my opinion. If only someone had some calibrated White Balance for the EX400 line. I've messed around with some settings from an EX403 set (european model) and found their settings were too greenish. Also tried using the settings from an 55EX500 setting that another user used, and although they definitely get rid of some of the red tinge, I don't fully trust them since the 55EX500 most likely has a different panel than mine, and it is a different model line.

Hi,

I'm someone who has professional training and an A.S. in broadcast. I haven't found the default white balance for the 32" EX400 to be off. In fact for best whites it's best to use the warm 2 color temp, Warm 1 and above, seem to make the set lean toward too much of a bluish tinge. Try running your set in theater mode, it seems to be the best well rounded calibrated settings sony provides out of the box and overall. Also keep in mind, the CCFL lighting seems to have a pinkish tint by itself, you can notice this by looking through the tv vents on top at the backlights. LEDs may be better all around as a purer light source, if someone wanted LCD over plasma but certainly the backlighting for the these sets isn't horrible. I would say some of the coloring issues people experience is a limitation of LCD technology as a whole (especially non LED). I've compared my sony with my panasonic plasma in the living room, I have to say I'm really impressed Sony's performance because it really stacks up nice to the plasma's performance for an LCD. The plasma panel will always have the purist and most natural look over an LCD though, because it produces it's own light not needing a backlight. Also keep in mind warm 2 is the closest to 65k (natural lighting) and what many people don't realize is warm has a slightly yellowish tint to it like sunlight does. If you're not used to this then your whites will look off, and sometimes the set may even be off depending on the make and model, and whether or not the default calibrations were correct from the factory. I'm sure it's possible for some panels to roll off the line improperly calibrated for that line.

I remember when I watched a CRT, before the days of HD, I got used to whites looking a bit bluish white because i thought it was norma. One thing I did to help, beyond my training was, I'd look at objects in natural sunlight or natural daylight inside, then I'd compare what the same objects on the screen looked like and calibrate that way. It's not a method everyone can do, but it's a realistic calibration method without needing expensive hardware or software. I say not everyone can do it just because not everyone has the professional eye to know how to compare, or even understands about how lighting works and color reproduction.

Anyway I know this is a long post but I hope it's given useful feedback to someone.
MacinMan is offline  
post #368 of 770 Old 11-08-2010, 10:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
I've been recently running with Cinema and it is almost identical to what I had configured. The reason I say a properly calibrated white balance settings would be nice is because I definitely do see a redish tint when looking at the grayscale steps on my test disc. It is not as bad as some other sets and it's pretty darn good, but i'd like it to be even better

I'm using Cinema atm with a backlight of 1. With no other changes aside from turning off Noise Reduction, it looks almost identical to my Custom settings.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #369 of 770 Old 11-09-2010, 12:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

I've been recently running with Cinema and it is almost identical to what I had configured. The reason I say a properly calibrated white balance settings would be nice is because I definitely do see a redish tint when looking at the grayscale steps on my test disc. It is not as bad as some other sets and it's pretty darn good, but i'd like it to be even better

I'm using Cinema atm with a backlight of 1. With no other changes aside from turning off Noise Reduction, it looks almost identical to my Custom settings.

I know what you mean about the reddish tinge, I've noticed with my sony when looking at greyscale it's either too bluish when using cool to warm 1. and slightly yellowish to reddish when using warm 2. I think it's the CCFL backlighting that's throwing off the color balance to be honest. It's not pure white light to begin with. I do find thought the brighter the backlight the whiter whites become though. For example I run with the default setting of 5 for my backlight, even 2 looks ok, if you don't want it so bright. one other thing is try turning on clear white to high under advanced in your custom settings. I personally think it exaggerates things, but it might help you to get rid of the tinge, if your set is slightly off.

BTW if high is too much play with the setting. I would:

1. display a solid white background
2. display a greyscale pattern while looking at the clear white setting. Don't mess with the white balance though, I've tried it just to see how it cleans up and it can get really ugly.

I personally would say is, if you want true color reproduction then LED or plasma is probably a better television since there are no large screen 1080p crts anymore.

Hope this helps!

One more thing, Have you installed the latest firmware for this set? It fixes color issues, especially with HDMI.
I just went and played with my AVS calibration disc on this set. What I did was i put it on the contrast adjustment. this is a pure white background with flashing bars. Anyway I went through the color temps and warm 2 definitely has an over all much too yellow look when looking at a solid white background. My suggestion here is, if clear white doesn't fix up the whites using warm 2 as the color temp. Set the color temp to either Neutral or warm 1. Those look whiter. What seems to throw people off is looking at content vs a test pattern. colors differ so much at times between a solid pattern and actual content.
MacinMan is offline  
post #370 of 770 Old 11-09-2010, 01:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post

I know what you mean about the reddish tinge, I've noticed with my sony when looking at greyscale it's either too bluish when using cool to warm 1. and slightly yellowish to reddish when using warm 2. I think it's the CCFL backlighting that's throwing off the color balance to be honest. It's not pure white light to begin with. I do find thought the brighter the backlight the whiter whites become though. For example I run with the default setting of 5 for my backlight, even 2 looks ok, if you don't want it so bright. one other thing is try turning on clear white to high under advanced in your custom settings. I personally think it exaggerates things, but it might help you to get rid of the tinge, if your set is slightly off.

BTW if high is too much play with the setting. I would:

1. display a solid white background
2. display a greyscale pattern while looking at the clear white setting. Don't mess with the white balance though, I've tried it just to see how it cleans up and it can get really ugly.

I personally would say is, if you want true color reproduction then LED or plasma is probably a better television since there are no large screen 1080p crts anymore.

Hope this helps!

One more thing, Have you installed the latest firmware for this set? It fixes color issues, especially with HDMI.
I just went and played with my AVS calibration disc on this set. What I did was i put it on the contrast adjustment. this is a pure white background with flashing bars. Anyway I went through the color temps and warm 2 definitely has an over all much too yellow look when looking at a solid white background. My suggestion here is, if clear white doesn't fix up the whites using warm 2 as the color temp. Set the color temp to either Neutral or warm 1. Those look whiter. What seems to throw people off is looking at content vs a test pattern. colors differ so much at times between a solid pattern and actual content.

Yeah I'll check out the clear white setting again, but I really don't like messing with any of the artificial enhancement settings. They usually just mess things up more than anything. I mean if I had proper calibration equipment then obviously how it's done is to either go into the service menu and change the white balance or actual RGB settings. Or of course just changing white balance in the advanced menu.

For example, these were the white balance I used and it def makes the grayscale look a bit more accurate but since these were taken from a 55EX500, I rather just stay at the default than mess things up more with incorrect calibration from a different set:

Picture Mode: Custom
Backlight: 2
Picture: 90
Brightness: 52
Color: 50
Hue: 0
Color Temp: Warm 2
Sharpness: Min
Noise Reduction: Off
MPG Noise Red: Off
Cinemotion: Off
Ambient Sensor: Off

Advanced Settings

Adv Contrast Enhancer: Off
Black Corrector: Off
Gamma: -2
Clear White: Off
Live Color: Off


White Balance

RGain -7
GGain 0
BGain -8
RBias 0
GBias 0
BBias +10

Picture size: Full Pixel

Those above settings are kinda close to the default Cinema settings though while watching HD content through either Cable, OTA, or Blu-ray. so /shrug

Edit: Just changed the Clear White settings while looking at the grayscale patter, and yeah it definitely does remove some of the red tinge. I think I'm gonna try it out for a while with Custom and White Balance at default. And yeah, I updated to the 1.512 firmware I think it was.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #371 of 770 Old 11-09-2010, 04:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

Yeah I'll check out the clear white setting again, but I really don't like messing with any of the artificial enhancement settings. They usually just mess things up more than anything. I mean if I had proper calibration equipment then obviously how it's done is to either go into the service menu and change the white balance or actual RGB settings. Or of course just changing white balance in the advanced menu.

For example, these were the white balance I used and it def makes the grayscale look a bit more accurate but since these were taken from a 55EX500, I rather just stay at the default than mess things up more with incorrect calibration from a different set:

Picture Mode: Custom
Backlight: 2
Picture: 90
Brightness: 52
Color: 50
Hue: 0
Color Temp: Warm 2
Sharpness: Min
Noise Reduction: Off
MPG Noise Red: Off
Cinemotion: Off
Ambient Sensor: Off

Advanced Settings

Adv Contrast Enhancer: Off
Black Corrector: Off
Gamma: -2
Clear White: Off
Live Color: Off


White Balance

RGain -7
GGain 0
BGain -8
RBias 0
GBias 0
BBias +10

Picture size: Full Pixel

Those above settings are kinda close to the default Cinema settings though while watching HD content through either Cable, OTA, or Blu-ray. so /shrug

Edit: Just changed the Clear White settings while looking at the grayscale patter, and yeah it definitely does remove some of the red tinge. I think I'm gonna try it out for a while with Custom and White Balance at default. And yeah, I updated to the 1.512 firmware I think it was.

Yeah, those are almost identical to my settings for standard, which I use when not in theater mode. It gives me too different sets to switch between to test content with slightly different settings.
I fully agree with the artificial enhancements. I personally don't use any of the enhancers, I have gotten comfortable with the theater look. I will say as the sony is my secondary TV and the plasma is the primary, that two also makes the sony important to look right, but not as critical. I'm curious, have you had a chance to look at the EX700 in store ? or a friend's house, etc? I know that's LED backlight, it would be interesting to see if the leds improve the whites and overall colors of the panel. I know CCFL isn't true white light so you'll always be plagued by that. Unfortunately, because you're starting off with an artificial white light source, that's probably why sony includes so many enhancements to the TV to help balance that out.

Personally I don't like LCDs well enough to trust one as my main display, that's why I ended up not getting a new one as my primary TV. I would have preferred CRT, but because of today's technology and how hard it is to manufacture large HD crts that would put out 1080p or higher, that's where plasma screens fill the gap. Either way, the sony Has really given me a new prospective on how LCDs have progressed in technology though. And they don't make 32" plasma screens so for that size you're kind of stuck with an LCD.

P.S. I don't think the sony has a service menu does it? I know my panasonic does and that's how i fixed it's unbalanced out of the box color, i found a professional calibration someone posted for a slightly different model but was recommended for mine as well and it's great. That's the difference though, with panasonic anyway, the display technology is the same, what differed more was the unit calibrated has an anti glare coating on the screen mine doesn't. With Different LCD models it's not always that simple. By the way do you know if the sony supports 4:4:4 color? the panasonic does, but I'm not sure about the sony. The tv i have doesn't support deep color, I found that in sony's specs, but the panasonic does, so it's like what one tv has the other doesn't when it comes to features like that in my case.
MacinMan is offline  
post #372 of 770 Old 11-09-2010, 02:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post

Yeah, those are almost identical to my settings for standard, which I use when not in theater mode. It gives me too different sets to switch between to test content with slightly different settings.
I fully agree with the artificial enhancements. I personally don't use any of the enhancers, I have gotten comfortable with the theater look. I will say as the sony is my secondary TV and the plasma is the primary, that two also makes the sony important to look right, but not as critical. I'm curious, have you had a chance to look at the EX700 in store ? or a friend's house, etc? I know that's LED backlight, it would be interesting to see if the leds improve the whites and overall colors of the panel. I know CCFL isn't true white light so you'll always be plagued by that. Unfortunately, because you're starting off with an artificial white light source, that's probably why sony includes so many enhancements to the TV to help balance that out.

Personally I don't like LCDs well enough to trust one as my main display, that's why I ended up not getting a new one as my primary TV. I would have preferred CRT, but because of today's technology and how hard it is to manufacture large HD crts that would put out 1080p or higher, that's where plasma screens fill the gap. Either way, the sony Has really given me a new prospective on how LCDs have progressed in technology though. And they don't make 32" plasma screens so for that size you're kind of stuck with an LCD.

P.S. I don't think the sony has a service menu does it? I know my panasonic does and that's how i fixed it's unbalanced out of the box color, i found a professional calibration someone posted for a slightly different model but was recommended for mine as well and it's great. That's the difference though, with panasonic anyway, the display technology is the same, what differed more was the unit calibrated has an anti glare coating on the screen mine doesn't. With Different LCD models it's not always that simple. By the way do you know if the sony supports 4:4:4 color? the panasonic does, but I'm not sure about the sony. The tv i have doesn't support deep color, I found that in sony's specs, but the panasonic does, so it's like what one tv has the other doesn't when it comes to features like that in my case.

I mean I've looked at an EX700 at a store, but can't do any checks or run any patterns there, plus they are all set to vivid mode usually. Also I believe EX700 is edge-lit LED, and I'd probably only get an LED set if it's a full-array LED set. I'm actually thinking of picking up a Panasonic Plasma TC-P42S2 if I can find one for a good price ($549.99 + tax during Black Friday is the best I've found so far). I know Panasonic's have the rising blacks after 2k hours or whatever and some other things that plague plasma like image retention and floating blacks yadda yadda, but I think overall the positives outweigh the negatives (better motion resolution, better blacks even post rise, yadda yadda)

Yes, the EX400 has a service mode. I've only gone in to check what panel i'm using, the EX500 line usually uses Samsung or Sharp panels, mine is using an AUOptronics panel.

There's 2 service menu's. This code you enter with the TV off on the remote:

Display, 5, Vol +, Power

Then with the TV on there is a different service menu, again with the remote (this one gives you your panel):

Left > Right > Muting > Center + > Muting > Menu

My panel is a T315HW04 V0 which is an AUO Panel.

BTW, you can really mess things up in the service menu if you are not careful. I'm sure you know this but for any others reading.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #373 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Newbie
 
darko135's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
anyone else have color banding issues with the 40ex400? does that update fix this?
darko135 is offline  
post #374 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 01:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko135 View Post

anyone else have color banding issues with the 40ex400? does that update fix this?

What exactly is color banding? is it like color bleeding? I haven't had issues with color bleeding or anything on my 32EX400. I have the latest firmware installed, without issues.
MacinMan is offline  
post #375 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 02:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko135 View Post

anyone else have color banding issues with the 40ex400? does that update fix this?

http://easyhdtv.blogspot.com/2007/02...v-display.html

Is that what you are referring to? And I haven't really noticed any problems like that. Give an exact description with the source that is giving you this problem, maybe more information can be digged up.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #376 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 02:28 PM
Newbie
 
calaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi guys,
I am wondering if the EX400 can decode a PAL signal.
I did a google search on this forum and on the web and found nothing conclusive...
calaf is offline  
post #377 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 04:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by calaf View Post

Hi guys,
I am wondering if the EX400 can decode a PAL signal.
I did a google search on this forum and on the web and found nothing conclusive...

well as you know, when it comes to HD, there is no longer a PAL or NTSC signal difference it's all the same. When it comes to standard def video such as dvds I don't think the U.S models of any tv support pal, if you're in a country that supports pal as the standard, then Yes, it should.
MacinMan is offline  
post #378 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 04:32 PM
Newbie
 
calaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post

well as you know, when it comes to HD, there is no longer a PAL or NTSC signal difference it's all the same. When it comes to standard def video such as dvds I don't think the U.S models of any tv support pal, if you're in a country that supports pal as the standard, then Yes, it should.

yes the question was specifically because I am thinking about getting a player compatible with region 2 PAL DVDs (LG BH200, in particular), and I was afraid it would be no use if the EX400 can't handle the PAL signal. And, I should have added, I bought the EX400 in the US
calaf is offline  
post #379 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 04:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I also had a question that I don't remember asking or getting answered here, Does the sony ex400 support a YCbCr 4:4:4 input signal over HDMI? my sony devices don't give me as much useful info as my panasonic set up. The panasonic will actually tell me everything the player is sending to the TV It sends what the tv supports. I haven't found anything on my sony blu-ray player or the TV that gives me such detail info, and I haven't found detailed tech specs online either. So I wondered if anyone knew the amount of color signal this tv could accept over HDMI.

Thanks
MacinMan is offline  
post #380 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 04:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by calaf View Post

yes the question was specifically because I am thinking about getting a player compatible with region 2 PAL DVDs (LG BH200, in particular), and I was afraid it would be no use if the EX400 can't handle the PAL signal. And, I should have added, I bought the EX400 in the US

If you live in the US, I think the only way to get PAL to play is on a computer with either an optical drive set to a PAL region or files off the HD in PAL format, I've gotten PAL files to play on a mac before using quictime player, probably vlc does too. For stand alone units I know of a few DVD players sold a few years ago that would play pal, but most were portable players with their own screen. Personally I've never seen a pal TV sold in the us.
MacinMan is offline  
post #381 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 04:39 PM
Newbie
 
calaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post

If you live in the US, I think the only way to get PAL to play is on a computer with either an optical drive set to a PAL region or files off the HD in PAL format, I've gotten PAL files to play on a mac before using quictime player, probably vlc does too. For stand alone units I know of a few DVD players sold a few years ago that would play pal, but most were portable players with their own screen. Personally I've never seen a pal TV sold in the us.

I see, thanks!
calaf is offline  
post #382 of 770 Old 11-10-2010, 05:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
fairchild99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post
I also had a question that I don't remember asking or getting answered here, Does the sony ex400 support a YCbCr 4:4:4 input signal over HDMI? my sony devices don't give me as much useful info as my panasonic set up. The panasonic will actually tell me everything the player is sending to the TV It sends what the tv supports. I haven't found anything on my sony blu-ray player or the TV that gives me such detail info, and I haven't found detailed tech specs online either. So I wondered if anyone knew the amount of color signal this tv could accept over HDMI.

Thanks
When I'm connected through my videocard (an ATI XFX branded HD4890) and connected through a DVI-HDMI adapter, I have 4 different Pixel Format options available to me. I can have my card send out the following signals and my EX400 can display them all: YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2, RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB), RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format PC Standard (Full RGB)

My guess is your device is sending YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 via HDMI. The good blu-ray players for instance will send out the data through YCbCr 4:2:2 And yeah, alot of TV's allow you to change the dynamic range by adjusting the black level. Lg's, Samsung's, Panasonic's let you change the black level to low or high.

When I'm going to watch a movie on my TV through my PC, I have it setup for the RGB 4:4:4 PC Standard (Full RGB). The reason is because the YCbCR's has to be converted to RGB then back again with the current ATI cards. If my card had a direct HDMI out (like the Nvidia cards) then I guess it would be ok to choose one of the YCbCr methods.

Anyways, I'll copy and link the whole article which is written up by the creator/developer of the best renderer for viewing video through PC's atm (Madshi's MadVR)

Quote:
I've seen many comments about HDMI 1.3 DeepColor being useless, about 8bit being enough (since even Blu-Ray is only 8bit to start with), about dithering not being worth the effort etc. Is all of that true?

It depends. If a source device (e.g. a Blu-Ray player) decodes the YCbCr source data and then passes it to the TV/projector without any further processing, HDMI 1.3 DeepColor is mostly useless. Not totally, though, because the Blu-Ray data is YCbCr 4:2:0 which HDMI cannot transport (not even HDMI 1.4). We can transport YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 via HDMI, so the source device has to upsample the chroma information before it can send the data via HDMI. It can either upsample it in only one direction (then we get 4:2:2) or into both directions (then we get 4:4:4). Now a really good chroma upsampling algorithm outputs a higher bitdepth than what you feed it. So the 8bit source suddenly becomes more than 8bit. Do you still think passing YCbCr in 8bit is good enough? Fortunately even HDMI 1.0 supports sending YCbCr in up to 12bit, as long as you use 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4. So no problem.

But here comes the big problem: Most good video processsing algorithms produce a higher bitdepth than you feed them. So if you actually change the luma (brightness) information or if you even convert the YCbCr data to RGB, the original 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0 mutates into a higher bitdepth data stream. Of course we can still transport that via HDMI 1.0-1.2, but we will have to dumb it down to the max, HDMI 1.0-1.2 supports.

For us HTPC users it's even worse: The graphics cards do not offer any way for us developers to output untouched YCbCr data. Instead we have to use RGB. Ok, e.g. in ATI's control panel with some graphics cards and driver versions you can activate YCbCr output, *but* it's rather obvious that internally the data is converted to RGB first and then later back to YCbCr, which is a usually not a good idea if you care about max image quality. So the only true choice for us HTPC users is to go RGB. But converting YCbCr to RGB increases bitdepth. Not only from 8bit to maybe 9bit or 10bit. Actually YCbCr -> RGB conversion gives us floating point data! And not even HDMI 1.4 can transport that. So we have to convert the data down to some integer bitdepth, e.g. 16bit or 10bit or 8bit. The problem is that doing that means that our precious video data is violated in some way. It loses precision. And that is where dithering comes to rescue. Dithering allows to "simulate" a higher bitdepth than we really have. Using dithering means that we can go down to even 8bit without losing too much precision. However, dithering is not magic, it works by adding noise to the source. So the preserved precision comes at the cost of increased noise. Fortunately thanks to film grain we're not too sensitive to fine image noise. Furthermore the amount of noise added by dithering is so low that the noise itself is not really visible. But the added precision *is* visible, at least in specific test patterns (see image comparisons above).

So does dithering help in real life situations? Does it help with normal movie watching?

Well, that is a good question. I can say for sure that in most movies in most scenes dithering will not make any visible difference. However, I believe that in some scenes in some movies there will be a noticeable difference. Test patterns may exaggerate, but they rarely lie. Furthermore, preserving the maximum possible precision of the original source data is for sure a good thing, so there's not really any good reason to not use dithering.

So what purpose/benefit does HDMI DeepColor have? It will allow us to lower (or even totally eliminate) the amount of dithering noise added without losing any precision. So it's a good thing. But the benefit of DeepColor over using 8bit RGB output with proper dithering will be rather small.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

fairchild99 is offline  
post #383 of 770 Old 11-11-2010, 04:59 AM
Newbie
 
darko135's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

[url]
Is that what you are referring to? And I haven't really noticed any problems like that. Give an exact description with the source that is giving you this problem, maybe more information can be digged up.

yep that exactly what im talking about, the colors look separated (like the first two parts of the image at that link) instead of smooth like the third part, ill do the update and see if it fixes it
darko135 is offline  
post #384 of 770 Old 11-11-2010, 05:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MacinMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
thanks fairchild99 that was some very useful information. I am a bit confused though. From what i've heard from some people is YCbcr 4:4:4 is the best color output when using a stand alone unit to the TV over HDMI. This article sounds like RGB is the best output. What I'm a bit fuzzy on is, is this talking about playing content on a computer only, or both computer playback and setop box playback.
MacinMan is offline  
post #385 of 770 Old 11-11-2010, 06:40 AM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinMan View Post

thanks fairchild99 that was some very useful information. I am a bit confused though. From what i've heard from some people is YCbcr 4:4:4 is the best color output when using a stand alone unit to the TV over HDMI. This article sounds like RGB is the best output. What I'm a bit fuzzy on is, is this talking about playing content on a computer only, or both computer playback and setop box playback.

There is not an "across the board" output format that works the best in all situations (various players, A/V processors, displays, etc). If you look in this thread, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131344, you'll find explanations of how to determine the best output format from your player and why. Stacey and Don are experts and do a great job explaining things with examples, pics and such. For discs, the only thing you have no control over is the chroma upsampling of the YCbCr 4:2:0 -> YCbCr 4:2:2 done by the decoders. And, ultimately, the YCbCr has to be converted to RGB in order to be displayed. The linked thread above has a bunch of good info and pointers.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #386 of 770 Old 11-11-2010, 07:04 AM
Member
 
zoran0909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was under the impression that EX400 can't display RGB 4:4:4?
Could someone post test results?
zoran0909 is offline  
post #387 of 770 Old 11-11-2010, 09:42 AM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoran0909 View Post

I was under the impression that EX400 can't display RGB 4:4:4?
Could someone post test results?

It has to convert input to RGB 4:4:4 in order to display it. And, RGB by definition is 4:4:4. So saying it can't accept RGB 4:4:4 is the same as saying it can't accept RGB - which would be very odd, but not impossible. YCbCr 4:2:0 and YCbCr 4:2:2 are just ways to "compress" pixel information so that it uses less storage space. Your eyes are less sensitive to changes in chroma (the Cb and Cr) than luma (Y, black and white). That's why the luma component is not "compressed".

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #388 of 770 Old 11-11-2010, 11:05 AM
Member
 
zoran0909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

It has to convert input to RGB 4:4:4 in order to display it. And, RGB by definition is 4:4:4. So saying it can't accept RGB 4:4:4 is the same as saying it can't accept RGB - which would be very odd, but not impossible. YCbCr 4:2:0 and YCbCr 4:2:2 are just ways to "compress" pixel information so that it uses less storage space. Your eyes are less sensitive to changes in chroma (the Cb and Cr) than luma (Y, black and white). That's why the luma component is not "compressed".

larry

Thanks, for the info, but you misunderstood me. I said 'display', not accept.
Most sets accept a wide range of inputs, but what they actually display is a different matter altogether.
As I'll use only a PC for feeding the set I'd like it to accept AND display 4:4:4 color.

One can use the test from belle-nuit to check for proper 4:4:4 color display.
As per this post, you can see how bad it can get.
zoran0909 is offline  
post #389 of 770 Old 11-13-2010, 12:52 PM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoran0909 View Post

Thanks, for the info, but you misunderstood me. I said 'display', not accept.
Most sets accept a wide range of inputs, but what they actually display is a different matter altogether.
As I'll use only a PC for feeding the set I'd like it to accept AND display 4:4:4 color.

One can use the test from belle-nuit to check for proper 4:4:4 color display.
As per this post, you can see how bad it can get.

Ok, I see. But saying "displaying 4:4:4" is confusing. From a quick glance at your links it looks like people are validating whether chroma upsampling from 4:2:2 is working properly. RGB (4:4:4) is used to lite the pixels but problems usually happen when taking YCbCr 4:2:2 (and even decoders may do 4:2:0 -> 4:2:2 incorrectly) and converting to YCbCr 4:4:4. Or, are you saying if you feed RGB (4:4:4) from a PC (that was from 4:4:4 video data) to a panel it doesn't display properly (no upsampling being done)? If so, it seems "they"' found another way to screw up video.


larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #390 of 770 Old 11-13-2010, 07:31 PM
Member
 
zoran0909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post
Ok, I see. But saying "displaying 4:4:4" is confusing.
..snip..
Or, are you saying if you feed RGB (4:4:4) from a PC (that was from 4:4:4 video data) to a panel it doesn't display properly (no upsampling being done)? If so, it seems "they"' found another way to screw up video.
Yes, I meant displaying from a PC (or other RGB input), not upsampling.
If you haven't yet heard about, I'd guess it affects about 70-80% TV's.
It makes a huge difference when displaying anything other than not upsampled movies (you can upsample with say MadVR).

The worst case for games (which is a common application) is, say a horizontal scrolling, where your straight lines can have that fat-thin effect, rendering one line changes width from 1px to 2px while scrolling. It looks nasty.
zoran0909 is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Displays , Sony Bravia Kdl 40ex500 Series 40 Inch Lcd Tv Black , Sony Bravia Ex 400 Series 46 Inch Lcd Tv , Sony Bravia Kdl 55ex500 Series 55 Inch Lcd Tv Black , Lcd Hdtv
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off