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post #181 of 771 Old 06-21-2010, 08:49 PM
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I picked it up today.

WOW. WOW. WOW.

I can't believe how good of a monitor this is. All the colors are perfect, apart from the red which is a little oversaturated (not that big of a deal). It puts the Samsung PX2370 I tried yesterday to shame. Blacks are fantastic...no problem displaying blacks as low as 1, and whites as white as 254. The glossy/matte hybrid screen makes this perfect to use in a moderately lit room. Honestly, I'm amazed how good the blacks are. Not quite the level of our 85U Panny Plasma, but honestly, it's not far off at all.

As far as the PS3/360 go, there's no comparison...this absolutely demolishes any monitor on the market, thanks to the great video processing.

I love the settings menus...so responsive, and they let you change all the settings you need (no preset gamma settings like Samsungs).

The only downside to the TV is the low viewing angles. The corners of the screen are visibly darker than the center from where I'm sitting. I'm about 2.5'-3' away from the 32inch EX400. Small price to pay for what is otherwise a fantastic television.
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post #182 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 07:46 AM
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Alright, so my only real concern so far:

The TV makes a bit of a buzzing sound when on...I assume this is the fluorescent backlight. It's not a huge deal, as I don't notice it when there's sound or when I'm wearing my headphones. I figured I'm better off keeping the TV, because I might exchange it and end up with a worse problem than that.

Any thoughts?
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post #183 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

Alright, so my only real concern so far:

The TV makes a bit of a buzzing sound when on...I assume this is the fluorescent backlight. It's not a huge deal, as I don't notice it when there's sound or when I'm wearing my headphones. I figured I'm better off keeping the TV, because I might exchange it and end up with a worse problem than that.

Any thoughts?

I have a 40EX400 and it is silent.

BTW, I also have the dark corners, as well as somewhat dark edges.
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post #184 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 08:48 AM
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Hmmmm...I really don't know if I should return it. I really am afraid I'll end up with something worse like a dead pixel or possibly a worse panel. Maybe I could pick another one up from a different store without returning this one and keep the better of the two.

@ BTT917, what backlight setting are you running, and do you have the ambient light sensor on?

I'm going to try out different settings when I get home tonight...I'm guessing the issue has to do with the dimming resistors or PWM circuitry.
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post #185 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

@ BTT917, what backlight setting are you running, and do you have the ambient light sensor on?

I'm going to try out different settings when I get home tonight...I'm guessing the issue has to do with the dimming resistors or PWM circuitry.

I couldn't use the ambient light sensor for PC use because sitting close to the screen and moving back and forth a little,
the backlight would constantly change brightness from the sensor being blocked and then unblocked.

Mine didn't have any buzzing except from the speakers, even when the volume was set to minimum.

Settings that I used for DVI/HDMI PC use were.

Ambient Sensor - Off
Power Saving - Low (Altering this, affects other settings.)
Scene - Graphics
Backlight - PC night 1, day 2. (OTA HDTV 2 along with scene change.)
Picture - 85 (anything higher clipped whites using SD DVE.)
Brightness - 55 (Using SD DVE)
Color - 50
Hue - Default
Color Temp - Warm 1
White Balance - Default
Sharpness - Default
Gamma - (-1)
Live Color - Off (Makes skin tones ugly)
Black Corrector - Low or Off (Will loose some shadow detail at higher settings, and affect blending.)
Clear White - Off (Whitens whites, affects color temp of white)
A.C.E. - Low or Off
Noise Reduction - Both Off
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post #186 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

I couldn't use the ambient light sensor for PC use because sitting close to the screen and moving back and forth a little, the backlight would constantly change brightness.

Mine didn't have any buzzing except from the speakers, even when the volume was set to minimum.

Settings that I used for DVI/HDMI PC use were.

Ambient Sensor - Off
Power Saving - Low (Altering this, throws off other settings.)
Scene - Graphics
Backlight - night 1, day 2
Picture - 85 (anything higher clipped whites.)
Brightness - 55 (Using SD DVE)
Color - 50
Hue - Default
Color Temp - Warm 1
Sharpness - Min.
Gamma - (-1)
Live color - Off (Makes skin tones ugly)
Black Corrector - Low or Off
Clear White - Off (Whitens whites, affects color temp of white)
A.C.E. - Low or Off
Noise Reduction - Both Off

Thanks. Very close to what I set my settings to yesterday, except I have brightness at 51 (anything lower clips blacks), and contrast at 98 (anything higher clips whites). Funny that our TVs are so different in the contrast settings...though I suppose maybe my video card is doing some funky color space compression (0-255 to 13-241 or whatever the non full color space is).

I'm able to get all the colors dead on in terms of gamma but the red...any luck there? I guess I'll try running DVE tonight to get some better results.

I'm really impressed with the TV though. Other than the lack of uniformity across the screen, the blacks and whites are damned good for an LCD...almost comparable to our Panny 85U. The TV also maintains fantastic blacks during the day, which is a nice bonus. The screen material is great...not quite matte, but neither is it glossy. You get a lot of the color pop of a glossy screen, but without the glare.

I've been so unimpressed by 120Hz, LED backlighting, and 3D that I've forgotten to keep an eye on plain jane LCD TVs.
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post #187 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 10:29 AM
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Oh I do have one question actually: when watching movies on the computer, full screen or just watching through Media Player Classic will make the TV detect my PC as a non PC source (says something like "Source Select"). That's not really a terrible thing since it allows the TV to turn back on all the video processing to improve the IQ, but I'm not really worried about video IQ through my PC. Is there any way to avoid this? Not a deal breaker if not, but it would be nice to not have to have the screen go black for 1 second every time I switch from full screen video.
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post #188 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

Thanks. Very close to what I set my settings to yesterday, except I have brightness at 51 (anything lower clips blacks), and contrast at 98 (anything higher clips whites). Funny that our TVs are so different in the contrast settings...though I suppose maybe my video card is doing some funky color space compression (0-255 to 13-241 or whatever the non full color space is).

That's why calibration needs to be done with the specific equipment feeding the display. Using someone else's numbers only get you close.

My video card is an antique Nvidia GeForce FX 5200 with a newer driver.
I also get vastly different results with the MCE DVD player vs. the OEM InterVideo Win 5 player.
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post #189 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 03:31 PM
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I'm glad you pointed me to the power saving setting. I was keeping the ambient sensor on mainly because the TV was too bright, even with the backlight at the lowest. It's perfect now with Power Saving - Low and Backlight - 1.
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post #190 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 04:41 PM
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Hi Exodu,

Glad that u want the LCD that fits your needs.

Can I ask why chose this TV over for example a panny or Sharp?

Are u using this TV as pc monitor too?
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post #191 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tand View Post

Hi Exodu,

Glad that u want the LCD that fits your needs.

Can I ask why chose this TV over for example a panny or Sharp?

Are u using this TV as pc monitor too?

I am using it as a PC monitor, and as a television (running a cable box, PS3, 360, Wii). This was the only TV that seemed to fit both my needs in terms of input, as well as allowing me to run the PC through HDMI with 1:1 pixel mapping.

Let me tell you, I love this set. I can even run 720p content off the PC fine, with great scaling, and the ability to completely eliminate overscan (+1 setting in the menus). What really sets this TV apart from the Samsungs, Pannys, and Sharps I've used (own a 720p Sharp Aquos, 85U Panny Plasma, and Samsung 2232 monitor) is the incredible depth of settings available. The TV really gives me control over just about anything I need...calibrating it was incredibly easy. This is my first ever Sony TV, and I have to say I'm quite impressed. What this TV may lose in PQ (I don't know if it does, just saying "may"), it makes up for it in sheer versatility. You've won a customer, Sony.

I didn't research the Panny at all, but afaik, the Sharp and Samsung TVs aren't so great when it comes to input lag, so I ignored those models.

Terrible overexposed iPhone shot (it's really not that blindingly bright), but here's my setup:

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post #192 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 08:56 PM
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Dougette: Yes, I had it set to Cinema, which locks advanced settings. I'm on Custom now.

ex0du5: What brightness do you have yours on? I can barely (if at all) make out squares #1 and #2 on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php this test with backlight at 5 and brightness at 66.

Edit: Found your brightness... Backlight at 1 and Brightness at 51?

With those settings, I can only see the last row. I presume your result is better? I have the 40".
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post #193 of 771 Old 06-22-2010, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

Hmmmm...I really don't know if I should return it. I really am afraid I'll end up with something worse like a dead pixel or possibly a worse panel. Maybe I could pick another one up from a different store without returning this one and keep the better of the two.

@ BTT917, what backlight setting are you running, and do you have the ambient light sensor on?

I'm going to try out different settings when I get home tonight...I'm guessing the issue has to do with the dimming resistors or PWM circuitry.

For TV (OTA) viewing I have the backlight at 4 or 5, for BD it is at the minimum: both settings are silent. Ambient light sensor is Off.
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post #194 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

Dougette: Yes, I had it set to Cinema, which locks advanced settings. I'm on Custom now.

ex0du5: What brightness do you have yours on? I can barely (if at all) make out squares #1 and #2 on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php this test with backlight at 5 and brightness at 66.

Edit: Found your brightness... Backlight at 1 and Brightness at 51?

With those settings, I can only see the last row. I presume your result is better? I have the 40".

Well your settings might differ according to your specific TV or your input device. I'm using a PC, so it's possibly my PC is outputting to a larger color space than traditional AV devices, or perhaps yours is, meaning my settings would be different by a significant margin. Basically, your PC might be set up to either compress or expand the RGB space when mine is doing the opposite.

I can barely see square 2, but I can never see square 1. Not bad, really...that's only two levels of black missing (our Panny 85U performs similarly). Just bring the brightness down to the point where the background doesn't get darker. If I bring my brightness down 1 point, the background doesn't get darker, but the rest of the screen does. If I bring it up one point, then the background gets slightly lighter. Similarly with the contrast page, I can barely see 253, but can't see 254, so it's not perfect, but quite good regardless.

About the buzzing: I just realized I was really attuned to it because it was in the morning when my hearing was most sensitive, and my room was completely quiet. I have a lot of trouble picking out the noise otherwise, so I'm not going to worry about it.

------

edit: there's one major advantage to using a TV over a monitor that I hadn't really thought of: the ability to run in non-native resolution. I can run games at 720p if I require additional performance, and the image quality is still perfectly acceptable (at least with anti-aliasing). With a monitor, anything other than native res looks absolutely awful.

------

Finally, as for playing GH on this thing, I haven't tried it yet, but I can tell it's going to be a problem. Not because of input lag, but because of audio lag. I'm sending audio over HDMI (using SPDIF passthrough), and I have my headphones plugged in directly to my soundcard. The headphone audio comes out before the TV audio, meaning there's some audio lag in the speakers. This is pretty usual for a TV (in fact, all of the HDTVs I own have significant audio lag), but can be remedied by using external speakers. With my Sharp Aquos, I simply use the audio-out from the TV and it's fine, so hopefully that's the case here as well. This TV has both RCA out and optical out, so all needs should be covered if this bypasses the lag.
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post #195 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

Well your settings might differ according to your specific TV or your input device. I'm using a PC, so it's possibly my PC is outputting to a larger color space than traditional AV devices, or perhaps yours is, meaning my settings would be different by a significant margin. Basically, your PC might be set up to either compress or expand the RGB space when mine is doing the opposite.

I can barely see square 2, but I can never see square 1. Not bad, really...that's only two levels of black missing (our Panny 85U performs similarly). Just bring the brightness down to the point where the background doesn't get darker. If I bring my brightness down 1 point, the background doesn't get darker, but the rest of the screen does. If I bring it up one point, then the background gets slightly lighter. Similarly with the contrast page, I can barely see 253, but can't see 254, so it's not perfect, but quite good regardless.

About the buzzing: I just realized I was really attuned to it because it was in the morning when my hearing was most sensitive, and my room was completely quiet. I have a lot of trouble picking out the noise otherwise, so I'm not going to worry about it.

------

edit: there's one major advantage to using a TV over a monitor that I hadn't really thought of: the ability to run in non-native resolution. I can run games at 720p if I require additional performance, and the image quality is still perfectly acceptable (at least with anti-aliasing). With a monitor, anything other than native res looks absolutely awful.

------

Finally, as for playing GH on this thing, I haven't tried it yet, but I can tell it's going to be a problem. Not because of input lag, but because of audio lag. I'm sending audio over HDMI (using SPDIF passthrough), and I have my headphones plugged in directly to my soundcard. The headphone audio comes out before the TV audio, meaning there's some audio lag in the speakers. This is pretty usual for a TV (in fact, all of the HDTVs I own have significant audio lag), but can be remedied by using external speakers. With my Sharp Aquos, I simply use the audio-out from the TV and it's fine, so hopefully that's the case here as well. This TV has both RCA out and optical out, so all needs should be covered if this bypasses the lag.

Wow. You're getting far better results than I am, then. I'm also using a PC. I wonder where the difference is coming from? Using the EX400, HDMI1 (tried HDMI4 with the same result). Totally different panel, maybe? I'd love if I could get your black quality.
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post #196 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 03:46 PM
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First major problem: updated my video drivers today (as well as CS Source). The game loads up at 1080p, but it's like the TV is downscaling and upscaling it again. It looks absolutely awful.

When I load up the game it does the "Scene Select has been changed" message. I really need a way to bypass this.

edit: found out how to disable the scene select. I guess my problem has to do with the new NVidia drivers then.
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post #197 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 07:44 PM
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NVidia drivers were indeed the problem. Reverted to the 197 drivers and the issue is gone. I swear NVidia has screwed up nearly every driver release in the past year...it's frustrating. I'm sticking with these drivers indefinitely, until I upgrade my GTX 275.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

Wow. You're getting far better results than I am, then. I'm also using a PC. I wonder where the difference is coming from? Using the EX400, HDMI1 (tried HDMI4 with the same result). Totally different panel, maybe? I'd love if I could get your black quality.

I guess I might have lucked out with a better panel. I'm seriously shocked at the PQ of this thing, for the money. I actually think the black levels might be just as good as our Panny plasma, now that I have it properly calibrated.

Heres a poor overexposed iPhone shot again.

It kind of gives you the idea of the blacks I'm getting (the left and right portions of the screen are black, and nearly matching the border of the TV).

I'll try to get a proper camera shot tomorrow.
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post #198 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 08:06 PM
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NVidia drivers were indeed the problem. Reverted to the 197 drivers and the issue is gone. I swear NVidia has screwed up nearly every driver release in the past year...it's frustrating. I'm sticking with these drivers indefinitely, until I upgrade my GTX 275.



I guess I might have lucked out with a better panel. I'm seriously shocked at the PQ of this thing, for the money. I actually think the black levels might be just as good as our Panny plasma, now that I have it properly calibrated.

Heres a poor overexposed iPhone shot again.

It kind of gives you the idea of the blacks I'm getting (the left and right portions of the screen are black, and nearly matching the border of the TV).

I'll try to get a proper camera shot tomorrow.

Sadly, the picture doesn't help. My blacks are excellent in terms of depth even at higher brightness than what you are running at. The problem is shadow quality! I can't differentiate anything but the bottom row at that brightness level.
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post #199 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

Sadly, the picture doesn't help. My blacks are excellent in terms of depth even at higher brightness than what you are running at. The problem is shadow quality! I can't differentiate anything but the bottom row at that brightness level.

Okay...maybe the fault is at the PC level then. PC RGB is 0-255, but most TVs use a space of 15-235. That means that if your PC is outputting from 0-15, your TV would simply interpret this as black. This is in line with you only being able to see the bottom row (as the 4 top rows are 1-15).

My NVidia card automatically detects the display as a TV, so I believe it compresses the RGB space to 15-235. See if you can find some kind of settings in your GPU control panel. What video card are you using?

If you have a PS3, it does something similar as well. If you want to use the 0-255 RGB space, you set RGB Full. If you want to use the regular TV space, you use RGB Limited.
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post #200 of 771 Old 06-23-2010, 09:10 PM
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Okay...maybe the fault is at the PC level then. PC RGB is 0-255, but most TVs use a space of 15-235. That means that if your PC is outputting from 0-15, your TV would simply interpret this as black. This is in line with you only being able to see the bottom row (as the 4 top rows are 1-15).

My NVidia card automatically detects the display as a TV, so I believe it compresses the RGB space to 15-235. See if you can find some kind of settings in your GPU control panel. What video card are you using?

If you have a PS3, it does something similar as well. If you want to use the 0-255 RGB space, you set RGB Full. If you want to use the regular TV space, you use RGB Limited.

9600 GT. How did you change yours? (Presumably, you were able to or you would not be able to see the upper rows, either). I found the setting for video.. but not for everything. Now it has me stuck at a 24 hz refresh rate.

Edit: If that was the case, wouldn't turning the brightness up *NOT* reveal the upper rows?
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post #201 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

9600 GT. How did you change yours? (Presumably, you were able to or you would not be able to see the upper rows, either). I found the setting for video.. but not for everything. Now it has me stuck at a 24 hz refresh rate.

Edit: If that was the case, wouldn't turning the brightness up *NOT* reveal the upper rows?

I don't know. =\\

Try updating to the 197.45 drivers (don't get the 257 drivers)...apparently NVidia has screwed around with the RGB settings in the past year or two.
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post #202 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

Dougette: What brightness do you have yours on? I can barely (if at all) make out squares #1 and #2 on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
this test with backlight at 5 and brightness at 66.

Edit: Found your brightness... Backlight at 1 and Brightness at 51?

With those settings, I can only see the last row. I presume your result is better? I have the 40".

The black squares are not meant for adjusting brightness, although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.

"Use the contrast setting, and maybe gamma to improve the display of the darker squares,
but watch out for undoing the optimizations in the earlier images."


Try tweaking your gamma more positive to see the darker squares.
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post #203 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

The black squares are not meant for adjusting brightness, although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.

"Use the contrast setting, and maybe gamma to improve the display of the darker squares, but watch out for undoing the optimizations in the earlier images.
On most LCD monitors, the brightness setting only affects the backlight, but doesn't affect the test images otherwise."


Try tweaking your gamma more positive.

Actually, brightness setting in this TV definitely has a massive impact on the black squares screen. Each step removes or adds 1 square to my screen.

I'm pretty sure this is a color space issue, since his black squares show up at 60+ brightness. I assume this means the whole screen gets brighter as a result. This means the PC is sending reference black to the TV but the TV thinks its just grey.

edit: actually, that wouldn't make any sense since the background is reference black.

@ Malicize: does the black background get brighter as you bring your brightness setting to the 60+ that gives you all the blacks? If not, then there's no problem, just leave your brightness setting up there.
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post #204 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

Actually, brightness setting in this TV definitely has a massive impact on the black squares screen. Each step removes or adds 1 square to my screen.

Originally posted by Beeper > although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.

Correct. Although the brightness should have already been set at that point, but that website doesn't have any adjustment labeled for setting the brightness. The instructions for the black level page is to adjust either gamma or contrast, both of which affect how many squares can be seen after the brightness has initially been adjusted. If the gamma and/or contrast is then changed, the brightness needs to be rechecked.

The black square setting also needs to be done in complete darkness, since the difference between the background and square #1 is very subtle.
When properly adjusted, square #2 is readily seen, and square #1 is barely distinguishable from the background.

If square #1 can't be seen, even with brightness way up, then the gamma needs to be adjusted more positive. Malicize hasn't indicated what gamma setting is being used.

I also found that the gamma setting page did not give the proper gamma.
I could adjust the gamma so that all three shades were close to 2.2 on the scales, but then watching actual content, everything was terribly washed out.
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post #205 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

9600 GT.

Make sure that your Nvidia desktop color settings are initially at default in the Nvidia control panel.
Brightness, contrast and gamma should be at the default of 50%.

You may need to adjust your graphics card settings before the display will see deep black level, because the PC is hiding it.
I was adjusting one set up, and couldn't see the second darkest black level, no matter how much I cranked the display brightness,
until I slightly increased settings at the graphics card.

I'm using driver 169.21 with a GeForce FX 5200 DVI/HDMI and I can distinguish all of the black squares.
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post #206 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Beeper > although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.

Correct. Although the brightness should have already been set at that point, but that website doesn't have any adjustment labeled for setting the brightness. The instructions for the black level page is to adjust either gamma or contrast, both of which affect how many squares can be seen after the brightness has initially been adjusted. If the gamma and/or contrast is then changed, the brightness needs to be rechecked.

The black square setting also needs to be done in complete darkness, since the difference between the background and square #1 is very subtle.
When properly adjusted, square #2 is readily seen, and square #1 is barely distinguishable from the background.

If square #1 can't be seen, even with brightness way up, then the gamma needs to be adjusted more positive. Malicize hasn't indicated what gamma setting is being used.

I also found that the gamma setting page did not give the proper gamma.
I could adjust the gamma so that all three shades were close to 2.2 on the scales, but then watching actual content, everything was terribly washed out.

Yeah I'm keeping the colors at 50 and not changing the individual gamma settings. Everything is at 2.2 except for red, which is around 1.6. Looks much better to my eyes than 2.2 everything. Personal preference takes precedence over the "correct" settings.

edit: something is curious though, if you reduce the color settings down to around 40, they'll all be around 2.2. If you keep reducing it, it seems to stay at 2.2...so that chart may not work for the TV at all. I'll try using DVE to calibrate colors tonight.
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post #207 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ex0du5 View Post

Yeah I'm keeping the colors at 50 and not changing the individual gamma settings. Everything is at 2.2 except for red, which is around 1.6. Looks much better to my eyes than 2.2 everything. Personal preference takes precedence over the "correct" settings.

edit: something is curious though, if you reduce the color settings down to around 40, they'll all be around 2.2. If you keep reducing it, it seems to stay at 2.2...so that chart may not work for the TV at all. I'll try using DVE to calibrate colors tonight.

Was messing with the TV last night. It stopped doing 1920x1080 and I had to set it to a slightly lower custom resolution (1900x1069) for it not to drop way down.

Increasing gamma helps, but makes greys all look the same.

Brightness USED to make the background change heavily from 50-60 but now it doesn't.. so I'm a bit confused but sticking here now. I think I see banding on the gradients for that page, though.
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post #208 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 02:41 PM
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What NVidia drivers are you running? No resolution issues should have popped up with the TV.
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post #209 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 03:18 PM
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What NVidia drivers are you running? No resolution issues should have popped up with the TV.

Newest or close to it.
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post #210 of 771 Old 06-24-2010, 03:43 PM
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Newest or close to it.

I had issues running 1920*1080 in CSS with the newest drivers (257.xx). Try the 197.45 drivers.
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