sharp quattron is it marketing gimmick? I think so - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 199 Old 02-24-2011, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post

So as you pay more, they make up higher contrast numbers?

Dynamic contrast is using ratio of peak white in white screen to MLL on black screen. That ridicules what the word "contrast" even means. that's why some claim infinite dynamic contrast: they just shut off the backlight. For 6m:1 they probably "lowers" the MLL number rather than increase brightness as LCD are already very bright. I say it is gimmick because no one will be able to see a difference in real world when your screen is mixture of brightness.

Check out ANSI contrast which makes more sense but manufacturers don't readily publish. Actually our eyes will struggle above 1000:1 contrast (not to mention millions to 1) in dark room, but still higher contrast is favorable when ambient light is introduced.
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post #182 of 199 Old 02-24-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Traylorc View Post

While many folks on this board are knowledgeable regarding accurate colors, acceptable black levels, etc... the majority of consumers are not. And quite frankly, the average consumer doesn't care about ISF certification nor do they obsess about floating blacks or try desperately to purchase the perfect TV with the perfect picture. Guibs you absolutely right, most folks are in awe when they encounter a set with vivid colors. Heck, I know better...I know and understand the benefits of a perfectly calibrated set. I also know the colors on the Quattron are overblown...nonetheless I was staring intently at the Quattron while the movie Kung Fu Panda was playing.

I am trying to disrespect anyone who cares passionately about accurate colors, contrast, or brightness. That being said, it's no surprise that major manufacturers are going to focus on that large percentage of customers who love TVs with vivid colors and never heard of AVS forum.

True. Samsung and now Sharp are just giving what people wants and in the end, it helps them sales wise.

In the end, the Sharp quattron is still a very good TV. If you dial down the colors a bit, it makes for a very good Tv. the U2VA panel from Sharp is a great one, espicially compared to Samsing's panel. Somtimes, I wish Sharp would do a quality non Quattron Tv. They do have some, but it's more of their lower end TV and it misses some of the great built and quality of their higher end, but Quattron models.
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post #183 of 199 Old 02-25-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

Doug: I have a Lumagen XD and am thinking about getting the 70" 120 hz Sharp after they are released. Any comments on how well the Sharp does black levels vs. the Panny VT/GT plasmas after their black level rises. Thanks

Personally, I could not REMOTELY live with any EDGE-LIT LCD I've ever seen. The un-evenness of illumination is so severe on all of them I've seen that it's a constant distraction. The Sharp model I have has the LEDs behind the panel so it's thicker and the 60" model weighs something like 130 pounds out of the box. It doesn't have local dimming - blacks are "serviceable" which means accceptable, but not challenging the best blacks out there. The backlight is pretty uniform on this TV (925UN) -- meaning it doesn't suffer from obvious flashlighting (a fairly common annoyance with many LCDs, even the ones with the backlight behind the panel).

Since the previous post, I have used a Lumagen XE 3D to calibrate the 925UN... it was a very interesting experience. The Radiance processors can't fix all the color problems the Sharp has. But MIRACULOUSLY, the busticated Sharp CMS controls would move colors in ways that would then give the Radiance processor a starting point it COULD use to make the colors very accurate. But the Red point is still a bit too high on the y axis of the xyY CIE chart indicating that the red spectrum of the LEDs being used doesn't go into low-enough frequencies of red to get the red point to the Rec 709 standard. And nothing could quite get blue to the the right coordinates - but it was fairly close. It was VERY strange to have the Radiance CMS controls unable to fix some problems and have to work with both the Sharp CMS controls (weird-responding as they are) while also using the CMS controls to get all the colors (except red and blue) to be essentially perfect for xy position AND luminance (Y).

Frankly, I'm hoping the 2011-2012 models improve on some of the things I've found in 2010-2011 models like motion issues and incomplete calibration controls (Panasonic and Sony), non-functional CMS and poor backlight illumination uniformity (Toshiba), geometry/overscan and only low-res 3D support (Mitsubishi) - and many had 3D glasses that simply don't block enough light when the shutters are closed. Sony & Toshiba have severe problems but Sony is already supposed to be shipping Gen2 glasses. Panasonic glasses were better but still not good enough and their gen2 glasses fit better but didn't seem to eliminate ghosting in the same places as the gen1 Panasonic glasses. Mitsubishi glasses worked better than any of the others in regards to minimum ghosting issues. Sharp's glasses appear to be somewhere between the Mitsubishi and Panasonic glasses - need more time with them to see how often ghosting is visible though, difficult to make a definitive eval of the Sharp glasses at this early stage..

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post #184 of 199 Old 02-25-2011, 09:52 AM
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I find it hard to believe most people in this forum upgrade once every 4 yr.

I upgrade every 5 years :-)
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post #185 of 199 Old 02-25-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Personally, I could not REMOTELY live with any EDGE-LIT LCD I've ever seen. The un-evenness of illumination is so severe on all of them I've seen that it's a constant distraction. The Sharp model I have has the LEDs behind the panel so it's thicker and the 60" model weighs something like 130 pounds out of the box. It doesn't have local dimming - blacks are "serviceable" which means accceptable, but not challenging the best blacks out there. The backlight is pretty uniform on this TV (925UN) -- meaning it doesn't suffer from obvious flashlighting (a fairly common annoyance with many LCDs, even the ones with the backlight behind the panel).

Since the previous post, I have used a Lumagen XE 3D to calibrate the 925UN... it was a very interesting experience. The Radiance processors can't fix all the color problems the Sharp has. But MIRACULOUSLY, the busticated Sharp CMS controls would move colors in ways that would then give the Radiance processor a starting point it COULD use to make the colors very accurate. But the Red point is still a bit too high on the y axis of the xyY CIE chart indicating that the red spectrum of the LEDs being used doesn't go into low-enough frequencies of red to get the red point to the Rec 709 standard. And nothing could quite get blue to the the right coordinates - but it was fairly close. It was VERY strange to have the Radiance CMS controls unable to fix some problems and have to work with both the Sharp CMS controls (weird-responding as they are) while also using the CMS controls to get all the colors (except red and blue) to be essentially perfect for xy position AND luminance (Y).

Frankly, I'm hoping the 2011-2012 models improve on some of the things I've found in 2010-2011 models like motion issues and incomplete calibration controls (Panasonic and Sony), non-functional CMS and poor backlight illumination uniformity (Toshiba), geometry/overscan and only low-res 3D support (Mitsubishi) - and many had 3D glasses that simply don't block enough light when the shutters are closed. Sony & Toshiba have severe problems but Sony is already supposed to be shipping Gen2 glasses. Panasonic glasses were better but still not good enough and their gen2 glasses fit better but didn't seem to eliminate ghosting in the same places as the gen1 Panasonic glasses. Mitsubishi glasses worked better than any of the others in regards to minimum ghosting issues. Sharp's glasses appear to be somewhere between the Mitsubishi and Panasonic glasses - need more time with them to see how often ghosting is visible though, difficult to make a definitive eval of the Sharp glasses at this early stage..

Doug: Thanks. Hopefully you are right and Sharp will improve the CMS for the new models. My current 65" Panny plasma (600U) is getting long in the tooth (purchased 11/06) and I want something bigger next time. It never had good blacks and if it weren't for the Lumagen CMS it could never have been calibrated accurately. I am not interested in 3D at this point.
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post #186 of 199 Old 02-25-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

The Sharp model I have has the LEDs behind the panel so it's thicker and the 60" model weighs something like 130 pounds out of the box. It doesn't have local dimming - blacks are "serviceable" which means accceptable, but not challenging the best blacks out there.

When you say the Sharp does not challenge the best blacks out there are you talking in general (comparing it to Plamsa or DLPs) or are you comparing it to other LCDs? I have read various things which indicate that the blacks on the Sharp were very comparable to other LCDs, but it still doesn't come close to the performance of the Panny Plasmas.
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post #187 of 199 Old 02-25-2011, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

Somtimes, I wish Sharp would do a quality non Quattron Tv.

They should just take the 60" 88 series panel and give it local dimming. That would make for a very nice display that Sharp could probably sell at a very competitive price point.
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post #188 of 199 Old 02-26-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traylorc View Post

When you say the Sharp does not challenge the best blacks out there are you talking in general (comparing it to Plamsa or DLPs) or are you comparing it to other LCDs? I have read various things which indicate that the blacks on the Sharp were very comparable to other LCDs, but it still doesn't come close to the performance of the Panny Plasmas.

I'd say the Sharp blacks are fairly similar to the Sony HX909 XBR blacks with local dimming turned off on the Sony. With the Sony's local dimming turned on, large black areas are darker than the Sharp (but there is a little halo-ing around light objects agaist dark backgrounds that bothers some people, but not others). The blackest areas of the edge-lit Toshiba LED/LCD are about the same as the Sharp blacks, but the light blobs (from the uneven illumination) in the Toshiba's screen were much brighter. Samsung plasma blacks are pretty similar to Sharp blacks. Panasonic's best blacks (in new G/V panels) are darker than Sharp's blacks. What is nice is that the Sharps background is so evenly illuminated... no hot spots, no flashlighting from the corners.

Without the Lumagen Radiance processor, the Sharp TV has some off colors in the highlights that I was not able to eliminate with controls in the Sharp... these would make some highlight luminance levels go green or some other color... for example, one of the problems creates greenish-gray tinted areas in Caucasian flesh tones. Not pretty. Need to revisit adjustments to see if the Sharp's controls can do better or not... have only had one shot at it so far.

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post #189 of 199 Old 02-26-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I'd say the Sharp blacks are fairly similar to the Sony HX909 XBR blacks with local dimming turned off on the Sony. With the Sony's local dimming turned on, large black areas are darker than the Sharp (but there is a little halo-ing around light objects agaist dark backgrounds that bothers some people, but not others). The blackest areas of the edge-lit Toshiba LED/LCD are about the same as the Sharp blacks, but the light blobs (from the uneven illumination) in the Toshiba's screen were much brighter. Samsung plasma blacks are pretty similar to Sharp blacks. Panasonic's best blacks (in new G/V panels) are darker than Sharp's blacks. What is nice is that the Sharps background is so evenly illuminated... no hot spots, no flashlighting from the corners.

Without the Lumagen Radiance processor, the Sharp TV has some off colors in the highlights that I was not able to eliminate with controls in the Sharp... these would make some highlight luminance levels go green or some other color... for example, one of the problems creates greenish-gray tinted areas in Caucasian flesh tones. Not pretty. Need to revisit adjustments to see if the Sharp's controls can do better or not... have only had one shot at it so far.

Thanks Doug...I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
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post #190 of 199 Old 04-01-2011, 09:52 AM
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Sorry its taken me forever to reply to this..honestly, I've been busy enough to forget about it a bit, and I only recently learned what I'm about to add in a Psychology class I took last semester.

Previously I had mentioned that I thought eyes saw colors as a comparitive process. In other words, when a color comes in, the reason its SURE that its Red..is because your eye actually filters it through all of the colors through your rods and cones to get an accurate reading.

Someone had said it doesn't work that way...well, guess what..yes it does. So even if the rods and cones didn't naturally process yellow, the wavelength that passes through your visual filters will register as information that lines up with that wavelength at the optic nerve....which will see that wavelength as yellow.. So the extra yellow pixel is not strictly a gimmick. Your eyes can see and process the yellow accurately. Yellow is also a primary color, so its never muddied by the ambiguity of being mixed with other colors.
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post #191 of 199 Old 04-02-2011, 09:51 AM
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Yellow is NOT a primary color unless you are playing with crayons or colored pencils or ink on a printed page. And human eyes have no "yellow" receptors. Period.

Reflected red, yellow, and blue (from a photo or printed page or whatever) make black.

In a light source, red, green, and blue make white. But the 3 colors have to be in the right proportions to make neutral white... about 72% green, about 21% red, and about 7% blue is what we perceive as 6500K white. Note that there is no yellow in this mix of colors, but if you take blue light away from this mix, and you have about 3.5 times more green than red light, we will perceive that as yellow - PERFECT yellow.

The two mediums (reflected light and direct light) work completely differently.

Human vision response has been studied and measured over decades and is well-understood.

The fact that you called yellow a primary color means that you don't understand color well enough to realize that reflected light (from a painting or printed page or photograph) works differently than viewing light directly from a light source (like a TV).

Once again, if the TV has an accurate red and an accurate green, the TV will make PERFECT yellows that MEASURE and LOOK perfect. No yellow pixels are needed... EVER.

Then cap that off with Sharp putting yellow pixels in the TV then using factory settings that make yellow much too green, way over-saturated, and way too dim and you have just a mess. What the hell good are yellow pixels if the TV can't make accurate yellows because of poor factory settings? Those poor factory settings can be somewhat repaired with the Sharp's calibration controls, but owner's aren't going to be able to do that on their own - so owners who don't have these TVs calibrated and bought them because of the great yellows will end up seeing puke-green yellows instead of accurate yellows. That's no boon to anybody.

Possibly the worst problem these TVs have is that there are HUGE color luminance errors that can't be fixed. In 2-D mode, green and cyan are 40% too dim after using all the adjustment range of the controls in the Sharp (which work very poorly). If you leave green and cyan that dim while all the other colors are adjusted to have the correct luminance, images look HORRIBLE. The only fix is to make the other colors (red, yellow, magenta, and blue) dimmer also so all colors are about 40% too dim. That makes images look kinda-sorta reasonable, but they are still very wrong. The same problem exists in 3-D mode, but it's not as bad... green and cyan are only 20% too dim after using all the adjustment range of the CMS controls. That reduces the errors enough that they aren't nearly as objectionable as the errors in 2-D mode.

Errors are errors. Sharp has accomplished NOTHING by putting yellow pixels in a TV. In fact, Sharp TVs with yellow pixels have WORSE yellows than many TVs that have no yellow pixels... all because Sharp didn't take the time to implement the yellow pixels properly.

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post #192 of 199 Old 05-24-2011, 04:28 PM
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I do understand the difference between direct light and reflected light off of print. I'm a photographer.

Its true that I used my own definition of primary color. I used the idea that any color that isn't mixed with another color is a primary color.. So red, yellow, blue are primary, green, violet and orange are secondary because they are color mixes.

I admit also, I am not totally knowledgeable on how vision works. But I have noticed that in photoghy, the more a camera has to think about before it shoots, the less likely you will get what you are looking for. In other words, in a situation where you know or understand all of the variables of what you are shooting, you should lock your camera settings to match that so it doesn't have to think, and just shoots.

And I can't help but think that to some degree the same applies to normal vision. The less we make it work to try to figure out what we are looking at looks like, the better what we are looking at will actually look. There is a small part of me that feels that even though we can get sensors to agree that green, plus or minus red and blue together are yellow, and maybe even fool our eyes to see it that way, that it isn't perfect..and there are deletorious effects to constantly viewing that combination as yellow. Whereas when something is naturally actual yelllow, it puts less strain on our eyes.
Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but thats my instinct.
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post #193 of 199 Old 05-24-2011, 05:06 PM
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The impact of adding yellow or amber LEDs is that one side of the traditional RGB color triangle (gamut) can perhaps be "pushed out" a bit. Specifically, the side between the R and G vertices.

If the R and G LEDs (Blue is not relevant to this discussion) being used are already at or beyond the standard color gamut points, then the added Y LEDs aren't improving the gamut any. On the other hand, if the R and G LEDs were a bit "inboard" of the standard color gamut (or if the extended color gamut is being used), then you might get a very small amount of gamut "fill" from the yellow LEDs.

The other potential advantage is in getting potentially brighter whites. But if the numbers of R, G, and B LEDs are reduced a bit to include Yellow, this may result in less bright R, G, and B primary (saturated) colors, even if the overall brightness of white, and unsaturated colors is improved.

For the above reasons, I think it is mostly gimmick, with little real advantage.

As a side topic, RGBY arrays provide better color rendering than RGB arrays, when the purpose of the light is to illuminate objects. This is referred to as color rendering index (CRI), which is basically a way to quantify the weighted difference between a light source's spectral "fill" and the sun's spectral content. As an example, if you are wearing a yellow sweater, and someone shines an an LED light on it that is made up of just RGB LEDs, the yellow sweater will look sort of dark brown. There is no yellow-spectrum light to reflect of the sweater. Even though the RGB LED light will look white when looked at directly (at whatever color temperature it is producing), the reflected light off of the yellow sweater can't look yellow if there is no yellow spectral content. You can improve the color rendering of an LED light source by either adding some yellow/amber LEDs, OR (more commonly), by using "white" LEDs, which are basically blue LED chips covered with yellow and/or orange phosphors. The phosphors have a broad spectral emission, and so when combined with the blue LED chips they provide good color rendering. (None of which has anything to do with the use of LEDs for TV displays, however...)
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post #194 of 199 Old 05-24-2011, 07:56 PM
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RGB light is additive ie they make black becomes white. That is why MLL is so important from a videophile point of view.

RYB pigment is subtractive ie they make white becomes black. Your canvas is white.

Think some of us here mixed these up.
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post #195 of 199 Old 01-19-2012, 09:48 AM
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More agree on this point.

The source is encoded in RGB, and the digital signals are transferred in such a encoded data format, say, only containing RGB. No matter what kind of mathematical model you are using, you are making up a forth channel Y, either linearly or non-linearly produced from RGB at the signal receiver's side, which is telling that Y is a kind of fake and is able to be produced from RGB.

In order to have a better display, you must have investigated into human eyes' responses to RGBY respectively, and then estimate Y out, either using Fuzzy or whatever method. Any documentation about it? Personally, although I don't deny Sharp TV's display is cool, theoretically, I doubt it's reasonable.


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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Unless the source is captured in "quattron" then it would seem it's all hype. Kinda like saying scaled SD-DVDs look like HD, i.e. if it's not in the source and you "make it up", how can you objectively say it's better? Give me a panel that looks the same in a dark room when it's powered off as it does when displaying "black".

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post #196 of 199 Old 10-26-2012, 12:44 PM
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Lots of replies to this, and someone may have already made these points but:

Company X has a great idea: Let's widen the Gamut of our LCD/Plasma screens! Engineers come up with a solution. Great! Send it to marketing!
Consumer buys TV with the expectation that they are going to see MUCH more vibrant and Brilliant color. But wait, there's a problem here:

The video, be it from a Blu-Ray or what have you, is already encoded (mapped) into the HDTV color space. Think of the color space as a container for color,
once it has been put into the confines of the industry standard color space, it simply doesn't matter how large a color gamut your display can make. It _might_ make
a difference if your previous display could _not_ reproduce the entire predefined gamut of the HDTV space, there you might see some modest gains. Are most displays
"Yellow deficient?" well, some do a better job than others, to be sure, but this ramped up Yellow phosphor is overkill when compared to the actual color space that is encoded
into the video. Here's another way to look at it. Most LCD displays most closely conform to the sRGB color space, with proper calibration (and if hooked to a computer, profiled)
the video displayed will very closely match what the producer of the content intended, knowing that their content was going to be viewed on an average panel of average performance.

If display manufacturers are going to start a new wave of expanded gamut sets, then a new ICC HDTV color space will have to be agreed upon. Producers will then have an expanded
palette of color from which to work. A good example of where expanded color gamut is really useful is in Graphic Design/Photography. I'm viewing AVS on an Eizo color edge monitor that
has been calibrated with a Greytag-McBeth I1 pro Spectrophotomer to a white point of 6500k with a gamma of 2.2, an ICC profile generated and applied. Why? Because I do color critical work,
and I NEED to be able to see colors that exceed the sRGB range. The Eizo, not cheap! Is designed to reproduce the Adobe98 (A98) color space. If a color is outside the sRGB space I have the ability
to actually see the difference when it is brought into sRGB . But, I digress.... Sorry.

What would be really cool IMHO, would be the ability to actually PROFILE a large HT display, not just calibrate and adjust it's white point / grey balance. The only way that can be done, that i'm aware of, is to have an actual graphics card driving the display. Why wouldn't high end display makers give you the ability to generate a profile in addition to the usual white balance ect, controls? You can get pretty good results using a solution like CalMan and an instrument like the I1 pro, but it would be geek heaven to be able to actually make a real .icc profile for your display independent of having to drive it using a PC/MAC. You could then objectively compare the output of your display against ICC standard color spaces such as CIE(Lab), Rec.709 (HDTV),sRGB, A98 and so on.

I'm all for expanded Gamut! I think it could bring in a whole new dimension to the Home Theater. Directors/Producers would dance a merry little jig if they had new, bolder, colors that they could display and it would be a big win for the consumer, but until some standard is brought to bear in terms of color management, I think that any real push at the boundaries of Rec.709 is at best beta testing new panel technology on consumers (we all hate that, right?) and at worst a marketing ploy aimed at the understandably uninformed.

Peace-
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post #197 of 199 Old 10-26-2012, 12:55 PM
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Yellow is a tricky color;)

If you've ever profiled a high end printer (i've worked with most inksets) you'll see that _reflected_ Yellow as measured by the best of instruments will only hit a density of about 1.2 regardless of how much ink is put down. And in the world of CMYK , yellow is usually the weakest link (i.e. Y+M=R).

I'm not quite sure why I felt the need to chime in with that, but there it is.

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post #198 of 199 Old 10-26-2012, 12:56 PM
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Yellow is a tricky color;)

If you've ever profiled a high end printer (i've worked with most inksets) you'll see that _reflected_ Yellow as measured by the best of instruments will only hit a density of about 1.2 regardless of how much ink is put down. And in the world of CMYK , yellow is usually the weakest link (i.e. Y+M=R).

I'm not quite sure why I felt the need to chime in with that, but there it is.

-b
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post #199 of 199 Old 10-27-2012, 03:30 AM
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My observation of how the yellow pixel is used is this:
1) Black and white seems to be rendered more uniformly with the light source LED being blue with yellow phosphor.
In other words, there is a match between the native backlight source and the blue and yellow pixels to render a pure B&W image.
Gray scale purity is better than any I've seen on RGB sets, with no tendency towards green shadowing.
2) Blue/Green colors are more vivid because the green pixel doesn't have to mix with red to make yellow. Pure green is more saturated, too.
3) Flesh tone rendering is easier with the yellow pixel in play because less reliance on green means less chance of bilious coloration in shadows.

These are my observations from actual use.
It will be interesting to see what happens as the yellow phosphor ages and the backlight becomes bluer.
The 4th pixel could be much more important with a full-spectrum backlight source.
As it is, the addition does nothing to alleviate the blue highlights and the clipping of reds because of insufficient spectrum
coverage from the backlight...
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Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

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