Sony Bravia Engine 2 vs Engine 3 : real differences ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello,
Can anyone tell me which is better "in real life" ?
BRAVIA Engine 2 VS BRAVIA Engine 3.

I am looking at 2 different LCD screens from sony.

46EX402 (europe) who has BE2.

46EX500 (europe) who has BE3.
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post #2 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red71 View Post

Hello,
Can anyone tell me which is better "in real life" ?
BRAVIA Engine 2 VS BRAVIA Engine 3.

I am looking at 2 different LCD screens from sony.

46EX402 (europe) who has BE2.

46EX500 (europe) who has BE3.

BE2 does not handle 3:2 / 2:2 cadences which means worse performance with film material.
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post #3 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collusion View Post

BE2 does not handle 3:2 / 2:2 cadences which means worse performance with film material.

OK, pardon my ignorance if this is a mis-statement: My US EX500 uses the BE2 engine, but is capable of displaying 24fps material. Is this possible? Isn't 24fps capability an indication that it performs the pulldowns necessary?

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post #4 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post

Isn't 24fps capability an indication that it performs the pulldowns necessary?

Nope. That just means it can accept a 1080p/24 input signal.
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post #5 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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As I read to many different forums, real differences between BE2 and BE3 are not much important...
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post #6 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 01:59 PM
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I will say this about the BE3, it does do a better of scaling and deinterlacing a 480i cable signal to 1080p than the BE2. For High-Def signals though, it probably doesn't make that much of a difference.
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post #7 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 06:37 PM
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(On a HDsatellite-receiver) SD looks good on xbr8 (BE2 pro) but i have to use DRC in some cases.
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post #8 of 31 Old 03-24-2010, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collusion View Post

BE2 does not handle 3:2 / 2:2 cadences which means worse performance with film material.

i used to have a Sony 32XBR6 with BE2 and it most certainly did handle 3:2 pulldown properly.

it could work 3 ways actually with 24fps content

60hz input with 3:2 pulldown - cinemotion set to auto 2 it would just apply a reverse pulldown and remove 3:2 judder

60hz input with 3:2 pulldown - cinemotion set to auto 1 it would apply the reverse pulldown and activate 60hz motionflow motion enhancer to smooth out minor movements on screen had a slight amount of SOE when in this mode. this was the best looking way to watch movies to me

24hz input would activate a 48hz refresh internally and apply a 2:2 pulldown, this resulted in worse film motion flickering and looked pretty bad to me but it did in fact remove judder

BE2 has nothing to do with any of this of course. this was all handled by Cinemotion and motionflow (yes that model was a 60hz TV and did have a non adjustable motionflow that only worked with films with 3:2 pulldown present)

BE2 and BE3 is the image processing engine that cleans up lower resolutions and handles up scaling and de-interlacing.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #9 of 31 Old 03-25-2010, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

i used to have a Sony 32XBR6 with BE2 and it most certainly did handle 3:2 pulldown properly.

It could be that US version of the BE2 does indeed handle 3:2 pulldown but the European does not.
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post #10 of 31 Old 03-25-2010, 03:48 AM
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I don't have a BE2 panel to compare but I do know for a fact that my Sony Z5100 and it's BE3 hands down beats the processing in my Sharp panel and it's not in SD material as some propose as my Sharp 57" D90 does SD quite well but with HD material it excels and surpasses my 3.5 yr old Sharp VP it provides more depth, PQ definition, color and edges - The Sharp wins with size immersion though for now being 57" vs. 40" of the Sony.

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post #11 of 31 Old 03-25-2010, 05:36 AM
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BE3 is just to make all those with BE2 run out and buy a new set
its all part of the game....they call it marketing
remember XBR1 well XBR2 was supposed to be a big improvement....guess what both were crap
its like 240Hz comes out the year after 120Hz....is there really any noticeable improvement?
my new plasma has the "NEW" 600Hz subfield for better motion resolution,the only thing is, I never saw any motion problems with my old plasma
this runs the gamut from cell phones to computers...each year a "New Improved
Feature" is added that we just can't live without
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post #12 of 31 Old 03-25-2010, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collusion View Post

It could be that US version of the BE2 does indeed handle 3:2 pulldown but the European does not.

European version BE2 does not handle 3:2 pulldown?

And European version BE2pro and BE3?
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post #13 of 31 Old 03-26-2010, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffs386 View Post

BE3 is just to make all those with BE2 run out and buy a new set
its all part of the game....they call it marketing
remember XBR1 well XBR2 was supposed to be a big improvement....guess what both were crap
its like 240Hz comes out the year after 120Hz....is there really any noticeable improvement?
my new plasma has the "NEW" 600Hz subfield for better motion resolution,the only thing is, I never saw any motion problems with my old plasma
this runs the gamut from cell phones to computers...each year a "New Improved
Feature" is added that we just can't live without

I agree.
Its just purely marketing and its not a revolutionary difference. it's a small improvement.

Its more like when you upgrade your graphics driver on your PC. Except on the tv side.. they do it through 'hardware' upgrade instead of software. hahhh
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post #14 of 31 Old 03-26-2010, 06:50 PM
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My 52W4100 BE2 displays SD much better than my 46Z5100 BE3. I can't tell the difference with HD.

What I have noticed though is that BE2 sets do not offer internet content or streaming, these connectivity features are only available with BE3. I suspect that the "engines" may be the same, and Sony simply adds the "3" for their streaming sets. Not a bad marketing gimmick...

But truly... I have no idea.

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post #15 of 31 Old 03-27-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

European version BE2 does not handle 3:2 pulldown?

And European version BE2pro and BE3?

I think that most of Europe is on a 50HZ system as far as over the air TV is concerned. When a movie shot at 24 fps is converted for broadcast in a 50HZ system, no 3:2 pulldown is needed. They simply speed up the projector very slightly to 25 fps and then capture the same frame twice. Therefore, on playback, you do not have to reverse the 3:2 pulldown as it was not applied to start with.

Speeding up the film makes the movie a few seconds (maybe minutes) shorter depending on the overall length of the movie, and slightly raises the audio pitch. This is not normally a problem, unless it is a musical and tv viewer has perfect pitch - then it might bother them.

For a really in-depth explanation of this whole subject just Google the word "telecine" or look up "telecine" on Wikipedia. Telecine is the correct term to describe the process of converting film based material (movies) into a television format.

Robert
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post #16 of 31 Old 03-27-2010, 04:11 PM
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ok
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post #17 of 31 Old 03-27-2010, 04:42 PM
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Went to BB today and the BD demo loop on the EX700 has a split screen showing BE3 on the left and "Off" on the right side. Looks like the color setting was lowered and brightness increased on the "Off" side. BE3 is probably just Marketing.

On another note... I saw the Sammy 55C7000 3D demo with Monsters vs. Aliens... I want... I want... I want...

Where are those 3D threads... ?

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post #18 of 31 Old 04-10-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinee View Post

Went to BB today and the BD demo loop on the EX700 has a split screen showing BE3 on the left and "Off" on the right side. Looks like the color setting was lowered and brightness increased on the "Off" side. BE3 is probably just Marketing.

On another note... I saw the Sammy 55C7000 3D demo with Monsters vs. Aliens... I want... I want... I want...

Where are those 3D threads... ?

I checked out the EX700 and EX500 (My FutureShop has them side by side).

According to Sony marketing:
BE3 is better than BE2 for:
Better colors
Lower video noise
Better definition in the blacks

On the setup they had, they had the BE2 set so that I'm assuming was the "vivid" setting. Colors were much brighter than the BE3, but the contast was so high that the blacks were washed out and the whites pierced the retinas. The BE3 on the other had, had the contrast so low, that the colors were washed out. Sure you can see the black detail, but any TV could if you back off the contrast/brightness that much. I would have liked having a controlled source on both, setting them both up with the DVD escentials DVD, and doing a REAL A/B test. My guess is the BE3 will shine in non-HD material, but giving both 1080P, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

On the video loops they were getting, I didn't see any difference in PQ (other than above).

I ended up getting the EX500 over EX700 (couldn't justify the $500 considering I just use it as a home theatre "monitor"). I would have liked the 1/2 power consumption the EX700 series has over the EX500 though (from the LED sidelight).
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-10-2010, 10:37 PM
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Both Bravia Engines handle 3:2 the same way. Not sure where everyone is getting their information but it is inaccurate. The NX models use the BE-3 PRO which is a faster processor than the BE-3.

Those who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
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post #20 of 31 Old 04-10-2010, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collusion View Post

It could be that US version of the BE2 does indeed handle 3:2 pulldown but the European does not.

there is no pulldown used on european anything because you guys use 50hz refresh rates and films are simply sped up slighty to make them 25fps rather than 24fps.

3:2 pulldown comes into play with 60hz TV's/formats because of the vast difference between 24fps and 60fps.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #21 of 31 Old 04-10-2010, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wires1 View Post

I checked out the EX700 and EX500 (My FutureShop has them side by side).

According to Sony marketing:
BE3 is better than BE2 for:
Better colors
Lower video noise
Better definition in the blacks

On the setup they had, they had the BE2 set so that I'm assuming was the "vivid" setting. Colors were much brighter than the BE3, but the contast was so high that the blacks were washed out and the whites pierced the retinas. The BE3 on the other had, had the contrast so low, that the colors were washed out. Sure you can see the black detail, but any TV could if you back off the contrast/brightness that much. I would have liked having a controlled source on both, setting them both up with the DVD escentials DVD, and doing a REAL A/B test. My guess is the BE3 will shine in non-HD material, but giving both 1080P, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

On the video loops they were getting, I didn't see any difference in PQ (other than above).

I ended up getting the EX500 over EX700 (couldn't justify the $500 considering I just use it as a home theatre "monitor"). I would have liked the 1/2 power consumption the EX700 series has over the EX500 though (from the LED sidelight).

BE3 is better than BE2 for:
Better colors - perhaps

Lower video noise - sure

Better definition in the blacks - no, blacks are a direct result of the LCD panel and backlight configuration, processing has little to do with black levels on LCD TV's

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-11-2010, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

BE3 is better than BE2 for:
Better colors - perhaps

Lower video noise - sure

Better definition in the blacks - no, blacks are a direct result of the LCD panel and backlight configuration, processing has little to do with black levels on LCD TV's

Good point. It's like saying that my completely dark room is nicer looking than your completely dark room.

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post #23 of 31 Old 04-11-2010, 10:11 PM
 
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Perhaps they mean it through their "dynamic contrast" and "auto-dimming" processing features. :P
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post #24 of 31 Old 04-11-2010, 11:05 PM
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Perhaps they mean it through their "dynamic contrast" and "auto-dimming" processing features. :P

dynamic contrast is useless for PQ enhancement realistically and the simple fact is if a panel has a static CR of 1000:1 nothing besides backlight dimming will make them get blacker and if this dimming is used on too wide of a scale as it is on most LCD TV's it damages PQ and crushes blacks and shadow detail ruining PQ

even LED local dimming sets have their drawbacks due to haloing esp when viewed at off angles, unill they can make it so that there is a microscopic LED behind every RGB pixel on the screen this problem will likely exist.

OLED is the solution to this problem but i think its a long way off before they can produce them large enough and make them competitive in the market price wise and even then it has some drawbacks like poor visibly in a very bright room like plasma's. recent Cell phones that have OLED screens are pretty much unusable in broad daylight. who knows what other problems the tech might have because right now we just have to trust what the manufactures say about it and we already know most of them like to hide their products defects from the public for obvious reasons

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post #25 of 31 Old 04-12-2010, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wires1 View Post

According to Sony marketing:
BE3 is better than BE2 for:
Better colors.
Better definition in the blacks

46/55 XBR8 (BE2 pro) is the only Sony model with RGB led's,it should have the best colors.
And what about 46/55 XBR8 LED Dynamic Control?Better blacks?
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-12-2010, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

46/55 XBR8 (BE2 pro) is the only Sony model with RGB led's,it should have the best colors.
And what about 46/55 XBR8 LED Dynamic Control?Better blacks?

Nothing out there beats the XBR8 to this date. Nothing. Don't bring up the little 11" OLED. We're talking about the big guys here. We took an XBR8 and did a side-by-side with the best plasma and another local dimming with white LED's and they did not stand a chance.

Unfortunately, this was a very over-engineered and costly set to design and I feel that it will be another year or 2 before you see another LCD display come close to the PQ. This new design will have some revolutionary features but I can tell you that it will not be OLED.

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post #27 of 31 Old 04-13-2010, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by display veteran View Post

Nothing out there beats the XBR8 to this date. Nothing. Don't bring up the little 11" OLED. We're talking about the big guys here. We took an XBR8 and did a side-by-side with the best plasma and another local dimming with white LED's and they did not stand a chance.

Unfortunately, this was a very over-engineered and costly set to design and I feel that it will be another year or 2 before you see another LCD display come close to the PQ. This new design will have some revolutionary features but I can tell you that it will not be OLED.

So you are effectively saying that the HX9-series is worse?

bye
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-14-2010, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

BE3 is better than BE2 for:
Better definition in the blacks - no, blacks are a direct result of the LCD panel and backlight configuration, processing has little to do with black levels on LCD TV's

Just quoting the BS Sony is feeding us to move to BE3.

If they said "lower video noise in the blacks", then that might make more sense.

Long story short, after almost a week with my BE2 60ex500, I found turning off ALL the Sony fluff crap (enhanced contrast, live color, motionflow, sharpness=0,etc etc). Gives the best possible picture.

With the set running out of the box (in the default settings), I tossed in Transformers 2. Close up scenes of Sam's head had weird staticy video noise in it. Really annoyed me. Tossed it in yesterday (after all the "good features" were disabled, and the picture is flawless).
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post #29 of 31 Old 04-15-2010, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

So you are effectively saying that the HX9-series is worse?

Not as good as. Sounds much better than "worse", doesn't it? It could be close. It's all a matter of what words you choose.

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post #30 of 31 Old 06-10-2010, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD_Lantern View Post

I will say this about the BE3, it does do a better of scaling and deinterlacing a 480i cable signal to 1080p than the BE2. For High-Def signals though, it probably doesn't make that much of a difference.

Hi ,

I bumped to this forum by googleling... Wanted to ask your opinion. I have a Normal DVD player (Output only 480p) and hooked thru Component cable . Does the Sony Bravia HDTV with BE3 handle the input signal and upscale the signal to 1080p? Compare to just buy additional DVD player with HDMI upscale? I found it is acceptable quality and dont think speeding addtional for new DVD with HDMI output will improve much. Any 2 cents opinion?

thanks
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