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post #31 of 1549 Old 06-23-2010, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Knd View Post

I'll write them down tonight when I get home and post them. I have 2 sets: Expert1 (daytime about 60 ftL of brightness) and Expert2 (nightime about 30 ftL of brightness).

I would defiantly appreciate it.
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post #32 of 1549 Old 06-23-2010, 09:10 PM
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Today Frys had a nice deal (a few hundred off) on the 42LD450 and I thought I would pick one up (I was waiting to buy a decent 42/47" LCD with a matte panel during the July 4th weekend) and here are some crude observations after setting it up:
* backlight is not super dark compared to the local dimming models (expected)
* colors are very nice out of the box
* with power saver, the backlight is off and the picture is better in a dark room
* since its a cheap IPS panel, there is some haze as I stare it at an angle. The IPS alpha of my prev Panasonic was better in this respect
* the pictures controls in the menu are very detailed ... need to calibrate it.
* tuner grabbed more channels than on my Panny.

Dont see any issues with the 60Hz set. Am wondering whether I should keep it, it definitely is a decent TV for a non-AV-snob. If that price was from an online store without the CA tax (ouch), it would have been a smashing buy.
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post #33 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MatrixShadow View Post

I would defiantly appreciate it.

Energy Save: Off
Picture Mode: Expert1 (or Expert2)

The table didn't line up very well, but the 1st number is for the Expert1 settings that I use for daytime, and the 2nd number is for Expert2 settings that are used for nighttime. The Luminance value is not important for these settings - it is only used when calibrating.

Expert1 Expert2
Backlight 45 (about 60ftL) 22 (about 30 ftL)
Contrast 94 94
Brightness 53 53
H Sharpness 50 50
V Sharpness 50 50
Color 50 50
Tint 0 0
Dynamic Contrast your choice your choice
Noise Reduction your choice your choice
DNR your choice your choice
black level low low
Real Cinema Off Off
Color Gamut BT709 BT709
Color Temp Warm Warm
Gamma 2.2 2.2
Method 10 pt 10 pt
Expert1
100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
R 49 10 8 6 3 5 4 2 0 -3 0
G 5 3 2 2 1 2 3 1 0 0 0
B -30 -11 -10 -7 -9 -6 -3 -2 -3 -8 0
Expert2
100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
R 50 9 6 6 4 4 5 2 0 -8 0
G 0 2 0 1 3 1 3 0 -2 2 0
B -50 -13 -15 -10 -7 -8 -4 -4 -5 -11 0
Expert1
Color Tint
R -2 15
G 25 19
B -3 -20
Y 10 -2
C 6 1
M 0 -2
Expert2
Color Tint
R -2 14
G 16 13
B -1 -22
Y 13 -2
C 10 0
M 1 -2
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post #34 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

That would be great if you could. I may get the set in any event and run the same measurements, would be interesting to see if we get similar results. Could always return the set if I don't like it.

I took a couple of black reading with the LT last night and it was no different, so this set doesn't have especially good blacks.

My 60ld550 arrived yesterday and I spent a couple of hours working on it, and it has much better blacks. I got 0.072 cd/m^2 on this set. I haven't been able to get the colors quite as accurate as the 450 series though. I also have it a tad too bright, so I'll probably work on it tomorrow and will open a new thread on this set.

My point is that if you want improved blacks you may want to go with the 550 series. The color differences aren't noticeable to me (where the black are).
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post #35 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Knd View Post

I took a couple of black reading with the LT last night and it was no different, so this set doesn't have especially good blacks.

My 60ld550 arrived yesterday and I spent a couple of hours working on it, and it has much better blacks. I got 0.072 cd/m^2 on this set. I haven't been able to get the colors quite as accurate as the 450 series though. I also have it a tad too bright, so I'll probably work on it tomorrow and will open a new thread on this set.

My point is that if you want improved blacks you may want to go with the 550 series. The color differences aren't noticeable to me (where the black are).

Interesting that the ld550 woudl be that much better than the 450.

With respect to color, how is the saturation given only the 2D CMS outside of the actual "Color/Saturation" control itself which obviously controls all primary and secondary saturations (CIE diagram doesn't really tell me much other than the red is over saturated)?

 

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post #36 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 06:41 AM
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FWIW, this site measure the black levels of the 350 series at 0.13/cdm2.

http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...mp;-Whites.htm

I think I've heard the black level measurements on this site are "suspect", though that may be for LED dimming sets.

According to the LG website, it has a 70,000:1 contrast ratio for the LD350 series vs a 100.000:1 for the LD450 series (and 150:1 for 550). While the figures are meaningless, one would think at least the ultimate black level of the 450 would be slightly deeper than the 350, and the 550 being the deepest. Though I guess it could also mean the peak whites are whiter?

 

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post #37 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Interesting that the ld550 woudl be that much better than the 450.

With respect to color, how is the saturation given only the 2D CMS outside of the actual "Color/Saturation" control itself which obviously controls all primary and secondary saturations (CIE diagram doesn't really tell me much other than the red is over saturated)?

I'm going to run the 30 saturation points on the 550 set probably tomorrow, so I'll see how the overall saturation is, not just at the 100% location, but 0, 25, 50, and 75% location for the 6 colors.
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post #38 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 09:04 AM
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What we are seeing here is a typical feature of IPS panels - great color, great viewing angles, not so great black levels and potentially lower lag. My monitors have LG IPS panels and have similar issues. I guess LED local dim corrects the black issue. SPVA panels on the other, used in Samsung, have better black levels but suffer from black crush effects ....

I personally prefer the properties of IPS panels. YMMV
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post #39 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Interesting that the ld550 woudl be that much better than the 450.

this is why i'm curious on what panels LG are using for their 2010 lineup

The xxlh30 thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1132241 has people with panel lottery receiving AUO, Sharp and LG Panels for the same model # TV. AUO panels had complaints about blurring artifacts and input lag but they might have better black levels to. LG panels had low input lag, minor blurring and were actually made by LG but suffered with poor black levels. Sharp i don't think anyone described in detail
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this is why i'm curious on what panels LG are using for their 2010 lineup

The xxlh30 thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1132241 has people with panel lottery receiving AUO, Sharp and LG Panels for the same model # TV. AUO panels had complaints about blurring artifacts and input lag but they might have better black levels to. LG panels had low input lag, minor blurring and were actually made by LG but suffered with poor black levels. Sharp i don't think anyone described in detail

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1123/...4d8a4b_b_d.jpg
dont have a macro lens but close inspection of the pic tells me its an IPS panel
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post #41 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Knd View Post

I took a couple of black reading with the LT last night and it was no different, so this set doesn't have especially good blacks.

My 60ld550 arrived yesterday and I spent a couple of hours working on it, and it has much better blacks. I got 0.072 cd/m^2 on this set. I haven't been able to get the colors quite as accurate as the 450 series though. I also have it a tad too bright, so I'll probably work on it tomorrow and will open a new thread on this set.

My point is that if you want improved blacks you may want to go with the 550 series. The color differences aren't noticeable to me (where the black are).

Something tells me that the 550 series doesnt use LG panels (they have 46" instead of 47"). Say if they are using PVA panels, you will get better blacks than the IPS panels.
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post #42 of 1549 Old 06-24-2010, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So the place I bought my 42LD450 from says they are not in stock and I am supposed to pick something comparable from their inventory. With my limited knowledge, it looks like the closest acceptable substitue is the Samsung LN40B530. How does this screen compare?
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post #43 of 1549 Old 06-25-2010, 07:07 PM
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So the place I bought my 42LD450 from says they are not in stock and I am supposed to pick something comparable from their inventory. With my limited knowledge, it looks like the closest acceptable substitue is the Samsung LN40B530. How does this screen compare?

the LG is 2" bigger!
LG has a matte finish vs Samsung's clear panel ....
LG has IPS (accurate color, better viewing angles)
Samsung's black levels are a little better but also suffer from black crush effect (PVA panels)
Samsung is a stronger brand in the US.

I cant tolerate the clear panels with glare et al so I wont buy a Samsung. YMMV
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post #44 of 1549 Old 06-26-2010, 12:41 PM
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Well, I decided what the heck, and picked up the set from CostCo. Will plug in your (knd's) settings and measure tonight if possible to see if they hold fairly well from set to set.

Never used a 10point RGB system before, so will be interesting to learn. Curious, what is the single "luminance" setting that appears to be greyed out? Does it simply act as a "color" control? I.e., saturation?

 

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post #45 of 1549 Old 06-26-2010, 07:42 PM
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Still not sure what the "luminance" setting does, so left it alone.

Knd, plugged in your settings, and my set measured WAY off, the DE's for greyscale were all over 30, and primary/secondaries were way off (yellow and green were the only DE's under 40!), luminance was a mess and gamma was a disaster under 60%.

Spent 30 minutes recalibrating, and the results were visually much better and measured better as well. Though the temperature ended up too red (below 6500) under 60%, and I spent some time trying to fix it but kept ending up the same. Will have to learn how the various % adjustments impact each other with the 10pt system the LG uses.

Colors ended up decent, but the 2D CMS system wasn't overly useful. Could get the luminance of the colors almost bangon, but that's about it. Fooling with the "tint" adjustment for each color tended to make the colors worse for the most part. But they ranged from a DE of 2.4 to 6.5, and really anything below "10" is pretty good, while anything below a DE of 3 is supposedly almost impossible to detect with the human eye.

So either our sets are way off in terms of QC, or our measuring tools are!!

For anyone without measuring tools, I'd recco leaving the white balance and CMS adjustments alone. Stick to Expert 1 and use a setup DVD to set contrast, brightness, then color and tint (keep the color temp at warm and all the fancy stuff "off", unless you prefer Dynamic contrast and other gimicky stuff). You'll probably be better off that way.

I may keep this set though, as it looks quite nice for a $599 LCD. Black levels are decent, IF you sit directly in front of the TV, colors are pretty natural (green is a bit over saturated but not horrible), and I don't notice any motion issues.

Cons are typical of LCD's. Anything remotely off-axis and the PQ takes a dramatic turn for the worse. I.e., blacks turn a brutal shade of blue, hazey screen, etc. My main set is a 60" Samsung plasma from a couple years ago, and it's astonishing how incredible the PQ is from any angle in comparison!

Have 90 days to return it, so I'll keep playing around with it and once I get grey scale to a point where I'm happy, will post the settings (even though they may be useless).

I may try to price match (if a site that has a cheaper price actually gets them in stock) in which case I'll end up returning this one and calibrate a new one to see how close the settings hold.

 

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post #46 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 02:58 AM
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I may keep this set though, as it looks quite nice for a $599 LCD. B

The 42" is $599 Canadian at Costco in your province?
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post #47 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 04:11 AM
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Sorry, mispoke. I purchased it for $649 at CostCo. But another big retailor in Canada has it listed on their site at $599, but out of stock. So I'm hoping it will come into stock in the next couple weeks (says ships early July) and I'll go to their sister company (another large retailor) and get them to price match/beat it by 10% per their policy (they either beat it by 10%, or take another 10% off of the price difference, can't recall).

 

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post #48 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 04:14 AM
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Go back up to the IRE box, and select 90 IRE. The full screen should then display a dimmer white. Arrow down to Red and you will see a number next to Nits (same as cd/m^2). You should balance R, G, and B for 90 IRE, but also move them all up or down to hit the Y value that matches the Nits. This will balance the RGB but also will dial in the perfect brightness to match the gamma.

Just rereading this. I use ColorHCFR btw. What did you mean by "see a number next to Nits". What is "Nits"?

 

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post #49 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 05:18 AM
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I tried to take a Macro shot of the screen, but this was the best I could do. Not sure if this tells anyone anything as it's relatively blurry ...


LL

 

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post #50 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Still not sure what the "luminance" setting does, so left it alone.

Knd, plugged in your settings, and my set measured WAY off, the DE's for greyscale were all over 30, and primary/secondaries were way off (yellow and green were the only DE's under 40!), luminance was a mess and gamma was a disaster under 60%.

Spent 30 minutes recalibrating, and the results were visually much better and measured better as well. Though the temperature ended up too red (below 6500) under 60%, and I spent some time trying to fix it but kept ending up the same. Will have to learn how the various % adjustments impact each other with the 10pt system the LG uses.

Colors ended up decent, but the 2D CMS system wasn't overly useful. Could get the luminance of the colors almost bangon, but that's about it. Fooling with the "tint" adjustment for each color tended to make the colors worse for the most part. But they ranged from a DE of 2.4 to 6.5, and really anything below "10" is pretty good, while anything below a DE of 3 is supposedly almost impossible to detect with the human eye.

So either our sets are way off in terms of QC, or our measuring tools are!!

For anyone without measuring tools, I'd recco leaving the white balance and CMS adjustments alone. Stick to Expert 1 and use a setup DVD to set contrast, brightness, then color and tint (keep the color temp at warm and all the fancy stuff "off", unless you prefer Dynamic contrast and other gimicky stuff). You'll probably be better off that way.

I may keep this set though, as it looks quite nice for a $599 LCD. Black levels are decent, IF you sit directly in front of the TV, colors are pretty natural (green is a bit over saturated but not horrible), and I don't notice any motion issues.

Cons are typical of LCD's. Anything remotely off-axis and the PQ takes a dramatic turn for the worse. I.e., blacks turn a brutal shade of blue, hazey screen, etc. My main set is a 60" Samsung plasma from a couple years ago, and it's astonishing how incredible the PQ is from any angle in comparison!

Have 90 days to return it, so I'll keep playing around with it and once I get grey scale to a point where I'm happy, will post the settings (even though they may be useless).

I may try to price match (if a site that has a cheaper price actually gets them in stock) in which case I'll end up returning this one and calibrate a new one to see how close the settings hold.

The luminance box does nothing to any adjustments, but is used to calculate target Y values based upon the gamma you seleted. What you do is take the Y reading at 100 IRE and increase or decrease the value in the luminance box (using the left or right arrow) until it matches your 100 IRE Y reading. Then when you go to the 90 IRE box and move down to red, you will see a number in the red header box next to "nits". This number is the target brightness for the gamma you selected.

As an example: 100 IRE Y is 140 cd/m^2 (cd/m^2 is the same as nits). You have previously selected gamma of 2.2. You plug 140 into the luminance box. You then pull up the 90 IRE pattern. You scroll down to Red, and you will see 111 nits in the Red header box. Suppose Red is at 110%, you pull the red adjustment down to get Red around 100%. You then go to Green (and the 111 nits will appear in that header box also). You then adjust Green. You then go to Blue (and the 111 nits will appear in that header box also). You then adjust Blue. So now as the example, you have R 99%, G 99% and B 100%, but your Y reading is 108. The TV has calculated what the Y reading should be at 90 IRE (based upon the 140 you put in the luminance box), and it should be 111 cd/m^2 (or nits). You now need to go back and increase your colors. I always start with Green and move this up a tick, then adjust Red, and finally Blue. You keep doing this until you get 4 things balanced, R, G, B (as close to 100% as possible for each color) and Y, matching the "nits" value. Once the 4 are balanced, you move down to 80 IRE. In this example the value in the Red header box is now 85.7 nits. This is now your new target for the Y value in cd/m^2.

This works very well, see the 2 attachments of my white balance and gamma for my 60ld550.

The reason that my setting might not have measured well is that I used an offset of my LT based upon my i1Pro. My LT reads too much red and this offset corrects this. In the display calibration forum, you can open up the attached HCFR file and copy the offset if you wish. Stereomandan copied my offset file and said it helped his calibration of his plasma, as his LT also read too much red.

Hoped this helps.
LL
LL
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post #51 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 05:38 AM
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Here are my settings. Will have to go back and redo once I figure out how backlight and contrast interact (struggling with this as I'm used to calibrating plasmas and CRT sets, never did an LCD before) as my gamma curve is far from optimal right now.

BTW, black level at 0IRE measures at 0.07cd/m2 on my meter, which IMO if accurate is pretty darn good for a budget plasma and up there with the Samsung's. Knd, when I used your settings, this came to 0.12cd/m2 FWIW.

Settings deleted - see new settings below

 

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post #52 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 05:46 AM
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Thanks for the reply, using ColorHCFR, after adjusting the Luminance value at 100IRE I simply adjusted the RGB values to get the x/y values to 0.313 and 0.329 (or 100% RGB), so maybe that's why my gamma is off? Here are my charts ...
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post #53 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 05:50 AM
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The reason that my setting might not have measured well is that I used an offset of my LT based upon my i1Pro. My LT reads too much red and this offset corrects this. In the display calibration forum, you can open up the attached HCFR file and copy the offset if you wish. Stereomandan copied my offset file and said it helped his calibration of his plasma, as his LT also read too much red.

Unless my LT has drifted in the last 1.5 years since I bought it, I really lucked out with it. I calibrated my Plasma with it, then had Michael TLV in to recalibrate it (as I was curious how close I was), and using his instruments he basically said my set was pretty much spot on (outside of say the 10IRE levels which even with his instruments he said this was difficult). Even colors were spot on, which surprised me given there is a lot of dispute as to whether the Display LT and similar devices accurately measure primaries and secondaries.

 

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post #54 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 07:45 AM
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Went through another calibration, this time with gamma at 2.4 (I kind of like a higher gamma on some sets so will try this out), and paid attention to the correct Y values for each IRE (hard to see on ColorHCFR with Windows 7). Incredible results, a set this cheap shouldn't measure this well!!

Here are the new settings:

Expert1
Backlight 33 35 ftL
Contrast 86
Brightness 52
H Sharpness 50
V Sharpness 50
Color 53
Tint G5
Dynamic Contrast Off
Noise Reduction Off
DNR Off
black level Low
Real Cinema Off
Color Gamut BT709
Color Temp Warm
Gamma 2.4
Method 10 pt 10pt
Expert1
Luminance 114
IRE 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
R 6 -1 2 -1 0 -2 -2 -4 -5 -6 50
G 9 9 9 6 5 -1 -2 -5 -6 -10 44
B 3 5 5 -1 -2 -7 -8 -15 -24 -22 -50
CMS Color Tint
R 9 -18
G 0 -11
B -1 12
Y 17 -2
C -2 1
M 2 -3

 

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post #55 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 07:50 AM
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I am now measuring 0.05cd/m2 as the 0IRE black level on these. Seems too low to be true, but it looks quite good.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

 

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post #56 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 08:41 AM
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I am now measuring 0.05cd/m2 as the 0IRE black level on these. Seems too low to be true, but it looks quite good.

Great results. The 10 pt system really works well and is quite easy to dial in a flat gamma curve and excellent grayscale.
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post #57 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 08:42 AM
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Unless my LT has drifted in the last 1.5 years since I bought it, I really lucked out with it. I calibrated my Plasma with it, then had Michael TLV in to recalibrate it (as I was curious how close I was), and using his instruments he basically said my set was pretty much spot on (outside of say the 10IRE levels which even with his instruments he said this was difficult). Even colors were spot on, which surprised me given there is a lot of dispute as to whether the Display LT and similar devices accurately measure primaries and secondaries.

That's good news on your LT. My had the red push from day one.
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post #58 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 09:01 AM
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Quite impressed with this budget LCD, outside of the HDMI inputs (only 1 on the back?? Come on LG!!) and viewing angles, it's a very impressive performer.

 

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post #59 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 01:59 PM
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I tried to take a Macro shot of the screen, but this was the best I could do. Not sure if this tells anyone anything as it's relatively blurry ...

awesome

not sure what panel that is however
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post #60 of 1549 Old 06-27-2010, 02:42 PM
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Okay, switched back to 2.2 Gamma, and ended up doing a Day calibration (at 50ftL) and a Night time one (at approx. 35ftL).

Expert1 (Day)
Backlight 50 50ftL
Contrast 86
Brightness 52
H Sharpness 50
V Sharpness 50
Color 53
Tint G5
Dynamic Contrast Off
Noise Reduction Off
DNR Off
black level Low
Real Cinema Off
Color Gamut BT709
Color Temp Warm
Gamma 2.2
Method 10 pt 10pt
Expert1
Luminance 169
IRE 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
R 11 4 5 1 1 0 1 -3 -5 -8 50
G 9 10 9 6 6 3 1 -3 -7 -12 50
B 4 7 7 3 2 -2 -4 -10 -19 -23 -50
CMS Color Tint
R 9 -18
G 1 -11
B -1 12
Y 20 -2
C -2 1
M 2 -3


Expert2 (Night)
Backlight 37 35ftL
Contrast 85
Brightness 43
H Sharpness 50
V Sharpness 50
Color 50
Tint 0
Dynamic Contrast Off
Noise Reduction Off
DNR Off
black level Low
Real Cinema Off
Color Gamut BT709
Color Temp Warm
Gamma 2.2
Method 10 pt 10pt
Expert1
Luminance 113
IRE 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
R -3 0 4 4 6 7 6 5 6 7 50
G 6 5 8 6 7 5 6 3 4 1 50
B 8 -3 0 -2 -1 -2 -3 -5 -10 -15 -50
CMS Color Tint
R 6 0
G 5 -20
B 5 27
Y 22 -5
C 1 0
M 5 -4

 

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