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post #61 of 84 Old 06-23-2010, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaDude View Post

okay... wait 'till those blacks start rising and burn in starts...
V20, didn't I already send you a link about the "terrible banding problem?"
http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/448534.aspx

And if they don't? lol which i don't think they will. It seems long as your good to your set. Burn in isn't an issue
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post #62 of 84 Old 06-23-2010, 04:12 PM
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burn-in posts:

g20:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2189

800u:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1645

pioneer:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=280



You could say those are just severe IR. But if the IR lasts for months at a time, what does it matter if it's burn-in or image retention?
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post #63 of 84 Old 06-23-2010, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

And if they don't? lol which i don't think they will. It seems long as your good to your set. Burn in isn't an issue

There is no perfect TV no matter the price point. Every TV has some shortcoming. The critical thing is to choose one which throws a good pic and whose shortcoming bothers you the least.
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post #64 of 84 Old 06-23-2010, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

And if they don't? lol which i don't think they will. It seems long as your good to your set. Burn in isn't an issue

If they don't, then you're still stuck with the V20's banding problem...
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post #65 of 84 Old 06-23-2010, 08:41 PM
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I've got a 54" G20 and it is spectacular. Blacks and shadow details are the bomb. The led's can't get close on dark scene detail...


As far as the "rising blacks"..............

From another poster on another board........

"Now the new 2010 Panasonic models are said to adjust this lightening of blacks much slower and only time will tell if this happens, but they are getting great reviews for the G20/G25 series and here is one that shows how black levels compare between the Panasonic plasma and the Samsung & LG plasmas that this well respected calibrator had for readings:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...sung_pnxxc7000

Here is the part where they are compared:


Quote:
Quote: Since I had two other recently released plasmas nearby that I had just calibrated, I couldn't resist doing a comparison between the C7000, the LG PK750, and the Panasonic G25. While screen size varied, I did calibrate all of them to a similar light output. This particular LG PK750 was not the sample I originally reviewed; it was the one on which I was able to successfully adjust it's 20 point white balance/gamma adjustment. That will not be possible most of the time unless LG makes a correction in it's adjustments, and it gave this particular PK750 an advantage. Please see my review of the PK750 for the complete explanation.

With a 0% black signal, the G25 had the darkest, inkiest blacks in a dark room. The PK750's blacks were neutral toned but quite a bit lighter than the G25. It is possible, however, that as the G25 ages it's black level would be more similar to the LG and Samsung because of it's allegedly rising black level. The C7000's blacks looked very close to the PK750's, though a bit more greenish. With the lights on, the G25 suppressed reflections better than the PK750 or the C7000. Looking at the demo material on the DVE Essentials Blu Ray, I saw excellent skin tones on both the G25 and PK750, while complexions looked a bit too red on the C7000. There was a textured look on the PK750 that was only barely noticeable and was probably a byproduct of some edge enhancement. All three sets seemed to handle pans and motion about the same; there was a slight jerkiness that seemed to suggest none of the sets were displaying the 1080P/24 signal at a multiple of 24. The G25 and PK750 had good depth and pop, while the C7000 had richer, more vibrant color. The G25 had neutral toned but slightly overemphasized shadow detail. The PK750's shadow detail was a bit less neutral with a slightly greenish tone, but also appeared a bit overemphasized. The C7000's shadow detail was probably the most neutral when both color tone and visibility were taken into account. The G25's image seemed just a tiny bit crisper.

Overall, I think the C7000 is a very good set with textbook measurements. It's color may be too vibrant for some while the cat's meow for others; and it's black level is not as dark as I would prefer, but in every other way it is a stand out set.

Here is where he measured the black levels of the PN50C7000:


Quote:
Quote: 1080i and 1080P resolution in dot by dot mode was perfect and strong. Black level, measured with a low light sensitive colorimeter profiled off the Eye One Pro meter on this TV, measured .033 fL. Black had a very slightly greenish cast. The modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 958:1. The C7000 could be calibrated to be nice and bright; I calibrated peak white to match 2 other plasmas nearby to facilitate a three way comparison at around 45-47 fL, though it could have easily gone higher.

Here is where he measured the the G25 black levels:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...g20__tc_pxxg25


Quote:
Quote: ANSI contrast measured 1663:1, and black level measured .0083 fL with my Trichromat-1 colorimeter, which is more accurate and reliable at very low light levels than either the Chroma5 or i1Pro. The rest of the calibration was done with the i1Pro, since it is better with everything else besides the very dark readings.
This shows that the black level on the 2010 model would have to get 4x lighter just to be as light as the 2010 Samsung plasma is out of the box.

Another thing to remember is that the larger screen models 58" and higher actually start our even darker with the black levels too. Since the OP is getting the bigger screen sizes his black levels will start even lower also, so they will likely never get as light as the smaller screen models either.

Lets provide ALL the facts when we are talking about this issue and how it is relevant that the Panasonics start out much lower than the competition as well."

These really are spectacular TV's....and the VT series is even better than the G series.
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post #66 of 84 Old 06-23-2010, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post

burn-in posts:

g20:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2189

800u:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1645

pioneer:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=280

You could say those are just severe IR. But if the IR lasts for months at a time, what does it matter if it's burn-in or image retention?

That's for the info. Although not even 1 of these sets were a VT20/VT25.......
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post #67 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 07:13 AM
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soderholmd; I appreciate your massive copy and paste abilities, but after what we have seen with the rising blacks issue, there is simply no freaking way I would ever buy a Panny Plasma. An associate of mine has one of those things and he is still pissed off at what he ended up with from that manufacturer. Good luck with it though.
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post #68 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 08:08 AM
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soderholmd: Here is a little broader sampling from the same fella

http://hdtvbychadb.com/reviews.htm
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post #69 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaDude View Post

soderholmd; I appreciate your massive copy and paste abilities, but after what we have seen with the rising blacks issue, there is simply no freaking way I would ever buy a Panny Plasma. An associate of mine has one of those things and he is still pissed off at what he ended up with from that manufacturer. Good luck with it though.

I can imagine not being happy with a set you buy and end up stuck with. Trust me. I have 45 days to try this puppy out. If I'm not 100% happy. It goes right back to the store. Really doesn't bother me one bit.
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post #70 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Both sets seem to get "crush blacks" and you seem to end up losing detail. There a way to fix this? Easily?
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post #71 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Both sets seem to get "crush blacks" and you seem to end up losing detail. There a way to fix this? Easily?

Proper calibration/tunning of the set will fix crushed blacks
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post #72 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Proper calibration/tunning of the set will fix crushed blacks

Tips? Without forking out Money?
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post #73 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Tips? Without forking out Money?

you should be able to just use http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496 to properly set the brightness right? I have no experience with local dimming sets though, does the conventional method not work?
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post #74 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Just use what? lol
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post #75 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Just use what? lol

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

^ that calibration disc. it has a pluge pattern on it to allow proper setting of the brightness control
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post #76 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Riiiiiight. That cleared it up!?
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post #77 of 84 Old 06-24-2010, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Tips? Without forking out Money?

Spend some time researching black crush here and on the calibration forum so that you understand what you are dealing with. Then you can understand the greyscale adjustments you need to make and fix the problem yourself. Gotta do some of the work yourself.
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post #78 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Both sets seem to get "crush blacks" and you seem to end up losing detail. There a way to fix this? Easily?

Best way to sort this is to read up on grayscale calibration. There is a link on this forum, do a search for greyscale calibration for dummies. To acheive the a decent picture invest in a colorimeter. The eyeone display LT is a good one for starting and you can download HCFR calibration software and follow the guide I mentioned above that will walk you through.

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post #79 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. It's hard for me to research what I need to just because I'm doing all of this on my phone. Work Internet sucks lol. Guess I'll have to try. Thanks for the info. So I guess the easiest way to find what I'm looking for is searching "black crush fix" or "how to adjust grayscale?"
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post #80 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 07:02 AM
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This is a perfect example... you have literally hundreds of opinions/posts/ADVICE in reference to black levels and detail, shadow or otherwise, and yet I'll then read a post that suggest that greyscale and black crush are concepts completely foreign to you? It's a little disingenuous for newer members looking for advice.
You will have better results doing a search on grayscale and like others have said the calibration forum is a great source. Good luck, there some good reading in there.
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post #81 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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As I said though. I'm reading and posting all on my phone. So its harder for me. But I'll look. Hopefully I'll find a fix. Thanks
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post #82 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topr View Post

This is a perfect example... you have literally hundreds of opinions/posts/ADVICE in reference to black levels and detail, shadow or otherwise, and yet I'll then read a post that suggest that greyscale and black crush are concepts completely foreign to you? It's a little disingenuous for newer members looking for advice.
You will have better results doing a search on grayscale and like others have said the calibration forum is a great source. Good luck, there some good reading in there.

Well he is a Best Buy employee if that helps explain anything
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post #83 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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It explains everything. Ruche
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post #84 of 84 Old 06-25-2010, 10:00 AM
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Zzzzzzzzz...
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