Official Sony XBR HX909 owners' thread (52HX909, 46HX909, HX9, HX900) - Page 92 - AVS Forum
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post #2731 of 2897 Old 09-06-2011, 10:22 AM
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Since HDMI came onto the scene all those years ago, this is not the first time I have seen someone claim component looks better than HDMI, and they are shocked as to why.

It's been so long since I even had a set of component cables. Would like to test this out....
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post #2732 of 2897 Old 09-06-2011, 11:31 AM
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Hey Agi,please do,I`d be extremely interested to find out your findings...believe me,I know it makes no sense given the HDMI regard but my eyes aint lyin` here...looking forward to your reply if only to determine my set is sort of a freak!
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post #2733 of 2897 Old 09-06-2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewalk Gum View Post

One nagging question has to do with motion handling. I'm noticing blur in the form of ghosting/strobing during quick movement on Blu Rays and DVDs. It usually takes the form of a slight double arm, leg or head as a character moves across the screen. It happens with or without Motionflow activated, though I usually keep it off and it seems to be worst in that case. If I pause the frame, I will see significant blur in the source, but not the doubling effect.

A lot of research here and elsewhere leads me to believe it's either 1) LCD's "sample and hold" effect; 2) my eyes; or 3) [most likely] the nature of 24fps playback. If it's the latter, I presume I'd still be seeing this effect if I'd stuck with a plasma?

I see this too. I notice it on panning shots, where the motion as a whole is perfectly smooth, but small structures in the picture seem to be constantly lagging behind and catching up. Other people don't seem to notice it...
I only experience it with 24p material; I think it is caused by small errors in the interpolation algorithms, when motionflow is calculating frames to display between the real 24 frames. This is the trouble with 24p I think; it just isn't enough for really smooth motion; the TV needs to compensate by calculating these extra frames in between; it is fundamentally impossible to do this without some artifacts. I've never seen a TV that handles it better than the HX900 though.

See "www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm"

Note that when watching sports (e.g. eurosport HD, or Formula 1), and some documentaries, these artifact are completely absent, and motion is nearly perfect. I think these are broadcast in 50 or 60 Hz.

Too bad that almost everything is shot in 24p nowadays (blue ray movies, TV series etc...). I don't understand the 24p hype, since judder is clearly noticable (even in the cinema).
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post #2734 of 2897 Old 09-07-2011, 08:07 AM
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I see this too. I notice it on panning shots, where the motion as a whole is perfectly smooth, but small structures in the picture seem to be constantly lagging behind and catching up. Other people don't seem to notice it...

Thanks for the reply.The background judder is something different. I notice that too, but it seems to be a pretty normal thing with 24p sources.

What I'm curious about is the double outlines of arms, legs, shoulders, etc. when a character is moving across the foreground on my HX909. If that's an artifact of any 24p source, then c'est la vie. But if it's an artifact of LCD, I'll be a little less happy.

I'm thinking it's the source, but just hoping for some confirmation.
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post #2735 of 2897 Old 09-07-2011, 10:32 AM
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Just picked up a possible replacement 46HX909. while the screen image looks pretty good - whiter whites than my original unit - it has a crooked "XBR" emblem glued in the top corner and 3-4 dead pixels. Any thoughts on whether I should keep it, given these issues?

Thanks,

John
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post #2736 of 2897 Old 09-07-2011, 10:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsulmeyer View Post

Just picked up a possible replacement 46HX909. while the screen image looks pretty good - whiter whites than my original unit - it has a crooked "XBR" emblem glued in the top corner and 3-4 dead pixels. Any thoughts on whether I should keep it, given these issues?

Thanks,

John

Depends what it can be exchanged for...

Unless you can get a 46HX929 for a bit more i would stick with it.
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post #2737 of 2897 Old 09-08-2011, 09:08 AM
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Anyone experiencing "Content Error" when trying to watch Netflix movies with the 909 model?

It seems that these models do not have any buffer for error correction in the event of Packet Errors.
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post #2738 of 2897 Old 09-08-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by PCTools View Post

Anyone experiencing "Content Error" when trying to watch Netflix movies with the 909 model?

It seems that these models do not have any buffer for error correction in the event of Packet Errors.

Usually when I see it, it will happen repeatedly, and I am unable to load either the description pages or the movies themselves. This is not due to packet errors since it is not random, more than likely something is screwed up on Sony's server. (All Netflix traffic routes through Sony's infastructure on Sony devices, which is why performance is not the best.)

At least once I was able to stop the behavior by power cycling the TV (using the physical switch on the side panel, not sending it to standby), which tells me something was going on, probably with the TV's network stack or the app engine software that was causing the issue. This does not always work, in my experience, which is why I think their servers may also factor in. We can already guess from the repeated security breaches that their servers are probably not well maintained.

One time I did get one while watching a movie, which kicked me back out into the app interface. I was able to resume the movie and finish it without issue. This could be, as you guess, a random packet error. My guess however is that Netflix is storing sections of the movie in separate files (for fast resuming and skipping though the movie) and that the content error I saw occurred at one of the "seams" where the next file failed to load correctly.
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post #2739 of 2897 Old 09-08-2011, 01:21 PM
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Good feedback, as I have been fighting this error since my purchase with endless Content Errors. Netflix has confirmed that this is an "epidemic" for the Sony TV's.

You solution is a fix, yet I do not like power cycling the TV 5 times a night to watch my favorite films.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepanator View Post

Usually when I see it, it will happen repeatedly, and I am unable to load either the description pages or the movies themselves. This is not due to packet errors since it is not random, more than likely something is screwed up on Sony's server. (All Netflix traffic routes through Sony's infastructure on Sony devices, which is why performance is not the best.)

At least once I was able to stop the behavior by power cycling the TV (using the physical switch on the side panel, not sending it to standby), which tells me something was going on, probably with the TV's network stack or the app engine software that was causing the issue. This does not always work, in my experience, which is why I think their servers may also factor in. We can already guess from the repeated security breaches that their servers are probably not well maintained.

One time I did get one while watching a movie, which kicked me back out into the app interface. I was able to resume the movie and finish it without issue. This could be, as you guess, a random packet error. My guess however is that Netflix is storing sections of the movie in separate files (for fast resuming and skipping though the movie) and that the content error I saw occurred at one of the "seams" where the next file failed to load correctly.

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post #2740 of 2897 Old 09-08-2011, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCTools View Post

Good feedback, as I have been fighting this error since my purchase with endless Content Errors. Netflix has confirmed that this is an "epidemic" for the Sony TV's.

You solution is a fix, yet I do not like power cycling the TV 5 times a night to watch my favorite films.

It doesn't happen nearly that often on my set, but I happen to live in San Diego, within 15 miles of where Sony's servers are actually located. I'd bet that additional distance/transfer time makes your TV a lot less reliable.

I'll probably end up getting an AppleTV for handling Netflix once they finally get it updated to handle closed captioning. (Easiest way to sell it to the finance committee, since she's asked about that a couple of times already. I'm already sold, since it will output 5.1 audio vs stereo and more than likely improve the picture quality.)

If you have another (non-Sony) Netflix device it might be a good idea to use that instead. (Although I have heard the PS3 is a great Netflix device, it must have bucked the trend.)
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post #2741 of 2897 Old 09-13-2011, 10:25 PM
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so what's the most popular vote when it comes to using 3D glasses with this TV? Sony brand or is there something better/nicer?
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post #2742 of 2897 Old 09-13-2011, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMPMERIDIAN View Post

Nothing beats or compares to the Elite.

I've owned a 50" Kuro Elite for almost two years and I've been very happy with it. but I recently had the urge to update to newer 3D tech so I decided to try the 46HX909.

let's just say I was so impressed with my new Sony that I have replaced the Kuro Elite with the Sony in my living room and now my Elite is in my master bedroom.
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post #2743 of 2897 Old 09-14-2011, 04:23 AM
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What's up fellow awesome TV owners! I've been away for a while, currently catching up on my avsforum knowledge...
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post #2744 of 2897 Old 09-14-2011, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziegn View Post

I've owned a 50" Kuro Elite for almost two years and I've been very happy with it. but I recently had the urge to update to newer 3D tech so I decided to try the 46HX909.

let's just say I was so impressed with my new Sony that I have replaced the Kuro Elite with the Sony in my living room and now my Elite is in my master bedroom.

ozziegn -- Congrats on the new set! What difference (if any) do you notice in motion handling between the Kuro and the HX909? Specifically film-based 2D material with MotionFlow off?
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post #2745 of 2897 Old 09-14-2011, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidewalk Gum View Post

ozziegn -- Congrats on the new set! What difference (if any) do you notice in motion handling between the Kuro and the HX909? Specifically film-based 2D material with MotionFlow off?

I don't notice much if any between my two TVs. but then again, I'm not as picky as some people are on this forum. I don't make it a habit of buying a new TV only to pick it apart. I actually enjoy my new TVs to the fullest.
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post #2746 of 2897 Old 09-14-2011, 02:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ozziegn View Post

I don't notice much if any between my two TVs. but then again, I'm not as picky as some people are on this forum. I don't make it a habit of buying a new TV only to pick it apart. I actually enjoy my new TVs to the fullest.

What differences do you notice in overall PQ? Not just motion but all other aspects...
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post #2747 of 2897 Old 09-15-2011, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper2847 View Post

What differences do you notice in overall PQ? Not just motion but all other aspects...

Viper im not sure if you were involved with the discussions over the xbr4 forum a couple of years back but im not sure if i saw a calibation settings post for the hx909...My xbr4 panel went out for the third time ..pc richards is coming out to check out the tv but at that time the xbr4 was thought of to have the best pq then later it was the xbr8...i love the picture out thebox on the hx909 so far but i want to calibrate it correctly...im so annoyed wih the xbr4 fiasco but it was to be expected since so many were faulty
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post #2748 of 2897 Old 09-15-2011, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Viper2847 View Post

What differences do you notice in overall PQ? Not just motion but all other aspects...

I like how sharp the overall PQ is with my HX909. I remember back when I also had my XBR4 I was kind of annoyed with how the entire screen had the screen door window effect.

for some reason, these newer Sony's don't have that much. but then again, I've been out of the LCD loop for almost three years since I bought my Pioneer Kuro Elite.
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post #2749 of 2897 Old 09-16-2011, 12:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ozziegn View Post

I like how sharp the overall PQ is with my HX909. I remember back when I also had my XBR4 I was kind of annoyed with how the entire screen had the screen door window effect.

for some reason, these newer Sony's don't have that much. but then again, I've been out of the LCD loop for almost three years since I bought my Pioneer Kuro Elite.

Interesting, I never heard of this screen door effect. What is it exactly?
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post #2750 of 2897 Old 09-16-2011, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Viper2847 View Post


Interesting, I never heard of this screen door effect. What is it exactly?

I've never heard of it either. And until recently I've never heard of "dirty screen effect" either. And you know what? I don't care to know about either of them until I'm in the market for a new TV. I already own and love the thing, I'm certainly not gonna look for flaws in it to accomplish nothing but being less happy with my TV.
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post #2751 of 2897 Old 09-16-2011, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Viper2847 View Post

Interesting, I never heard of this screen door effect. What is it exactly?

My definition of the screen door effect is: When watching the SD (standard definition) channels the picture would look as though you were watching it through a screen door. It was explained to me that the SD channels are broadcasted in 480i (at least with Cox cable) but once you go to the HD channels the picture looks great.

I presently have a Pioneer Elite Pro-141FD in the living room and it does a great job (not perfect) showing SD channels. It was also explained to me that my 141 does a better job with the SD channels because of the internal processor. I have an older Costco Panasonic 42 plasma 1080I set that is my office in my house and it does terrible with SD channels.

Earlier this year I bought a 46" 909 from Fry's when they were selling it for $999, my wife loves the picture but not the sound from the 909. I was going to install one of my spare receivers in the bedroom but the wife of 25 years quickly but the brakes on the installation. She wanted the Bose two speaker system and that is what I bought her (A happy wife is a happy life.) I am impressed with picture quality of the 909. A big plus with the 909 is that the display is cool and produces no heat unlike my 141 that could heat my living room with the heat the screen produces.
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post #2752 of 2897 Old 09-16-2011, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ozziegn View Post

so what's the most popular vote when it comes to using 3D glasses with this TV? Sony brand or is there something better/nicer?

Sony's glasses blows balls... Had the 250 models, which were supposed to be the best newest design... They were just terrible.

I feel the xpand's are awesome because they are comfortable, colors seem to be a little richer vs the sony seemed to be cooler to me. The Xpand's also seemed sharper to me but comfort a was the main thing.

I am using a bdp s780 which was definitely better than the s580 I think in terms of 3d.... 2d is all the same....
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post #2753 of 2897 Old 09-20-2011, 11:09 PM
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Ever since I got my XBR46HX909 I've been both frustrated by the blooming effect around bright objects with dark backgrounds and COMPLETELY surprised that so many professional-minded A/V folks here don't seem to mind it. It's not just end movie credits on a black screen that annoy me to no end; it occurs in random scenes, as well. I'm wondering if some panels are a LOT worse than others or if there generally very similar. I've tried three so far and while mine might be a touch worse than the others, the blooming on the others was profound, as well. I'm attaching a few pictures and I'd REALLY appreciate feedback as to whether what I'm seeing is typical or an extreme case (i.e. bad panel). I simply find it hard to believe that others could be getting the same results as I'm getting and are not as frustrated as I am.

I realize that the blooming is less noticeable when sitting directly in front of the set rather than off-angle and, yes, these pictures were taken off-angle to not only get the blooming to show up on my iPhone camera, but to illustrate that when I watch movies with guests in my living room, whomever is not sitting directly in front of the set sees the excessive blooming (and comments on it!).

Could someone PLEASE tell me if mine looks worse than their panel or if I'm just more sensitive to the issue than others?

Thanks,

John

P.S. - I heard once from a guy who seemed to know what he was talking about that Fry's get's sub-standard TVs from manufacturers, where grade "A" TV panels might go to Amazon or Best Buy and Fry's might get grade "B" or "C". Has anyone else heard this? Could this be the reason the blooming on my set (and the other ones I tried) is so bad?
LL
LL
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post #2754 of 2897 Old 09-21-2011, 12:34 AM
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That looks normal for over-exposed off-axis photographs.

The point is that it is negligible in probably 95% of content when calibrated to the proper brightness level and viewed on-axis.


Local-dimming LCDs (or any LCD for that matter) look terrible when viewed off-axis. There's not really anything that can be done about it.

As far as I am concerned, if you are paying the premium for a local-dimming LED backlit display, you clearly care about image quality rather than someone who just buys an LED screen because it's thin. If you care about image quality, you're probably not going to be sitting off to the side of the TV. It just doesn't factor into things as being an issue at all.

If it is an issue, buy a Plasma (but they have far bigger problems elsewhere, in my opinion) or wait until we finally have a real CRT replacement, which might happen around 2015 if OLED finally comes out in larger sizes at somewhat affordable prices. Everything you buy today is a compromise in several areas of performance, you just have to pick what compromises you're OK with.
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post #2755 of 2897 Old 09-21-2011, 05:36 AM
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^what he said.

To add. When I first got my set my buddy was at my house watching 3DBR and a lot of other Blu-Rays with me all the time. This lasted for a few weeks, as both of us love movies and neither of us have owned anything close to an HX909. Naturally, my recliner was dead square to the TV, and he sat next to me in another recliner as close as comfortable for two heterosexual males lol , in order to sacrifice as little PQ as possible. About two weeks in while watching RE: A 3DBR for the 2nd time, I suggested that we switch seats for shits and giggles. We were both amazed at the difference in PQ, and the seats are pretty darn close together. On the other hand, he had no complaints about PQ before or after and nor do I. It's my spot, so I get the dead on seat, and I'd be an idiot to spend $5,000 and counting on a home theater and give that up. But at the same time if I went to a friend's house that had the same TV, I would have no complaints and the slight loss in PQ wouldn't even enter my mind unless I had a severely off-axis seat.

IMO with the Pioneer Elite already available and the LG LW9800 (hopefully) dropping soon, plasma is officially on it's way out the door, perhaps even before OLED is widely available/affordable.

On a side note, I can't wait to read a pro review on a 55LW9800. 288 dimming zones AND passive 3D<-- (I'm a fan) = WOW.
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post #2756 of 2897 Old 09-21-2011, 09:52 AM
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Thanks very much for the feedback. I realize the photos themselves look over exposed - hard to take a good picture in the dark with an iPhone - but the "blobs" of light that are visible in the pictures are really there - this is not just the result of the photo being over-exposed. Does this clarify things?

I was going through some early posts here and read where people either didn't see the blooming or had to "construct" situations where it would become visible, i.e. sitting way off-axis, black screen/white menus, etc. That's why I'm wondering if my panel is just a LOT worse than others, rather than my being more sensitive to the issue. Any thoughts on this possibility? Mine was built in January, 2011...

The other thing I can't understand is why I seem to be the only person here who is frustrated by the REDS that this TV displays and why virtually no one has replied to these concerns. As I've mentioned several times, the reds on the HX are more orange/brown/mustard-colored, rather than, say, cherry-red. Yesterday I was a Fry's in California and saw a row of hi-end TVs - mostly Sony's - including the 52HX909, all showing "Despicable Me" on Blu-ray, and there was a scene where you see a red couch. On every screen the couch was more or less red and on the HX909 it was ORANGE! I would think that with so many people here with extremely high standards, they would be barking about this but I seem to be the only one even mentioning it. Any thoughts?

Speaking of the REDS issue, my original understanding is that this is NOT something that can be corrected by doing a professional calibration. I then read a post that made me think that if the hidden settings are altered by a professional calibration person, they could possibly adjust how reds are displayed (please see attached image). I've tweaked hue and white balance settings and cannot, by myself, gets the reds to be more "red". I could really use some solid feedback on this.

Again, I really do appreciate any and all replies.
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post #2757 of 2897 Old 09-22-2011, 01:33 PM
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Just a question to everyone with a HX909:

Did you guys buy an extended warranty?

If so which one? (I currently am looking at the SonyStyle one, but please help me on this decision!)
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post #2758 of 2897 Old 09-22-2011, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsulmeyer View Post

Thanks very much for the feedback. I realize the photos themselves look over exposed - hard to take a good picture in the dark with an iPhone - but the "blobs" of light that are visible in the pictures are really there - this is not just the result of the photo being over-exposed. Does this clarify things?

The local dimming is visible as soon as you go off-axis, this is normal. You do not have to be at very wide angles for it to happen.

Make sure that you do not have the black corrector or adv. contrast enhancer options enabled, and you have brightness set correctly, as those can exacerbate the problem. (turning areas that shouldn't be completely black off)

If the visibility of the zones off-axis viewing is too distracting (in some ways, I would say that it's more distracting than regular LCD off-axis viewing, even though the image is higher contrast) I would suggest turning down LED dynamic control to low, running in game mode, or disabling it entirely.

Make sure that the contrast setting is at least 80, and that you have the backlight set correctly. You should be able to look at a full white screen comfortably with the auto light limiter turned off. What often works well is to turn the backlight completely down, watch maybe half an hour of content with this dim picture, and turn it up notch-by-notch until a full white screen starts looking white again rather than a dull grey. Most people find this is at least a couple of notches lower than their previous setting.

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Originally Posted by jsulmeyer View Post

I was going through some early posts here and read where people either didn't see the blooming or had to "construct" situations where it would become visible, i.e. sitting way off-axis, black screen/white menus, etc.

In most content, the local dimming is not visible when watching a film on-axis with the exception of things like end credits.

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Originally Posted by jsulmeyer View Post

The other thing I can't understand is why I seem to be the only person here who is frustrated by the REDS that this TV displays and why virtually no one has replied to these concerns. As I've mentioned several times, the reds on the HX are more orange/brown/mustard-colored, rather than, say, cherry-red. Yesterday I was a Fry's in California and saw a row of hi-end TVs - mostly Sony's - including the 52HX909, all showing "Despicable Me" on Blu-ray, and there was a scene where you see a red couch. On every screen the couch was more or less red and on the HX909 it was ORANGE! I would think that with so many people here with extremely high standards, they would be barking about this but I seem to be the only one even mentioning it. Any thoughts?

It's true, the reds are somewhat shifted towards yellow, but not enough to turn them orange. Most uncalibrated LCDs, especially those with wider gamut capabilities tend to shift
reds towards crimson rather than where they should be, so the reds on the 909 would look more orange in comparison.

If you have a HTPC capable of running madVR with 3D LUTs enabled, I can help you get more accurate colour in general though. (including reds)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsulmeyer View Post

Speaking of the REDS issue, my original understanding is that this is NOT something that can be corrected by doing a professional calibration. I then read a post that made me think that if the hidden settings are altered by a professional calibration person, they could possibly adjust how reds are displayed (please see attached image). I've tweaked hue and white balance settings and cannot, by myself, gets the reds to be more "red". I could really use some solid feedback on this.

There is no CMS option with this display, so your only control is hue. This primarily affects the secondary colours and is best left alone in most cases.
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post #2759 of 2897 Old 09-22-2011, 10:39 PM
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I'm just starting to get acquaited with my 55" HX929, and while it has some minor imperfections showing standard video, overall, it is a technological marvel. I simply don't understand the complaints regarding blooming and so called creases. I noticed a little blooming of white letters in black background, but this does not take away from the viewing experience. Its like looking for perfection in an unperfect world. If you see and imperfection, just aske if it takes away from the viewing experience and then look at yourself in the mirror. On HD material, I'm extremely impressed. Its features and capabilities are "Jetson" like. And, its beautiful to look at. Its definitely in the XBR family; cutting edge features and design.
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post #2760 of 2897 Old 09-23-2011, 12:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby View Post

I'm just starting to get acquaited with my 55" HX929, and while it has some minor imperfections showing standard video, overall, it is a technological marvel. I simply don't understand the complaints regarding blooming and so called creases. I noticed a little blooming of white letters in black background, but this does not take away from the viewing experience. Its like looking for perfection in an unperfect world. If you see and imperfection, just aske if it takes away from the viewing experience and then look at yourself in the mirror. On HD material, I'm extremely impressed. Its features and capabilities are "Jetson" like. And, its beautiful to look at. Its definitely in the XBR family; cutting edge features and design.

Totally agree, my last 929 showed the crease even from straight on during regular content, thats why i couldnt stand it.

Luckily my new one doesnt have that defect from straight on, and of course like any LCD the picture just shows many imperfections from off angle such as blooming and color fade. I dont care about that as pretty much every LCD has imperfections from off axis, especially those with local dimming so this is no exception. Straight on is what counts as thats how i usually view it, and IMO from that position this set produces an absolutely perfect picture. I literally cannot find one fault with it as everything is stellar from this angle from colors, overall contrast, motion and sharpness.

Just curious, what is the build date on your set?
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