Anyone know when Vizio's 72" LED is supposed to be released?! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey,

I know Vizio had a press release back in January stating that their new 72" LED for 2010 was coming out and would be available in August 2010.

Well it is almost October and it still is not available - not much left of 2010, lol...

Anyone know anything?

Thanks as always!


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post #2 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 07:33 PM
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It was canceled.
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post #3 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theblackkeys View Post

It was canceled.

What?!

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post #4 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I can find nothing on the net that states that it was cancelled....


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post #5 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

I can find nothing on the net that states that it was cancelled....


Thats because Vizio never officialy anounced the cancellation of the 72 incher,,, they just figured they would put their heads in the sand and pretend they never showed it off at CES with a price and release date.

Vizio really screwed alot of people with the promis of the never released 72 incher,,,,, for my part, if I had known Vizio cancelled the 72" I would have gone with my plan of buying the Sharp 65" 77 series (could have got one for around 2K when they first came out),,, by the time I found out Vizio was not coming out with the 72 incher, Sharp had quit making a 65 incher, and the prices I have found on some of the few remaining Sharp 65 inchers is around 3K,,,,,, $1,000.00 more than what I could have gotten one for,,,, thanks Vizio.

It would seem Vizio had no idea how many people were waiting and holding out for the 72 incher,,,,,, and it would also seem Vizio could care less about their loyal customers when they cancelled it and have avoided the whole subject ever since.

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post #6 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, thanks...

That right there is enough for me to write them off for good...

Back to my Panasonics...

Thanks!


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post #7 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 09:55 PM
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No real demand for a set that size as I keep telling people here
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post #8 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

No real demand for a set that size as I keep telling people here

That is TOTALLY not true...

Panasonic makes the largest TVs right now at 65"...

They can NOT keep the 65" TVs in stock - they are back-ordered by weeks, in some cases, months...

As stated above people are waiting for these 72" to come out...

LG has an active waiting crowd for their 72" to be released...

72", in my opinion, and the opinion of MANY others, is the "perfect" large size TV...


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post #9 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

That is TOTALLY not true...

Panasonic makes the largest TVs right now at 65"...

They can NOT keep the 65" TVs in stock - they are back-ordered by weeks, in some cases, months...

As stated above people are waiting for these 72" to come out...

LG has an active waiting crowd for their 72" to be released...

72", in my opinion, and the opinion of MANY others, is the "perfect" large size TV...


The world-wide demand for monster TVs is totally insignificant. It's rounding error against total sales of HD TVs. Being on back order means nothing. Could be parts availability or low production priority. The average family doesn't want nor has the room for a TV that would dominate a room. Just because a few people on a video site thinks it's important doesn't mean it's a priority or even desirable.
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post #10 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 10:40 PM
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"Panasonic makes the largest TVs right now at 65"...'

And Panasonic is the sole mainstream TV maker on earth with a current model at 65 inches that's mainstream priced -- i.e. consistent with the pricing of smaller sets. It's pretty clear that the market size is small at that size, and while pricing matters, the lower-end Panasonic 65 inch is just north of $2k online, and sub $3k at retail. So I tend to agree that there is just not much market for TVs that big.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #11 of 59 Old 09-26-2010, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"Panasonic makes the largest TVs right now at 65"...'

And Panasonic is the sole mainstream TV maker on earth with a current model at 65 inches that's mainstream priced -- i.e. consistent with the pricing of smaller sets. It's pretty clear that the market size is small at that size, and while pricing matters, the lower-end Panasonic 65 inch is just north of $2k online, and sub $3k at retail. So I tend to agree that there is just not much market for TVs that big.

Not sure what you are talking about but the 65" S2, a great TV, is UNDER $2,000 at every retailer including Best Buy...

There is just as big a market for a 72" TV as there is for a 63" Samsung or 65" Panasonic...

LG is rolling out its 72" soon, and there are a lot of people waiting for it - just like there were this 72" Vizio...

I would agree that 72" is probably the limit though...

Sony made a 72" that cost $17,000...

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post #12 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

No real demand for a set that size as I keep telling people here

There is a very large demand for bigger sized panels even though you have been tring to convince people here there is not.

Question: If "as you have been claiming for a very long time" there is no demand for larger panels,,, how come you have to keep telling people there is no demand for larger panels ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

That is TOTALLY not true...

Panasonic makes the largest TVs right now at 65"...

They can NOT keep the 65" TVs in stock - they are back-ordered by weeks, in some cases, months...

As stated above people are waiting for these 72" to come out...

LG has an active waiting crowd for their 72" to be released...

72", in my opinion, and the opinion of MANY others, is the "perfect" large size TV...


You are 100% correct Pologuy,,,,, Omelet seems to be on a mission to try and talk people out of what they want, he will argue against every fact that shows interest in larger panels and myself and many others here have had the same debate with him more than a few times.

And if you ask Omelet a question he has no answer for that proves the interest in larger panels he wont answer the question and just ignors it.

As example:
In my last debate with "Omelet" I asked him this question.

If a customer walks into a A/V store and see's two identical panels sitting side by side, one is a 55" and one is a 65", they are both the same exact price and have the same exact picture, which panel are the majority of customers going to purchase,, the 55 incher or the 65 incher ?

As I recall I never could get an answer from "Omelet" on that one, and I did ask him that question more than a few times.

Cheers
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post #13 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyo View Post

There is a very large demand for bigger sized panels even though you have been tring to convince people here there is not.

Question: If "as you have been claiming for a very long time" there is no demand for larger panels,,, how come you have to keep telling people there is no demand for larger panels ?



You are 100% correct Pologuy,,,,, Omelet seems to be on a mission to try and talk people out of what they want, he will argue against every fact that shows interest in larger panels and myself and many others here have had the same debate with him more than a few times.

And if you ask Omelet a question he has no answer for that proves the interest in larger panels he wont answer the question and just ignors it.

As example:
In my last debate with "Omelet" I asked him this question.

If a customer walks into a A/V store and see's two identical panels sitting side by side, one is a 55" and one is a 65", they are both the same exact price and have the same exact picture, which panel are the majority of customers going to purchase,, the 55 incher or the 65 incher ?

As I recall I never could get an answer from "Omelet" on that one, and I did ask him that question more than a few times.

Cheers
Davyo

Typical Davyo post where he personalizes and insults the poster instead of acting like a gentleman.

Fact is the market share for 65" and greater TVs of all forms is a fraction of 1%. That speaks for itself.
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post #14 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Typical Davyo post where he personalizes and insults the poster instead of acting like a gentleman.

Fact is the market share for 65" and greater TVs of all forms is a fraction of 1%. That speaks for itself.

Really !!!,,,, I dont see any insults at all in my post.

As far as your "market share" comment, thats the same stuff you have used before, along with many other arguments that you use.

But you still avoid questions that would distroy your claim that no one wants bigger panels.

Question A: Two exact same panels, one is 55", one is 65", the same picture and the same price,,,,, which panel are the MAJORITY of people going to purchase and walk out the door with,,, the 55 incher or the 65 incher ????

Question B: If there is no interest in larger panels how come you have to keep telling people there is no interest in larger panels ????

Question A, I have asked you more than a few time's over the last year or more and have never got an answer from you.

I guess your un-willing'ness to answer question A,,, speaks for itself.

Cheers
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post #15 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyo View Post

Really !!!,,,, I dont see any insults at all in my post.

As far as your "market share" comment, thats the same stuff you have used before, along with many other arguments that you use.

But you still avoid questions that would distroy your claim that no one wants bigger panels.

Question A: Two exact same panels, one is 55", one is 65", the same picture and the same price,,,,, which panel are the MAJORITY of people going to purchase and walk out the door with,,, the 55 incher or the 65 incher ????

Question B: If there is no interest in larger panels how come you have to keep telling people there is no interest in larger panels ????

Question A, I have asked you more than a few time's over the last year or more and have never got an answer from you.

I guess your un-willing'ness to answer question A,,, speaks for itself.

Cheers
Davyo

Your questions are inane, especially B. The real answer and proof is that there are 70"+ alternatives and they have virtually no market share. Prove there is huge demand as you claim
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post #16 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Your questions are inane, especially B. The real answer and proof is that there are 70"+ alternatives and they have virtually no market share. Prove there is huge demand as you claim

As always, you wont answer question A, over the last year or more I have asked you the same question perhaps a dozen times and you refuse to answer it every time your asked.

But then again, your refusal to answer the question has kind of answered the question for you, and everyone else reading this,, myself included.

You cant and wont answer the same question asked of you over and over again because we all know the answer and that answer would kill all of your arguements that people dont want a bigger than 50" panel (as I recall, 50 inches is the max size you claimed people want).

If anything, it is entertaining in some wierd way, asking such a simple question from you that requires a very simple answer and never getting that answer to the question.

You can talk about "market share" all you want, and try to change the subject to not answer and avoid the asked question,,, dont worry, we all know the answer to my question,,, and so do you.

Cheers
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post #17 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 01:40 PM
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Because it's a stupid question so why answer it. It makes no sense and proves nothing. Ok, I wouldn't choose the larger TV because I don't have the room for it. There you go
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post #18 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Because it's a stupid question so why answer it. It makes no sense and proves nothing. Ok, I wouldn't choose the larger TV because I don't have the room for it. There you go

Ohh ma gosh,,,, Im truly LOL'ing,,,, its always entertaining debating with you Omelet !!!!!

And as always you didnt answer the question,,, the question was not and has never been which size would you pick,,,, we already have known the answer to that one.

And its not a stupid question at all,,,, your answer (and I think most of us already know the true answer) would distroy your whole arguement that most people want smaller TV's.

The question has always been,,,,, and still is:

Same TV, same brand, same picture quality, one is 55", one is 65", they both cost the exact same price,,,, which TV are the marjority of people going to purchase ?,,, (not you,, but the majority of people) ?????????????

Cheers
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post #19 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

Not sure what you are talking about but the 65" S2, a great TV, is UNDER $2,000 at every retailer including Best Buy...

There is just as big a market for a 72" TV as there is for a 63" Samsung or 65" Panasonic...

LG is rolling out its 72" soon, and there are a lot of people waiting for it - just like there were this 72" Vizio...

I would agree that 72" is probably the limit though...

Sony made a 72" that cost $17,000...

Yeah, I made no effort to check S2 pricing at the time. It is cheaper than it was. It is, in fact, a bargain. And yet they don't really sell many despite that good deal.

AVSers gigantically overestimate the market for gigantic TVs. It's a small market because people don't have the space / don't want to dedicate to the space to gigantic TVs.

There is no hard limit, but it's safe to say that regardless of price 65-inch TVs won't be the largest sellers, simply because a lot of people don't want them.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #20 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 03:14 PM
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AFAIK the 72" LG and the 72" Vizio panels were being built in a new 4-5 billion $ Fab plant. Vizio did state that the new panels were not meeting their quality standards and apparentlly the yield of quality panels from the Fab are is low that LG will ony be offering the panel to the Japanese market.
Lets hope that they can improve the yield of qualtiy panels next year.
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post #21 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

There is no hard limit, but it's safe to say that regardless of price 65-inch TVs won't be the largest sellers, simply because a lot of people don't want them.

Agreed...that being said the 65S2 is currently 37th over all at Amazon out of all the displays they sell. Thats higher than I though it would have been.
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post #22 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 07:43 PM
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Omelets arguments flys in the face of an entire RPTV Market that were predominantly large sized for a few decades - the Market is still there if the price is right - they just can't come with the fat ass of RPTV any longer.

Panasonic has proven him wrong and you can bet your ass that if they seriously entered LCD market they'd build a big ass panel also - but they've never made that kind of committment to LCD since they dominate the plasma market.

Samsung has been building that 63" for at least 5 years and Vizio is going to bring that 65" to market and they'll rule 65" when they do IMO and prove Omelet wrong again while we whine over the 72" demise if you place that badass new Vizio 55" on a 65" for at or under $3K with 3D there'll be a waiting list I'll bet ya!

Important thing is for LG to make the 72" work for them and then they OEM the glass at a later date to Vizio as the groundwork is there in a larger tier series.

I agree with DAVYO in that you place a consumer in front of a 55" vs a 65" > the vast majority of consumers would go larger if the price were reasonable and Panasonic has done that in plasma - who ever thought you could get a 65" plasma for $2K that would blow away the $20K+ Panny Onyx plasma of yesteryear - they said the same thing as Omelet back when this plasma was at these prices and history has proven that argument wrong.

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post #23 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 08:09 PM
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Show me the sales numbers of 65"+ TVs that support your premise. Rounding error against the market. The wishes of the few on an enthusiasts forum isn't being considered by the manufactures. They are in this to sell volume.

Panny wants no part of competing seriously in the LCD market, so that talk is speculation.
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post #24 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 08:11 PM
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Of course the % of total sales for the very biggest sets will be very small. More interesting data on the demand for large sets would be the year to year change in sales of such sets. Anyone have such info? Increasing sales due to dropping prices would indicate a latent demand.

jeff
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post #25 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 08:53 PM
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I think there is a fairly large number of people that would like 72" to be an options, and man would spring for it. I know it would have been in the equation when I was making my purchasing decision last week.

But, what do I know? I am just a consumer.

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post #26 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

Omelets arguments flys in the face of an entire RPTV Market that were predominantly large sized for a few decades - the Market is still there if the price is right - they just can't come with the fat ass of RPTV any longer.

Panasonic has proven him wrong and you can bet your ass that if they seriously entered LCD market they'd build a big ass panel also - but they've never made that kind of committment to LCD since they dominate the plasma market.

Samsung has been building that 63" for at least 5 years and Vizio is going to bring that 65" to market and they'll rule 65" when they do IMO and prove Omelet wrong again while we whine over the 72" demise if you place that badass new Vizio 55" on a 65" for at or under $3K with 3D there'll be a waiting list I'll bet ya!

Important thing is for LG to make the 72" work for them and then they OEM the glass at a later date to Vizio as the groundwork is there in a larger tier series.

I agree with DAVYO in that you place a consumer in front of a 55" vs a 65" > the vast majority of consumers would go larger if the price were reasonable and Panasonic has done that in plasma - who ever thought you could get a 65" plasma for $2K that would blow away the $20K+ Panny Onyx plasma of yesteryear - they said the same thing as Omelet back when this plasma was at these prices and history has proven that argument wrong.

Hey Westa,,, I already made the argument to Omelet about big screen RPTV's and the fact that they were very popular, in spite of the fact they weighed a few hundred pounds and took up a lot of space a very large number of people bought them and stores had tons of them on display and in stock,,, back in the 80's everyone had a big screen RPTV,,, more people had big screen's than waterbeds !!!!

I forget what Omelets exact answer was to that point when I made it, but as I recall he tried to claim big screen TV's were never very popular and didnt sell well.
Your fighting an up-hill battle Westa tring to debate Omelet on his opinion, he will never admit he is wrong,,,,,, just like he NEVER answers that same one simple question I ask him everytime our paths cross here on AVS.

Cheers
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post #27 of 59 Old 09-27-2010, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjp View Post

Of course the % of total sales for the very biggest sets will be very small. More interesting data on the demand for large sets would be the year to year change in sales of such sets. Anyone have such info? Increasing sales due to dropping prices would indicate a latent demand.

jeff

If 25 million HDTVs are sold and 25,000 are 70"+ then a year-to-year change is still meaningless and either number is rounding error.

If there is such a huge demand as some here claim then the companies would be making them, but there isn't such demand. now is there? Where are they?
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post #28 of 59 Old 09-28-2010, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

If 25 million HDTVs are sold and 25,000 are 70"+ then a year-to-year change is still meaningless and either number is rounding error.

If there is such a huge demand as some here claim then the companies would be making them, but there isn't such demand. now is there? Where are they?

A couple of things. First, do we even know what percentage of sets are 60"+? Your example here would be 0.1%. If it was actually say 1%, we'd be talking about 250,000 sets. I'm asking questions and you're making proclamations without data.

Second, you continue to ignore the fact that sales, of anything, are tied to price. If the price of the existing 60"+ sets make them prohibitively expensive for most people, of course the sales are low. Little demand for $3,000+ televisions. If tomorrow's 60" sets are priced like today's 50" sets, how does the demand change? By your logic, there wasn't any demand for 42" plasmas back when they cost $7,000. Of course we know there's tremendous demand, just not at that price.

The consumer electronics industry is full of products that started out very expensive with small sales, which grew as sales dropped. Cell phones, computers, etc. Why would TVs be any different?

Last, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony and LG all make 60" and over sets. The LCD companies have, just in the past couple of years, increased the sizes of their volume sets from 46" --> 52" --> 55". And the prices continue to drop.

All of the trends points to bigger sets becoming more affordable. That leads me to believe the demand for them will grow.

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post #29 of 59 Old 09-28-2010, 12:31 PM
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If I had to take an educated guess (and yes it's educated), the 60-inch-and-up market share is around 1% of the total. And while those are the most-expensive sets, price is only part of the reason.

Theoretical demand -- that's the demand as display in the "curve" where you can see quantity rising with price falling -- is lower for every since starting around 32 inches and moving up.

In other words, every larger TV has less demand irrespective of price. If one does not believe this, one is wrong. This is not some arguable proposition, so if you wish to argue it (not accusing anyone of so doing) you will do so upon deaf ears.

But understanding that there is more quantity to be sold at lower prices doesn't mean you will ever see those lower prices. First of all, it makes no sense for TV manufacturers to ever price all TVs below $1000. They've gotten people to pay from $200-10,000. Sure, the $10,000 market is tiny and uninteresting to most big CE companies, but I doubt the $3000 is uninteresting. In fact, I suspect they love its margins more than just about anything.

Second of all, because they want their cheapest TVs to sell for $200 (or whatever the floor is) and want to price size and performance higher and higher, no one has an incentive to squeeze the size-price curve down to the point where $100 buys you 10 diagonal inches.

Third of all, LCD production is getting awfully mature and the vast majority of the learning-curve effects have been wrung out of it. There is unlikely to be significantly lower costs of production over the next 5 year as there were over the previous 10 years. This is also inarguable because learning-curve effects are well understood; new technologies do not violate them; and Moore's Law type effects don't occur on things where the physical size is inherently fixed. And LCDs are inherently fixed size; a 60-inch TV has 60 inches of glass, measured diagonally.

Now, all that said, 60-inch LCDs can get cheaper than the $2,000 the cheapest ones sell for now. And they will. And when they do more will be sold. This can be seen by structuring a plausible demand curve and someone with 5 years of real industry data could actually do a remarkable job of telling you how many more will be sold at $1,500 than at $2,000.

What's harder for us to glean is whether selling more at $1,500 makes the manufacturer more money than selling fewer at $2,000. That's what's sometimes called income elasticity of demand and while someone at Samsung and LG is probably able to tell you what they think about that for, say, 2013, it really dictates pricing almost as much as temporary gluts in panel supply.

In fact, because Samsung and LG make so much of the high-end glass used in LCD TVs and Chi Mei and AUO make so much less of what any mainstream TVs in North America use, the Korean giants can actually determine how much of the bigger glass panels to make depending on where they want the pricing curve to be next year and the year after.

The CE market is fairly non-aggressive when it comes to pricing. Generally people don't go around cutting prices to try to take share from one another (I'm talking LG, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, et al. here... not Insignia) because that's not really a viable profit strategy.

Vizio was a wild card, but I think a lot of people saw their aggressive pricing and assumed they were really upsetting the apple cart. Instead, they were smart guys who understood that by running at lower margins in the short run, they could semi-permanently establish a brand, retail presence, and market share that they could maintain when they stopped doing much overly aggressive price leading.

Vizio today is still priced below the majors because, well, they don't have decades of brand equity and "halo products" to command Sony-style pricing. But you don't see Vizio dictating pricing trends. Instead, they are beholden to panel suppliers lowering prices and allowing Vizio to reset their prices to maintain whatever internal margin targets are out there.

When Vizio buys good panels, they can make TVs that are probably almost (or actually) the equals of major brands. If they buy last-generation Chi Mei panels, they are not going to produce sets in league with Samsung 8000-series TVs. Not even close.

Anyway, the upshot (I'm tired of typing) is that over time we'll see the mix shift somewhat higher, but living rooms are fixed in size, wives don't generally love gigantic TVs, not all men want gigantic TVs, and none of this is affected by the price of gigantic TVs.

Fact is, some of us want gigantic TVs and we have virtually no choices. Let's hope Vizio and LG give us one next year.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #30 of 59 Old 09-28-2010, 01:07 PM
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And then there are the people who have been enjoying 100 inch images for over 10 years using a front projector. 1080P front projectors are now available for less than $1,000. Man caves have become an accepted part of the male psyche. Those with a dark enough space can now get 100 inches of 1080P goodness for a fraction of what it was just a few years ago.

I visited a guy who had black drapes made to enclose the entire living room of his modestly sized apartment.

For normal use the drapes could be pulled back. Of course those with a basement don't have to make this kind of investment in black drapes. But, if you own a house, black drapes would probably pay for themselves in a few years.

There is no doubt that plasma or LCD greater than 65 inches will eventually appear, and it will be well before an affordable 55 inch OLED.
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