60hz and 5:5 pulldown - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm interested in getting a LG LCD HDTV sometime in the near future.
My choices so far are:
LG 42LD450 42-Inch 1080p 60 Hz LCD HDTV
LG 42LD520 42-Inch 1080p 120Hz LCD HDTV

Both of these TV's have & do the features below...

*24p Real Cinema (5:5/2:2 Pulldown)
*3:2 Pulldown
*HDMI: 60p/30p/24p

My question is...
According to a LG educational video explaining the benefits of Real Cinema, they made it seem like you need 120Hz to have true 5:5 Pulldown.
Is this true?

The LG website shows that 24p Real Cinema is available on most TVs regardless of their refresh rate.


The video link is below:

(pause at 1:52)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_Uuj-NONo

More info...
I have no problem with 60Hz TVs.
I just wanna make sure that my next HDTV has true 1080P/24P (Real Cinema).
You know able to correctly display 24 fps. thats all.
i plan on connecting my PS3 Slim on one of these TVs.

Thanks for reading....
Please clear this up for me.
Explain in detail.
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post #2 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDinside View Post

I'm interested in getting a LG LCD HDTV sometime in the near future.
My choices so far are:
LG 42LD450 42-Inch 1080p 60 Hz LCD HDTV
LG 42LD520 42-Inch 1080p 120Hz LCD HDTV

Both of these TV's have & do the features below...

*24p Real Cinema (5:5/2:2 Pulldown)
*3:2 Pulldown
*HDMI: 60p/30p/24p

My question is...
According to a LG educational video explaining the benefits of Real Cinema, they made it seem like you need 120Hz to have true 5:5 Pulldown.
Is this true?

The TV has to be able to refresh at 120Hz, but it doesn't have to have a 120Hz motion interpolation/enhancement feature.

"120Hz" in TV marketing typically means the latter, though of course to have 120Hz motion enhancement the panel has to be able to refresh as such. The former is not well documented by TV makers.

But it is possible to have a TV without a motion enhancer feature that can still refresh "internally" at 120Hz, have 24p input capability and do a proper 5:5 on it. This would still be referred to as a "60Hz" TV in marketing.

Furthermore TVs that have 120Hz motion enhancers don't necessarily do a 5:5 pulldown either!

So really you could have one "60Hz" TV that does 24p input and 5:5, while another TV with "120Hz" and accepts 24p input might not do 5:5.
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post #3 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for clearing that up.
anybody else wanna add their input?
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post #4 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I found this comment in another thread....
is all that info facts?

"People are confusing a 120Hz refresh rate and dejudder processing (AMP, TruMotion, MotionFlow). You can't turn 120Hz on or off. The 120Hz TV will ALWAYS display at that refresh rate. You can disable dejudder processing and absolutely do not want it turned on for gaming since it will introduce lag.

The main benefit of 120Hz is for movies. A 120Hz TV does not have to perform 2:3 pulldown for movies. Instead, it can display 24 frames per second as 5:5. Standard 30Hz material will be 4:4, while 60Hz material will be 2:2."
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post #5 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 04:15 PM
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No 60Hz TV can do 5:5 pulldown since 60 is not disable by 24. So a 60hz TV can only inmplemtent "true cinema" using 3:2 pulldown. A 120 Hz TV can do 5:5 pulldown since 120/24 = 5.
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post #6 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks ES_Revenge & walford.

But how come LG says these TVs can do what they call "24p Real Cinema" aka (5:5/2:2 Pulldown) on TVs that is are 60Hz.
I know it can do 3:2 Pulldown too because its on the specs.
But it also specify that it can do 5:5???

Here's are the links to their specs:

http://www.lg.com/us/tv-audio-video/...tv-42LD450.jsp

http://www.lg.com/us/tv-audio-video/...tv-47LD450.jsp

Both TVs are 60Hz & supposedly can do 5:5 according to the manufacturer website.

Deceptive advertising??
Misleading specs??


Thanks
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post #7 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 06:24 PM
 
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My guess is a misprint (or marketing fabrication). Most likely does 2:2 at 48 Hz like Sharp.
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post #8 of 12 Old 10-01-2010, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDinside View Post

Thanks ES_Revenge & walford.

But how come LG says these TVs can do what they call "24p Real Cinema" aka (5:5/2:2 Pulldown) on TVs that is are 60Hz.

In that case the TVs are able to refresh the panel at 120Hz, the TV just doesn't have a 120Hz motion enhancer feature (a useless feature IMO anyway because it just makes things look stupid--"soap opera effect").

So they are 120Hz TVs if they are doing 5:5 but they are marketed as 60Hz because they didn't include a motion interpolation feature. The text you quoted in your third post is exactly what I meant in my post. Motion interpolation/enhancer features are not the same thing as a panel that actually refreshes at 120Hz.

Let's start with the fact that consumer TVs all only accept up to 60Hz on their inputs. Many TVs have 24Hz (or 23.9xx if you prefer) input capability as well. But if the screen actually refreshed that slow you would notice flicker. So no screen actually refreshes at 24Hz. By the same token just because you can only feed up to a 60Hz input doesn't mean the panel is necessarily refreshing at 60Hz either. So TVs can run "internally" at some other refresh rate, one that is usually not published. What is published is simply the motion enhancer features which some sets have. This is what determines the "hertz rating" of a TV in the consumer marketplace. That rating however is not necessarily what the TV refreshes at.

If you do have a "120Hz" or "240Hz" enhancer on the TV, then you know the panel has to be able to refresh at least that fast, otherwise the feature would be useless (well I think it is anyway but I mean ineffective in this context). However, just because the panel refreshes at 120Hz or more does not mean you also get a 5:5 on a 1080p24 signal. That should be the case but there are examples where some manufacturers/models have not done this.

So...

Assuming that you can input a 24Hz signal (if you couldn't this is all moot because there's no way you'd be able to get 5:5 then)...

"120Hz" means you have a panel that is capable of refreshing at least up to 120Hz. It says nothing about 5:5 pulldown. It might do this, or it might not.

"60Hz" (or the lack of mention of 120Hz or 240Hz) means you have a TV that is capable of refreshing at least that fast; but you don't know if it can/is refreshing faster than that. The set may be capable of refreshing at 120Hz+ despite the fact that there is no motion enhancer for 120Hz. Again though this says nothing about whether it can do 5:5 or not.

If you know for sure the set does 5:5, then you know the panel is refreshing at 120Hz. This is regardless of, and separate from, the presence of a "120Hz" or "240Hz" mode on the TV (motion enhancer).

This is the best of my understanding from everything I've read online both here at AVS and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure I'm correct in the above, though it's possible I'm mistaken.

Hopefully that clears it up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDinside View Post

Deceptive advertising??
Misleading specs??

Thanks

It's not really deception, but it is misleading. Pretty much all TV manufacturers describe a TV's "hertz" by what motion enhancer it has. If it has none it's a "60Hz" TV, if it has that feature it will be "120Hz" or "240Hz" or whatever. That hertz figure is not necessarily the native or internal refresh rate of the TV/panel. As someone else pointed out above the panel may even operate at 48Hz when a 24Hz input is received (2:2), but nowhere will you ever see a TV sold as "48Hz". It's either sold as "60Hz" or "120Hz" or "240Hz" based entirely on what motion enhancer it has.
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post #9 of 12 Old 10-02-2010, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again ES_Revenge

anybody else wanna add their input?
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post #10 of 12 Old 10-02-2010, 07:05 AM
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I am considering an LG 32ld450 TV and was also confused by the 24P with 5:5 pull down capabilties.I have just bought a Panasonic bd-85 BD player. The manual states that the player will output 24p when selected, if the tv has that capabilty. Since LG states that it's ld450 has a 24p mode hopefully it will be able to do it. All info I was able to find states that 120hz refresh rate is needed. I think I may take a chance on that model.
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post #11 of 12 Old 10-02-2010, 11:10 AM
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There is one User's manual for many LD models which included the xx450 and xx520 models see to download:

http://www.lg.com/us/support/product...oduct-profile#

Page 112 says Tru-Motion is available for the 120Hz models.
Page 109 states the followiing for Real Cinema
"
Makes video clips recorded in film look more natural by eliminating judder
effect.
ꔛ DVD and Blu-ray movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps). With
LG Real Cinema, every frame is consistently processed 5 times in 1/24 of
a second producing 120 fps with TruMotion or 2 times in 1/24 of a second
producing 48 fps without TruMotion, thus totally eliminating the judder
effect. This function can also work when TruMotion is off.

"
So in interpred the spec line about Real Cinema to mean 5:5 pulldow for 120Hz and 2:2 for50 and 60Hz models and AFAIK you get flicker running 2:2 pulldown on a 60Hz set.
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post #12 of 12 Old 10-02-2010, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Clearce...

Let us know about that LG 32ld450 model in this thread.
I would like to know if you happy with it and if it does 24P with 5:5 pull down like LG said it would.
Thanks for your input.
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