Are there any true 120Hz LCD TVs? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 106 Old 01-29-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

oh, using TV as a computer monitor, this is such a novel concept, never heard of before I mean before Atari and Commodore came to market, about 50 years ago. TV is a monitor with tuner build in, wait a second my TV doesn't have tuner, is it still a TV? but frankly I never ever used tuner, always had a cable and always used it with computer so I'm confused now: what is TV anyway? And since I never used tuner and always used it with computer along with my DVD, DVR, Blue Ray, DVHS, etc I never use TV as TV?

You should be quite young if you've never used the tuner in a TV before

It is often assumed a TV is a monitor with a tuner. Actually the definition of a monitor (audio or video) is that it should output the source AS IT IS, together with the unique fps and resolution. But it's getting blurry now since some monitors do some processing as well, including video scaling, and the advent of hybrid display devices.

Ironically it may actually cost much more if you require more fidelity to source, with minimal processing, including calibration.

And consoles, from Atari to PS3, are designed with TV as output. Hence we would expect consoles to follow TV input spec.
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post #92 of 106 Old 01-29-2012, 10:17 AM
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Pete4,
What is the make/model of your TV? Are you sure it is a TV or is it a TV monitor?
All TVs since the spring of 2007 are required to have an ATSC tuner for OTA digital broadcasts.
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post #93 of 106 Old 01-29-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

oh, using TV as a computer monitor, this is such a novel concept, never heard of before I mean before Atari and Commodore came to market, about 50 years ago. TV is a monitor with tuner build in, wait a second my TV doesn't have tuner, is it still a TV? but frankly I never ever used tuner, always had a cable and always used it with computer so I'm confused now: what is TV anyway? And since I never used tuner and always used it with computer along with my DVD, DVR, Blue Ray, DVHS, etc I never use TV as TV?

I never said anything about not using a TV as a monitor. Once again this is why ppl r getting confused. Your talking about something I didn't even say. I talked about there is a difference between a TV, a monitor and graphics card. Thats it and yes monitors r different than tvs, they r NOT the same. Similar sure but they are not the same thing.
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post #94 of 106 Old 01-29-2012, 10:37 AM
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isnt the sony xbr-929 a true 120 hz display ?
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post #95 of 106 Old 01-29-2012, 04:40 PM
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Yes thr HX-929 repaints it screen 240 times per second but you can not send 120Hz or 240Hz content to it.
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post #96 of 106 Old 01-29-2012, 09:29 PM
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Originally you said and I quote: "There is no tv that supports 120hz directly cause there is no 120hz source." and this is not true since
1: people hook up TV to computers
2: computers can be a source of 120Hz signal, as a matter of fact for 3D games this would be required and it doesn't matter if the frames are packed into double frame and send at 60Hz or send individually at 120Hz, you're still sending 120FPS and it all becomes academic especially for digital transmission.
If 1 and 2 are true and it is then your statement is not.
This will become an issue in the future since there is talk in Hollywood to start making movies at higher frame rates, to improve quality and it is much easier now with digital recordings and computer generated graphics. And that means at some point in the future the TV's sold now will not be able to play 3D movies if they're recorded at anything higher than 24FPS in full 1080p HD. I remember the same type of arguments just 4-5 yrs ago when most 1080 TV could not accept 1080p@60Hz signals, only 1080i.
Now just about any new TV can accept 1080p@60Hz signal.
Since HDMI 1.3 specs define max data rate as 1080p@120Hz for about 6 yrs now it would be nice if hardware finally catch up to specs and make TV more future proof and actually forget about the future I could use it now to play 3D games in full 1080p glory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

I never said anything about not using a TV as a monitor. Once again this is why ppl r getting confused. Your talking about something I didn't even say. I talked about there is a difference between a TV, a monitor and graphics card. Thats it and yes monitors r different than tvs, they r NOT the same. Similar sure but they are not the same thing.

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post #97 of 106 Old 01-30-2012, 09:43 AM
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I see nothing in the HDMI specs about 120Hz support or 3D support. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.3

It is true that Nvidia supports 720p/120 frame sequential 3D with it's 3D Vision product when used with displays such as DLP systems other then RP models that have DLP Link support.
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post #98 of 106 Old 01-30-2012, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

A BR 3D disk does not require twice the capacity of a BR 2D disk. The following link states that it requires only 50% more capacity.

http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/

That's for compressed storage on a disc. My BD player needs to decode it into an uncompressed signal that is then transferred over the wire. In this case, frame-packed mode uses double-height frames with 45 pixels of buffer (1080 + 1080 + 45 in height, 1920 in width). Hence, double the bandwidth. Note: bandwidth != storage.

3D Standardization Efforts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia View Post

HDMI version 1.4, released in June 2009, defines a number of 3D transmission formats. The format "Frame Packing" (left and right image packed into one video frame with twice the normal bandwidth) is mandatory for HDMI 1.4 3D devices

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Yes thr HX-929 repaints it screen 120 times per second but you can not send 120Hz content to it.

The HX929 is claimed to use a 240Hz panel, and can strobe the backlight to mimic higher (Motionflow 480/960).
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post #99 of 106 Old 01-30-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote from Wiki : The HDMI specification defines the protocols, signals, electrical interfaces and mechanical requirements of the standard.[42] The maximum pixel clock rate for HDMI 1.0 was 165 MHz, which was sufficient to support 1080p and WUXGA (1920×1200) at 60 Hz. HDMI 1.3 increased that to 340 MHz, which allows for higher resolution (such as WQXGA, 2560×1600) across a single digital link.
End of quote.
If 165MHz can support 1920x1200@60Hz, then 1.3 can support more than double that at 340MHz, which would be a little more than 1080p @120Hz.
The signal is digital so it's continuous data stream, if you decode it as 1920x1080@120Hz or 1920x2160@60Hz, or any other combination of screen size x refresh rate doesn't really mater as long as you are capable to send enough bytes and 10Gb max data rate defined under HDMI1.3 is just enough plus sound, headers and overhead.
or you can calculate yourself 1.3 has max data rate of 10Gb.
1920*1080*120*3*10 = 7.6Gb


Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

I see nothing in the HDMI specs about 120Hz support or 3D support. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.3

It is true that Nvidia supports 720p/120 frame sequential 3D with it's 3D Vision product when used with displays such as DLP systems other then RP models that have DLP Link support.

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post #100 of 106 Old 01-31-2012, 08:48 AM
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I don't consider HDMI a continuous data stream since it is a hasndshaking protocol and the sender of a content buffer waits for an acknowledge before sending the next buffer.
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post #101 of 106 Old 01-31-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

Originally you said and I quote: "There is no tv that supports 120hz directly cause there is no 120hz source." and this is not true since
1: people hook up TV to computers
2: computers can be a source of 120Hz signal, as a matter of fact for 3D games this would be required and it doesn't matter if the frames are packed into double frame and send at 60Hz or send individually at 120Hz, you're still sending 120FPS and it all becomes academic especially for digital transmission.
If 1 and 2 are true and it is then your statement is not.
This will become an issue in the future since there is talk in Hollywood to start making movies at higher frame rates, to improve quality and it is much easier now with digital recordings and computer generated graphics. And that means at some point in the future the TV's sold now will not be able to play 3D movies if they're recorded at anything higher than 24FPS in full 1080p HD. I remember the same type of arguments just 4-5 yrs ago when most 1080 TV could not accept 1080p@60Hz signals, only 1080i.
Now just about any new TV can accept 1080p@60Hz signal.
Since HDMI 1.3 specs define max data rate as 1080p@120Hz for about 6 yrs now it would be nice if hardware finally catch up to specs and make TV more future proof and actually forget about the future I could use it now to play 3D games in full 1080p glory.

Again I was not referring to computer but TV since this is a TV thread. As for the source not being 120hz, again was referring a TV signal from a satellite, box, bluray player or coxial cable was not referring to anything PC as that is completely different. So my fault for not explaining things more in depth.
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post #102 of 106 Old 01-31-2012, 01:45 PM
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OK, what are you saying? you still don't believe HDMI supports 1080p@120Hz
Here is official HDMI website link
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx
Here is the quote from their website:
Q. What is the difference between a Standard HDMI cable and a High-Speed HDMI cable?
Recently, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that cables would be tested as Standard or High-Speed cables.
Standard (or category 1) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal.
High Speed (or category 2) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz or up to 10.2Gbps, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates from the Source. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600).
end of quote.

Discussing HDMI handshaking protocols is out of topic, me not go there, but as the website said, you can do whatever you want with the signal (increase color depth, increase FPS, or resolution) as long as you stay bellow 10.2 Gb and that's good for about 120Hz @1080 and overhead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

I don't consider HDMI a continuous data stream since it is a hasndshaking protocol and the sender of a content buffer waits for an acknowledge before sending the next buffer.

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post #103 of 106 Old 01-31-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

Discussing HDMI handshaking protocols is out of topic, me not go there, but as the website said, you can do whatever you want with the signal (increase color depth, increase FPS, or resolution) as long as you stay bellow 10.2 Gb and that's good for about 120Hz @1080 and overhead.

I agree with you, I never said it would not. However untill 1080p/120, 1920x2025/24 packed frame or some other format that will permit 1080p/60 for each eye is part of the next ATSC specification set I don't think we will see it available in many units. AFAIK this is one of the goals of the next ATSC specification.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html
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post #104 of 106 Old 01-31-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

Originally you said and I quote: "There is no tv that supports 120hz directly cause there is no 120hz source." and this is not true since
1: people hook up TV to computers

Yes HDMI goes 10Gb, so PC graphics can go 120fps

But no there is no TV spec for 120fps, not even planned for near future AFAIK. The industry set the standard, not hdmi.org. TV content is still trying to move from interlace to progessive. Movie is trying to go 48fps. How 60fps and 48fps converge in the future will be interesting.
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post #105 of 106 Old 01-31-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

But no there is no TV spec for 120fps, not even planned for near future AFAIK. The industry set the standard, not hdmi.org. TV content is still trying to move from interlace to progessive. Movie is trying to go 48fps. How 60fps and 48fps converge in the future will be interesting.

You and walford make the same point, which is pretty much correct. The content tends to set the specs for TV. 50/60 fps interlaced is about as high as it goes right now, although support for 50/60 fps progressive have been a boon to home console gaming. There hasn't exactly been demand for pushing 120 fps on consoles, but rather eeking out more quality at 30/60 fps.

So PC use would be the main driver for 120+ fps content. And even then, the primary driver in PC use are things that can actually generate that framerate. So games, mostly. Yes, the PC can also do interpolation on its own, but that's not exactly a mainstream situation currently. That driving force is still small enough that it isn't where manufacturers are spending effort.
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post #106 of 106 Old 06-09-2013, 06:49 PM
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New information:
This information shows up as a top search result (June 9th, 2013) in Google USA, when searching "120Hz from PC to TV".
So people still visit this thread from Google. There are now many televisions that can accept 120Hz from a computer (in an undocumented way). This is done via ToastyX Custom Resolution Utility, or EVGA PIXEL OC utility, or other utilities -- to force 120Hz from a PC to TV. True native 120Hz, not interpolated 120Hz. Includes confirmations via Refresh Rate Multitool!

HDTV Refresh Rate Overclocking HOWTO:
120Hz from PC to TV


Several success reports include:
-- Vizio M420SL and e3d420vx (1080p at 120Hz from PC to TV)
-- Panasonic VT50 plasma (1080p@120Hz)
-- SEIKI 4K HDTV (1080p@120Hz).
-- Etc.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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