4:4:4 Chroma needed for HDTV as a computer monitor? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 63 Old 11-22-2010, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking at getting an HDTV for use as a primary computer monitor. I'm looking at around a 40", viewed from 40-48" away.

I've been doing research and realize the need for 1:1 pixel mapping, but it seems as though most displays have that nowadays so that's not really a problem. Lately, though, I've seen talk of making sure that the display can display a 4:4:4 chroma signal without downsampling it, and I'm looking for some advice.

First, should I focus only on displays that can do 4:4:4 properly, or won't I be able to tell the difference? I am planning on using the display mostly for text, where it seems to make the most difference.

Secondly, which displays do 4:4:4 properly? Do most displays do it over their VGA port, or is that even hit and miss? Is there a list somewhere? Thanks.
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post #2 of 63 Old 11-22-2010, 06:44 PM
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In a word "yes". I have tested computers with TVs without 4:4:4 color, and in my opinion they look terrible. For instance, if you draw a circle on the screen, as the line creating the circle transitions to vertical, the line goes from a bright saturated color to a dull washed out color. I've also found some TVs also blur the pixels together, creating an even a more washed out image. I've even noticed some pixel dimming even on displays with so called 1:1 pixel mapping. I'm almost at the point now of going out and buying a professional large format monitor designed for the purpose, even if I lose a few of the video bells and whistles.

Michael
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post #3 of 63 Old 11-22-2010, 07:44 PM
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I agree with Michael2000 on all points. The lack of 4:4:4 chroma will cause edges to blurry and color uniformity will be slightly off.

Colmino has done a 4:4:4 test on several sets, and only the RCA 40LA45RQ passes (funny, I know). You can see the results here (link). He doesn't have the greatest camera, but his results gives an idea why 4:4:4 chroma is important.

As for which sets support 4:4:4 on the HDMI input, I've only seen proof for the LG xxLD450, the Samsung LNxxC530 (requires PC mode, which adds 20ms of input latency), and the aforementioned RCA. Generally speaking, most sets will do 4:4:4 on the VGA input (even if it doesn't on the HDMI input), but like you said, its hit or miss.
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post #4 of 63 Old 11-22-2010, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses. This helps clarify things and I realize that 4:4:4 chroma will be something I definitely want in the monitor. Its unfortunate that more monitors don't support it. Michael, have you tried either the LG xxLD450 or Samsung LNxxC530 and found them lacking? I'm interested in getting the LG as it seems reasonably priced, and well reviewed, as long as you get the IPS in the panel lottery.
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post #5 of 63 Old 11-22-2010, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNovaNick View Post

Thanks for the responses. This helps clarify things and I realize that 4:4:4 chroma will be something I definitely want in the monitor. Its unfortunate that more monitors don't support it. Michael, have you tried either the LG xxLD450 or Samsung LNxxC530 and found them lacking? I'm interested in getting the LG as it seems reasonably priced, and well reviewed, as long as you get the IPS in the panel lottery.

I haven't tried either one of the two TVs mentioned.

I am now considering professional large format monitors instead. There are quite a few available these days, and as long as you don't go above 55", they are fairly reasonably priced. Some examples include:

Samsung 550DX and 550EX
NEC S521, S551, and P551
Sony GXDL52H1 (pricey)
Sharp PN-E521
LG MS203CCBA
Viewsonic CD5230 and CD5233

Michael
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post #6 of 63 Old 11-23-2010, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNovaNick View Post

Secondly, which displays do 4:4:4 properly? Do most displays do it over their VGA port, or is that even hit and miss? Is there a list somewhere? Thanks.

I can confirm that the Sony KDL-46EX505 does 4:4:4 nicely when hooked to a HTPC via HDMI and set to "game mode". Unfortunately it gives you an Input lag of 60ms. All other modes work better at 4:2:2.
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post #7 of 63 Old 11-23-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officejunky View Post

I can confirm that the Sony KDL-46EX505 does 4:4:4 nicely when hooked to a HTPC via HDMI and set to "game mode". Unfortunately it gives you an Input lag of 60ms. All other modes work better at 4:2:2.

I always find it strange that color subsampling reduces lag times. You would think the engineers would just set the 4:4:4 color as a "straight thru" mode with no processing. There must be something else going on.

Michael
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post #8 of 63 Old 11-25-2010, 12:22 AM
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Hi Michael,
i might have expressed myself somewhat misleadingly. What i ment is that in the game-mode the Sony presents itself with an input lag of 60ms, regardless of the chroma resolution settings. I have no data about what influence the 4:2:2/4:4:4 settings have on the lag itself, nor has http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0100603700.htm
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post #9 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officejunky View Post

Hi Michael,
i might have expressed myself somewhat misleadingly. What i ment is that in the game-mode the Sony presents itself with an input lag of 60ms, regardless of the chroma resolution settings. I have no data about what influence the 4:2:2/4:4:4 settings have on the lag itself, nor has http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0100603700.htm

Interesting article. They said that the Game Mode puts it into 4:4:4 color mode.

Michael
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post #10 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

Interesting article. They said that the Game Mode puts it into 4:4:4 color mode.

Michael

They mention it in a way suggesting that this is exceptional in TV sets (and 4:4:4 is not mentioned in any other of their reviews). Can it be true that the 4:4:4 color mode is exceptional in TV sets?

In my ignorance I thought any TV with HDMI can do it??? How about high-end sets like e.g. Samsung 8000 series? It is hard to believe they are not able to reproduce full signal from PC???

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post #11 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 04:12 PM
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The UK version of Toshiba 40RV753 support 4:4:4 in Game and PC modes. It also support 10-bit color and embedded with 10-bit dithered S-PVA panel.

If the US version is identical to the US version, it maybe the best choice as it is very cheap and has low lag (35ms)
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post #12 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

They mention it in a way suggesting that this is exceptional in TV sets (and 4:4:4 is not mentioned in any other of their reviews). Can it be true that the 4:4:4 color mode is exceptional in TV sets?

In my ignorance I thought any TV with HDMI can do it??? How about high-end sets like e.g. Samsung 8000 series? It is hard to believe they are not able to reproduce full signal from PC???

The majority of Samsung sets do support 4:4:4 but only in PC mode and the source has to be connected to DVI/HDMI port(which is usually HDMI1)
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post #13 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 04:56 PM
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I feel compelled to chime in on this as it's my pidgin. As thepoohcontinuum noted earlier, I did a great plethora of tests on various current TVs and found that very few could pass 4:4:4 color under any circumstance. The RCA was one, but its screen quality and lack of features sort of put it off the map.

What wasn't mentioned was that I finally found a champion in the form of the LG 450 series (32 and 42 inch at least, and probably 47 inch, though I never tested it). Only the 450 series. The 520 and above, and the new low-end 400 models all fail 4:4:4.

As a bonus, the 450 series has monitor-like input lag when set up properly (~16ms on the 42 inch - top that), and gives you great control over color. Downsides are a scarcity of inputs (2 HDMI) and dubious viewing angle.

Samsungs can pass 4:4:4 but have some of the worst input lag, regardless of mode. Unless you like your mouse pointer to feel like it's attached to a spring, I'd avoid.
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post #14 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 05:33 PM
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Not all Samsung models have high input lag. Series 4 and 5 have excellent to good level of latency
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post #15 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

I haven't tried either one of the two TVs mentioned.

I am now considering professional large format monitors instead. There are quite a few available these days, and as long as you don't go above 55", they are fairly reasonably priced. Some examples include:

Samsung 550DX and 550EX
NEC S521, S551, and P551
Sony GXDL52H1 (pricey)
Sharp PN-E521
LG MS203CCBA
Viewsonic CD5230 and CD5233

Michael

Is there a thread here about pro displays? I have been eyeing the NEC P521 for a long time now (I have the NEC hardware calibration unit and software), but the Samsung 550EX looking mighty good [LED backlight (local dimming?), higher contrast ratio (dynamic?), faster response of 6ms, thinner, 120Hz (5:5?)]. Only downside is that the panel is 8 bit with dithering to make it closer to 10bit. Not sure if the NEC is the same.

I really think we need a pro display thread on AVS.
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post #16 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 06:39 PM
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Only certain LCD panels are 10+ bit native. The majority of 10+ bit panels are dithered from 8-bit. On the plus side, it does the job fine.
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post #17 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

I haven't tried either one of the two TVs mentioned.

I am now considering professional large format monitors instead. There are quite a few available these days, and as long as you don't go above 55", they are fairly reasonably priced. Some examples include:

Samsung 550DX and 550EX
NEC S521, S551, and P551
Sony GXDL52H1 (pricey)
Sharp PN-E521
LG MS203CCBA
Viewsonic CD5230 and CD5233

Michael

This is only my conjecture, but I have a feeling the input lag on those displays might be horrendous. I briefly looked at the overview pages of some of the sets you mentioned, and it looks like these displays are designed to be running 24x7x365. Plus some are a bit more ruggedized to handle the punishment of bad environmental conditions (i.e., large temperature variations, shock proofing, etc). Generally high-speed electronics don't fare too well in conditions like this, so things have to be sacrificed a bit. Its analogous to the Panasonic Toughbook laptops -- built like a tank to withstand anything, but the performance is lackluster.

On a different note, since these displays are geared towards the business market, the support/sales staff will probably have more detailed specs available like input lag. Wouldn't hurt to shoot them an email or phone call to see if they have the info available.
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post #18 of 63 Old 11-27-2010, 11:16 PM
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As far as high-end displays go...

Rather large panels (40-50 inch) were used in a Capcom-sponsored (I think) SF4 competition some time ago, and the last I read anything about it, people were still trying to figure out what those panels were. Input lag was reportedly not an issue. Price was speculated to be in the multiple thousands.
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post #19 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colmino View Post

I feel compelled to chime in on this as it's my pidgin. As thepoohcontinuum noted earlier, I did a great plethora of tests on various current TVs and found that very few could pass 4:4:4 color under any circumstance. The RCA was one, but its screen quality and lack of features sort of put it off the map.

What wasn't mentioned was that I finally found a champion in the form of the LG 450 series (32 and 42 inch at least, and probably 47 inch, though I never tested it). Only the 450 series. The 520 and above, and the new low-end 400 models all fail 4:4:4.

But how about non-miniature, real-size LCD sets: 55",60",65"?

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post #20 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 06:22 AM
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That uk test on the ex500 is incorrect. the ex5 sets run 30ms or less lag in game mode when properly tested.

Just saying.
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post #21 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

That uk test on the ex500 is incorrect. the ex5 sets run 30ms or less lag in game mode when properly tested.

Just saying.

Define properly

So far, all of our scores have been accurate to few milliseconds (+/-3). Also, latency above 30ms is very easy to detect.


PS: Having stated above, the US models may contain different panel or processor (or both) in comparison to the European models. Usually that is the case with Samsung sets, but it may also apply to Sony.
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post #22 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Define properly

So far, all of our scores have been accurate to few milliseconds (+/-3). Also, latency above 30ms is very easy to detect.


PS: Having stated above, the US models may contain different panel or processor (or both) in comparison to the European models. Usually that is the case with Samsung sets, but it may also apply to Sony.

properly refers to many things that most people do not calculate for when testing.

The laptop or desktop needs to be in clone mode to send a signal to the tv so that you can see the lag counter on both units. When in clone mode the same res that is on the lappy is sent to the tv. this ruins the test for many systems. Reason being that the native res of the laptop and desktop on many systems is NOt a hd tv resolution.

In my tests with a laptop native res 1600x1200 the ex500 scored a 50ms lag time in game mode 80 when not.

configuring the test properly required me to set the laptop to 1280x720 60 hz which then was sent to the tv. This also required me to turn off aero on the laptop as windows aero has vsyn in it also manipulating the test.

anywho with proper setup my 60ex500 now scores 20-30ms in game mode and in graphics mode and 50ms in custom mode(which is for tv viewing)

All pic and info are posted properly in the lag test thread. the ex500 with bravia2 in the us is a 30ms or less set. Also of note is that a local dimmin bravia3 set utilizing the newest method for proper test also resolved a 40ms rate. Both results much lower than perviously suspected of sonys due to improper procedure.

the sonys are most likely slightly faster than we reported as there is still slight scaling from 720p to 1080p going on but thats niether here or there because its even faster than we showed. Although only slightly faster.
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post #23 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 10:57 AM
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Cloning isn't as accurate as a splitter . If you're comparing the HDTV against a multisync CRT, you'll be forced to use cloning, which means you must factor in error correction.

Secondly, both displays have to be configured to the TV's native resolution @ 60Hz or allow the GPU to scale the image. Allowing the TV to scale the image will often causes lag as the image must be analyzed prior to scaling.

Thirdly, single timer is useless since CRT, LCDs and PDPs refresh from top to bottom, which means there's 16.7ms difference between the first line and the last line. So in order to reduce false readouts, software such as SMTT must be used.


As you can see, we consider all the factors before carryout the tests.


PS: In Europe, we often get superior models compared to the US and in the case of EX500, the US models features BRAVIA Engine 2 and the UK model features BRAVIA Engine 3. So yes, the level of lag will be different.

PPS: BRAVIA Engine is just a marketing term/classification of groups of chips with identical performance. So for an example, models fitted with BRAVIA Engine 2 will not preform equally as some may feature NEC chip while others may feature Trident chip. At least with Samsung, we can find out the panel type and the processor type without accessing the service menu or opening the set.
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post #24 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

First of all, cloning isn't accurate so a splitter must be used. If you're comparing it against a multisync CRT, you'll be forced to use cloning, which means you must factor in error correction.

Secondly, both displays have to be configured to the TV's native resolution @ 60Hz or allow the GPU to scale the image. Allowing the TV to scale the image will often causes lag as the image must be analyzed prior to scaling.

Thirdly, single timer is useless since CRT, LCDs and PDPs refresh from top to bottom, which means there's 16.7ms difference between the first line and the last line. So in order to reduce false readouts, software such as SMTT must be used.


We consider all factors before carryout the tests.


PS: In Europe, we often get superior models compared to the US and in the case of EX500, the US models features BRAVIA Engine 2 and the UK model features BRAVIA Engine 3. So yes, the level of lag will be different.

PS: BRAVIA Engine is just a marketing terms/classification of groups of chips. So not all BRAVIA Engine 2 models will be identical as some may feature NEC chip while others would feature Trident chip. At least with Samsung, we can find out the panel type and the processor type without accessing the service menu or opening the set.

There is nothing wrong with cloning. It sends thhe same image one to once device, one to the other. Specify this error correction.

Secondly. Sending the resolution of the tv set would be optimal yes. But many(an unknown amoount) of the tests in the lag thread and done at various sites do not specify the resolution sent. Due to the horrid times out there on the ex500 I can only conclude that they did not use native tv res. Furthermore I can conclude they used the pc or laptop native res often which isnt a standard hd resolution. This causes problems with lag. I have concluded this due to the timing results being similar to when my setup was improperly sett this way with similar results.

However many laptops pc's etc cannot produce 1080p and have lower res outputs. This required me to send an hd resolution that was at least a resolution the tv would properly understand and quickly convert hence 720p. Granted this produces a result that is slightly less desireable as the tv then has to upconvert 720p to 1080p. With that said this only means that the set under optimal situation would be faster than my result.

As for your last claim the accuracy of result can quickly be eliminated by the fact that multiple photos taken reproduce nearly the same result. ex500 20-30ms closer to 30ms lag in game and graphics mode.

Sorry if this displeases you but it is factual and thats that.
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post #25 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
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Sorry if this displeases you but it is factual and thats that.

You're correct in certain areas and I've already addressed them. But you've completely ignored all the points in my post and you also forgot factor the different processors used.

Anyway, we have already done our research and have been accurately obtaining the results for many years. With SMTT, we have improved the error considerably.
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post #26 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

You're correct in certain areas and I've already addressed them. But you've completely ignored all the points in my post and you also forgot factor the different processors used.

Anyway, we have already done our research and have been accurately obtaining the results for many years. With SMTT, we have improved the error considerably.

I'm in deparate need of SMTT!
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post #27 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Only certain LCD panels are 10+ bit native. The majority of 10+ bit panels are dithered from 8-bit. On the plus side, it does the job fine.

The XBR8 has a 10 bit panel (and a 10 bit processor).
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post #28 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by coolkev99 View Post

I'm in deparate need of SMTT!

I only have the Vista/7 version. It should work on XP, but I can't promise anything. Also, if you have an NVIDIA GOU, it may crash the drivers
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post #29 of 63 Old 11-28-2010, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The XBR8 has a 10 bit panel (and a 10 bit processor).

Dithered 10-bit

In order for an LCD to display 10-bit color natively, the pixels have to produce 1024 shades, which severely impact the pixel response; and LCD manufacturers (Samsung in particular) are already experiencing problem maintaining acceptable level of pixel response within the 256 range (8-bit). Static monitors (such as scientific and medical) are capable of 10-bit and monochrome (medical) are capable of displaying even higher but I'm not aware of any consumer grade panel with such capability. Not to mention, there's no real benefit because:

1. The difference between native 10-bit and dithered 10-bit is virtually non-existent*** and since the display in question is a TV, it's impossible to detect any errors. So it doesn't justify the additional costs involved.

2. 10-bit processor is far more important than 10-bit panel as it allows errors to be rounded-off during processing, which results in clean-smooth gradients.


***: the same could be said for native 8-bit vs native 10-bit


PS: Today's 6-bit can perfectly emulate 8-bit without any obvious artifacts, which wasn't the case few years back.
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post #30 of 63 Old 11-29-2010, 04:27 AM
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The discussion about 4:4:4 HDMI ignited this question in my mind which is not about displays but about sources:

Is there any camcorder available which can output 4:4:4 uncompressed video over its HDMI output?

The reason for this question is that there are 1080p camcorders with 3CCD/CMOS sensor chips. Uncompressed 4:4:4 HDMI video output would be a prefect test signal. That is because 3 chips can produce perfect color components without any subsamplng on the the way-

There are high-end professional cameras which have professional HD-SDI output which presumably is 4:4:4 and could be converted to HDMI. But the question here is about camcorders which could still be in the consumer price range.

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