why does LCD look better then plasma to me??? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 135 Old 01-03-2011, 11:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
EscapeVelocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 5,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 108
I would have owned a Plasma a long time ago, if they had improved their limited whites.

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
EscapeVelocity is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 135 Old 01-03-2011, 04:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
specuvestor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
^^^you mean brightness?? Personally I feel plasma brightness is less stressful to the eyes without affecting PQ, once you are accustomed.

Just as loudness is not AQ, neither is brightness or vibrant color PQ. Agree with ruadmaa that each has own preference but importantly we need to know how much we are deviating from REFERENCE. If we cannot agree on the reference then all these arguments on LCD and plasma are moot, never ending and circular.

So if one likes super heavy bass then it is moot to comment that reference AQ is dull or wrong. Comparisons between different set ups should be made with regards to the reference level, not preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

There usually isn't a one size fits all setting. I do get upset when people tell me that I should be watching an "accurate" picture when that is not what I prefer at all. If you were to compare this to audio settings, some people prefer their audio with a little more bass, others with a little more trebble, and then many prefer the flat settings and consider it sacrilege to mess with any type of tone setting. Accurate is a good place to start and then experiment to determine what you personally like.

specuvestor is offline  
post #123 of 135 Old 01-03-2011, 04:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
EscapeVelocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 5,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 108
specuvestor,

Yeah, well Plasma looks much much better in the dark. As the pupils are dialated enough to compensate for the lower brightness (white levels).

Unfortunately I have a huge bank of windows on 3 sides of the room with my video monitor.

That being the case, I have a True Matte Screen LCD with the resulting much poorer black levels. However the overall viewing experience is much better, than a reflective screen LCD would offer, much less Plasma, during daylight hours. I also have an LG S-IPS panel. Vizio GV42LF. I could probably improve my lot a bit with a true matte screen Samsung 4661F or 4669F, or a 2008 and earlier Sharp...which had better inherent blacks, but the angle of view would diminish somewhat.

There is no perfect solution. And situations and tastes vary. [shrugs]

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
EscapeVelocity is offline  
post #124 of 135 Old 01-03-2011, 04:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Frank Benign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My problem with "mix according to taste" prescriptions is that you can end up fiddling with the damn thing forever. I did some of that when I got my computer monitor. Then I downloaded someone else's profile and left it at that for the last 4 years.
Frank Benign is offline  
post #125 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 09:43 AM
 
DocuMaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshman211 View Post

I'm not a tech expert on TV's but is this because alot of companys use SPVA panels? I believe IPS offers a wider angle of viewing. I have a Dell 30 Ultrasharp that is IPS and it has an awesome view at any angle.

Yes, the IPS panels give you much better viewing angles, but at the expense of much worse black levels. This is where you need a local-dimming solution to make up for the poor black levels. Then you can have excellent, deep blacks and relatively wide viewing angles all rolled into one.

As I said, the only problem is, I don't like LG's motion processing, their banding, and last but not least, their horribly reflective screens, that do not preserve black levels/contrast in a bright room.

I like jet-black glossy screens like you find on Samsungs, this year's Sonys, and recent Toshibas.

Trying to get everything I want in one TV is tough.

Basically all I want is a Samsung locally-dimmed LED (ala B8500) but with an IPS panel instead of Samsung's SPVA.

I like Samsung's motion processing (on their 240hz LED's) the best, I like their glossy screens the best, and some of their displays are very aesthetically pleasing as well.

The only thing I really hate about a top locally-dimmed Samsung LED is the crappy viewing angles. That really spoils the experience for me.

LG has come a long way when it comes to design aesthetics, but they are still amateurs when it comes to screen treatments. That's why my nickname for them is Lotsa Glareā„¢ (LG).

And Samsung has the best processing--hands down. Better than Sony, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba--all of them.

But year after year, Samsung trots out LED's with horrible viewing angles.

I would gladly jump over to LG or Vizio if they would learn to copy Samsung's processing and screen filters.
DocuMaker is offline  
post #126 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 09:57 AM
 
DocuMaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

I think we've gone back and forth on the viewing angle position before and as I have said in other threads, I just don't see a significant drop in contrast until you start to get to extreme viewing angles on the vast majority of modern displays I've seen. My roomate has a vizio (not sure what year or model) that does visibly drop contrast when you go just a few degrees off-axis, but even going into the extreme angles, while the colors are off quite a bit, it is still very watchable.
I do notice a fair drop in contrast with a lot of Edge-lit LED sets I have seen, but CCFL LCD's tend to be very solid in the viewing angle department.

Well, I could place myself precisely in the middle of my Samsung C630 CCFL, in the dark mind you, and then simply toss my head to either side, and the opposite side of the screen would visibly lighten up and shift in brightness. On my B8500 (locally-dimmed) and C8000 LED's (edge-lit with some precision dimming), it's hard to even get a uniform color while watching a grass field. If you move your head even one iota to the side, the opposite side of the screen shifts in brightness, and the color washes out.

I just think that some people are more oblivious to these things, and just aren't that picky. They are too absorbed with the programming on the TV, and aren't noticing that the green football field on one side of their TV is slightly washed out and not as saturated as the other. It's also easy to notice when you are watching programming that has black pillar bars on the sides. Even a slight shift to the left or the right, and the pillar bar on the opposite side of the screen will lighten up and not look nearly as deep as the closer side.

I don't buy into this belief that edge-lighting is the problem with viewing angles. It's the panels themselves that Samsung, Sony, Sharp, Toshiba etc. are using that have inferior viewing angles.

I have seen plenty of CCFL displays with crappy viewing angles.

Usually it is much easier to notice these screen-uniformity problems in the dark, so it wouldn't surprise me if people who watch TV with lights on all the time, would not be as sensitive to subtle shifts in brightness across the screen.

I don't know how anyone can find the viewing angles acceptable when viewing in the dim/dark. Only in a brighter room is it not as noticeable.
DocuMaker is offline  
post #127 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NicksHitachi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 3,445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 90
http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcd-...scorecard.html

Don't waste time reading signatures.....
NicksHitachi is online now  
post #128 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 10:13 AM
 
DocuMaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yes as long as you enjoy what you have now is fine. But a better discipline from this experience is actually to find out why those reviews think the VT25 is the best available display today instead of concluding they are dopes and plasma is a fail after 10min. Then you would probably understand better why if you still disagree with them.

1) All the early reviews that came out and concluded that the VT25 was the best out there were hoodwinked by Panasonic's trickery, where there are deeper blacks out of the box....but they don't last. Post-rise they are no better, and perhaps even inferior (no one can say for sure yet) to a Samsung (depends on the size, i.e a 42/50/58/63).

2) Many of those reviews never mentioned the crappy processing that comes with a Panasonic, which tells me that these reviews are limited both in scope and usefulness. Just a small piece of the overall puzzle. If the reviewers actually knew what they were doing, they could not have overlooked the processing issues on the Panasonics.

3) The 3D on the Samsung plasmas lagged behind Panny at first, but Samsung closed the gap after some FW upgrades, and now their 3D is pretty close to the same quality as Panasonic's version.

4) It's a pretty well established fact that the larger 58/63 inch Sasmungs have deeper blacks than the smaller 42/50 inch models. Also, some people experienced some glitches on some of the early-released 50 inch Samsung review models, that manifested elevated black levels, or they measured them with Cinema Smooth engaged. Once again, a FW upgrade lowered the black levels.

So many of the early reviews were incomplete, or inadequate, or premature.

The Samsungs got better as time went on with FW upgrades, and the Panasonics have gotten worse as time has gone by, with rising black levels.

The VT25 has been overpriced for what you get, and so the value proposition skews in favor of Samsung as well.
DocuMaker is offline  
post #129 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 10:28 AM
 
DocuMaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

I would have owned a Plasma a long time ago, if they had improved their limited whites.

They have. Where have you been? While they all have improved, one key advantage the Pannys have over the Sammys this year is on majority to full screen whites. The Panny almost looks like an LCD. Nice high white output with high-APL scenes. The Samsungs do look a bit dimmer (seems grayer), although if you had nothing to compare it to side by side, it would satisfy most.

The majority of the time, the content you are watching is of a low enough APL that the picture does not have to dim, or at least not significantly.

It's mostly commericals and such that have a majority of the screen white where you will notice the plasma dimming.

90% of the time it's never an issue. If you skip through commercials it's more like 95% of the time not an issue.

Now, if one wants to use their TV as a puter monitor, that is a different story. An LCD/LED will be more suitable because many pages have a white background, and with the LCD/LED you will not have an issue with burn-in.

But for TV purposes, I think that is just a nitpicky excuse to shun plasma. There must be some other relevant factors that come into play that you are not telling us about. That can't be the only reason.
DocuMaker is offline  
post #130 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 11:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
PathofNeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Basically all I want is a Samsung locally-dimmed LED (ala B8500) but with an IPS panel instead of Samsung's SPVA.

Well on the B8500 thread we're discussing the new locally-dimmed LCD by Samsung for this year. I haven't heard anything, but apparently it's showing at CES. Maybe they will use an IPS this time around?

I strongly agree with you about viewing angles. It was for this reason alone that I got rid of my 46A950.. despite being the juggernaut it was. I'd give up my Kuro in a heartbeat to have an IPS locally dimmed Samsung with their Godly motion processing. Sony's processing isn't bad either but no way I'd buy one.
PathofNeo is offline  
post #131 of 135 Old 01-04-2011, 11:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
EscapeVelocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 5,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

They have. Where have you been?

Enjoying my LCD HDTV for years.

Nitpicking about viewing angles is some peoples gripe.

I have great viewing angles and a matte screen (room is North facing with East and West walls, all solid banks of windows), poor blacks, Vizio with LG IPS panel 2007 GV42LF.

I quit paying attention to plasma when the brightness actually dropped as they moved to 1080p from 720p.

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
EscapeVelocity is offline  
post #132 of 135 Old 01-05-2011, 09:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
specuvestor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post


1) All the early reviews that came out and concluded that the VT25 was the best out there were hoodwinked by Panasonic's trickery, where there are deeper blacks out of the box....but they don't last. Post-rise they are no better, and perhaps even inferior (no one can say for sure yet) to a Samsung (depends on the size, i.e a 42/50/58/63).

2) Many of those reviews never mentioned the crappy processing that comes with a Panasonic, which tells me that these reviews are limited both in scope and usefulness. Just a small piece of the overall puzzle. If the reviewers actually knew what they were doing, they could not have overlooked the processing issues on the Panasonics.

3) The 3D on the Samsung plasmas lagged behind Panny at first, but Samsung closed the gap after some FW upgrades, and now their 3D is pretty close to the same quality as Panasonic's version.

4) It's a pretty well established fact that the larger 58/63 inch Sasmungs have deeper blacks than the smaller 42/50 inch models. Also, some people experienced some glitches on some of the early-released 50 inch Samsung review models, that manifested elevated black levels, or they measured them with Cinema Smooth engaged. Once again, a FW upgrade lowered the black levels.

So many of the early reviews were incomplete, or inadequate, or premature.

The Samsungs got better as time went on with FW upgrades, and the Panasonics have gotten worse as time has gone by, with rising black levels.

The VT25 has been overpriced for what you get, and so the value proposition skews in favor of Samsung as well.

Think most of your comments are fair.

But D-Nice, who was the first to discover the rising black, was also at last year's shootout that crowned VT25. You can't say they don't know what they were looking for.

Incomplete review yes. IMHO it is not rocket science to output 1080p with 1080p input, but proof of pudding is what's the PQ when the input is SD. But for their purpose of HD review, panny is the best though I agree the processor is not top notch.

I am a kuro owner and never owned a viera.
specuvestor is offline  
post #133 of 135 Old 01-08-2011, 06:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
imws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 1,399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
All good points, I've been in this hobby for a while and have gone through a myriad of displays but that returned VT25 was my first Plasma and again go for what looks good to you. Just a bit about my current gear, since I hardly consider myself an uneducated user. I've had a Sony 1080P LCOS front Projector, Ruby, since 2006 which is still going strong and displays a very cinematic picture and is so enjoyable to watch. In 2007 I added a JVC RS1 1080P projector to the mix and like the Sony it is fun to watch movies and regular TV on these devices. I'm currently using the Denon Realta based 602CI video processor for video switching, processing, and deinterlacing. I had used a Lumagen HDQ for a number of years and recently replaced it with the Denon in the summer of 2010 and man what a difference. Silky smooth processing and detailed and sharp to my eyes. Watching 1080p24 processed films on the Denon sent to the RS1 is a lot of fun. For causal viewing I'll use my Sharp 32" 1080p LCD or the Sony 40" 1080p XBR unit I have in another room. My front projector screen is a Carada 96" diagonal 16x9 Brilliant White. I really enjoy using all the devices that I have and hope to enjoy them for several years to come.
imws is offline  
post #134 of 135 Old 01-08-2011, 08:54 AM
Member
 
traind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonLoaf View Post

I was just getting ready to gush over this response when I saw that ruadmaa already did. Well done, NuSoardGraphite!

Yes, that was a great explanation and post!

I'd like to hear NuSoardGraphite's take on the best LCDs and motion/contrast right now. It seems to me that the contrast has gotten really good on the best LCDs but motion is still an issue?
traind is offline  
post #135 of 135 Old 02-21-2013, 08:48 PM
Member
 
Padrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Great posts in this thread. One of the best discussions on LCD/Plasma I have ever seen.

Now that I have owned a big screen LCD/LED (local dimming) TV for a few years, I wen't back to the stores to see what I thought of the high end Plasma TVs of today. I did this because you still hear Home Theater die hards singing the praises of plasma displays and I am sure the praise is well deserved. And, I know that stores don't set them up well and plasmas will look its best in a dark room etc.

I still found that for me, plasma displays have a "soft" image. Much softer than LCD. And I also understand why this may appeal to movie buffs and other videophiles. The softness of the plasma display seems to remind me of theater projections which I also find similarly "soft". A soft display can also mask out imperfections and also may reduce harshness of motion that is inherent in a 24fps medium (can be made worse by 3:2 pull down etc) . LCDs try to use processing tricks to smooth out motion with mixed results.

But after taking a long look, I now know that I prefer the look of LCDs. Especially the height end models. But part of the reason, may be a developed taste for LCD type displays of the past few years...
  • I have been using pretty good LCD screens for years for my computers and I am used to the "sharp" quality of LCDs.
  • I have owned a good LCD TV and now when I look at plasma all I can see is a softer image which, in my mind, is "less good".
  • I play video games and I feel they look best on a "sharp" display.
  • I think the high end retina LCD displays look amazing and very accurate even when in motion.

So, I think it comes down to "motion". Most people agree that a high-res LCD like a retina display will show the best looking still image over plasma. This is why there are very few computer displays that are plasma because you want the very find detail when reading text etc. But with motion, that changes the game. I think plasma may add just the right amount of softness to movies today that make them feel like movies in the theater and I think this softness actually can make them look better for movies to movie buffs. But with movie tech going digital, I think the era of 24fps film is on the decline as well and with it, some of the advantages of a soft display. But mostly, I think LCD is just what my minds eye thinks is the best even if the motion artifacts can be a bit worse etc.

The strange thing is, that most experts say that plasma should be sharper especial with motion because they are faster (less motion blur) etc. But I just don't seem to see it that way. I usually find LCDs look best even with motion except in certain kinds of motion (like panning over city scapes).


So, not matter what anyone tells you, you have to decide for yourself which looks best to you. So, get yourself to a good home theater store (if there are any left wink.gif) and have them dim the lights to the level you will most often watch TV and judge for yourself.
Padrino is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off