Official 70"+ LCD thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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You may wish to check the update to the initial message of this thread with video where Sharp rep confirms the price of higher 70" model in the range of $5K.

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post #32 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 12:32 PM
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interesting video. bezel doesnt look too unruly either. oddly, when I try to go to sharp.com (as mentioned in the video) I keep getting kicked to a medical website. sharpusa.com works though.
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post #33 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post

Hey Rogo (long time..) your posts are sort of bumming me out

Reason is that every Sharp LCD I've seen blows. Any reason to believe the 70" sharp will have caught up to the best stuff out there?

If not it's Sony 65 or Panny 65 for me I guess...

Anthony, it's so hard to tell. The demo material Sharp selected looked awfully nice, but when I asked them to display something with "motion" they directed me to dancers in monochromatic primary outfits who were dancing more or less in place. There is probably no more brutal motion-handling test than football, yet I never saw any from Sharp. Nor did I see any movies with genuine high-motion scenes. I would say this: I shared your opinion through 2010. I'm going to reserve optimism for Sharp 2011 and we'll know pretty soon.

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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

And the prices you mention for Sharp (are they real?) make anything in the 5-digit range next to impossible.

Irkuck, sir, I can only report what they told me -- confirmed by multiple reps, but people on the show floor who didn't know me from anyone. The low-end set will have a MAP of $3300. That suggests to me an opening price of $3500 and the kind of "you can sell it cheaper than $3300, but you won't get any more if you do" policy that MAP implies. Perhaps SRP will be as high as $3999, but....

I twice clarified the price on the higher end set -- which again was described to me as 240 (vs 120), locally dimmed full array LED (vs full array but no local dimming) and 3D (vs not) and the reps said that while final pricing has not been set, $4500 to $5500 is the range. They were acutely aware of the position of the Panasonic 65" sets that have been in the marketplace as the sole 65s since they left the market -- and were candid about why they did. It was almost as if they were saying, "Look, this is 70 inches, it's going to cost more than 65-inch sets do, but not a lot more."

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #34 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 05:37 PM
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Sharp 10G Plant cut 6*60"panel

all other 8G Plant cut 6*55"panel

not sure what's the next bigger economic size for 10G/8G plant to cut


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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Sharp has the only 10G LCD plant but with <60% utilization, while Sammy and LG are >90% utilized. Not much incentive for the Koreans to do large sizes unless they get much more $ per m2

If anyone can make big size economically RELATIVE to the rest it will be Sharp. For their sake they better hope there is a market for large TV.

As usual the Japanese will start the ball rolling but the Koreans and taiwanese will carry the baton. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.

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post #35 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 07:53 PM
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Thanks Rogo. I am very much in the market for a 65" (or larger) set this year and best PQ gets my money!

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post #36 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecgz88 View Post

Sharp 10G Plant cut 6*60"panel

all other 8G Plant cut 6*55"panel

not sure what's the next bigger economic size for 10G/8G plant to cut

According to Morgan Stanley G8 can make 3*65" and G10 6*65". Looks 65" optimal for both generations
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post #37 of 1421 Old 01-13-2011, 11:44 PM
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I have samsung 67" led dlp (3d ready) and waited a long time for flat panels of 65" or larger. Wanted something 67" or larger as that is what i had but settled for the sam un65c8000 which was pricey and though I got a good deal, somewhat disappointing.

Had heard about vizio full led 3d lcd but turned oit to be vaporware as LG who makes their panel wouldnt make it for them.

There is a un65d8000 but not much different except thinner bezel and better remote.

Was interested in the LG 72" 3d full led lcd but no release date, concern that their response time and 3d arent good and i already have 4 pair 3d glasses.

Wishing samsung would make something larger then 65" but very disappoonted in their ego (they are now like sony of the 80's), high prices and lower quality (at least in the case of the un65c8000 which is made in mexico, has banding and flashlighting galore and still high priced)

Overall very disappointed in the complete lack of any 3d flat screen tv's larger then 65".

I dont like plasma and panasonics os kond of thick and igly compared to thin sexy led lcds, but being panasonic has had a 3d 65" plasma for a long time now and its top rated pq (2d & 3d) maybe they can be the first to make a larger then 65" but with no word of one i guess LG is next. But being their 55" was 5k i dont have much confidence in the price. And they wont give vizio the panel as they dont want vizio to put out tv with same panel for less and undercut them.
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post #38 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 12:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Irkuck, sir, I can only report what they told me --
.....
I twice clarified the price on the higher end set -- which again was described to me as 240 (vs 120), locally dimmed full array LED (vs full array but no local dimming) and 3D (vs not) and the reps said that while final pricing has not been set, $4500 to $5500 is the range.

Rogo, Gentleman, your intelligence was correct. There is now hard semiofficial proof by the marketing director of Sharp in the video from his own mouth that the price of the higher 70" model is targeted to be "below" $5K. The arrival time is stated for the summer.

This price level for 70" changes the game. It is hard to imagine how others could keep price close to 10K and price above 10K for 75" look unrealistic. Perhaps others will retire from this segment? The 5K 70" will also push the 65 incher prices down. Things look good for those who want 70" and those not

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post #39 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post


Rogo, Gentleman, your intelligence was correct. There is now hard semiofficial proof by the marketing director of Sharp in the video from his own mouth that the price of the higher 70" model is targeted to be "below" $5K. The arrival time is stated for the summer.

This price level for 70" changes the game. It is hard to imagine how others could keep price close to 10K and price above 10K for 75" look unrealistic. Perhaps others will retire from this segment? The 5K 70" will also push the 65 incher prices down. Things look good for those what want 70" and those not

Great news. The fact that its full led like LG's 72" which being set for "early 2011" will probably beat out the sharp but will also probably be 10k considering LG's 55" is 5-6k.

Hopefully the sharp is as thin as samsung led lcd but being the sharp is full led and sam not plus samsung maxes out at 65" sharp 70" seems the way to go.

Need something now though. Need to exchange my un65c8000 but probably wont bother with the slight improved 65d8000 for prob same inflated price.

But will most likely bypass the LG 72" in favor of this more then likely significantly less expensive sharp 70". Hope they get it out in early "summer".
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post #40 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatre View Post

Need something now though. Need to exchange my un65c8000 but probably wont bother with the slight improved 65d8000 for prob same inflated price. But will most likely bypass the LG 72" in favor of this more then likely significantly less expensive sharp 70". Hope they get it out in early "summer".

Regarding the PQ things are totally open. Some reports were saying Samsung D series is not merely cosmeticized C but viewing angle and black levels were considerably improved. On the other hand, Sharp was underperforming recently with no top range electronics and their Quattron panel with yellow pixels was criticized for too much yellow tinge which could not be corrected by settings.

Big sets look very demanding from the PQ point of view, all potential problems are magnified and thus more irritating. The sets should be then nothing less then prefect. This is the reason manufacturers set on full local dimming. Except Samsung which perhaps improved side backlight with micro dimming to the level of local dimming. That will be seen when the D series appears.

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post #41 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Regarding the PQ things are totally open. Some reports were saying Samsung D series is not merely cosmeticized C but viewing angle and black levels were considerably improved. On the other hand, Sharp was underperforming recently with no top range electronics and their Quattron panel with yellow pixels was criticized for too much yellow tinge which could not be corrected by settings.

Big sets look very demanding from the PQ point of view, all potential problems are magnified and thus more irritating. The sets should be then nothing less then prefect. This is the reason manufacturers set on full local dimming. Except Samsung which perhaps improved side backlight with micro dimming to the level of local dimming. That will be seen when the D series appears.

If you truly think Samsung is bringing anything close to perfect in a large size go read the friggin 65" C8000 thread as it's akin to reading a Sharp banding thread from 3 years ago - problem after problem and based on the feedback it's an overpriced piece of crap so far and so what do you think Samsung would price a 75" panel that truly isn't a production model - economically Samsung has no plant that produces motherglass in 75" size and calculate the costs based upon the current 65" it'll have a consumer market of perhaps 1% and they debuted it six months late and production levels are paltry and they are using price fixing tactics to keep prices artificially HIGH but they won't be able to do that much longer as competition arrives in the months ahead.

As far as the Sharp 70" and Quattron I've studied the shootouts and other feedback and if you understand the Color Wheel and professional print media those concepts have successfully been used for decades - Yellow is a member of the Primary/Secondary colors just as Cyan and Magenta and I have never seen reports of YELLOW TINGE. Yes it has issues with Color Space but the benefit is it provides a much more vibrant PQ which many consumers are drawn to and Joe Sixpack isn't sitting on his rear calibrating. On the one hand you criticize the Sharp as being less than perfect and yet there is no such BAR - No Panel is perfect and that includes mighty KURO! Please point us to that panel thread somewhere here - no such thing exists.

You seem to brag on Samsungs edge lit paper thin panel (despite the problematic feedback over in it's 65" thread) and yet Sharp is switching to it's full local dimming and you still trash the Sharp - I would bet enhancing the Sharp with full local dimming and at a consumer friendly price will at least enable large HT panels. I've viewed numbers of video's on the Sharp 70" at CES and it looked fantastic IMO or as good as Youtube can provide.

You may want to change the thread to 65"> since it's unlike you'll ever see a 75" Samsung that you seem to favor this year. Admittedly, I would favor a new Sony 65" versus the Sharp 70" for it's closer to perfection PQ and 3D IMO. Besides there are half a dozen manufacturers upgrading to 65" panels it seem this year also and get left out on this thread. You do seem to have a bias toward the Samsung and they have no consumer 70" for about 3 years now and it was $33K. That perfect PQ doesn't exist as the bar for Holy Grail Panel gets nudged every year - the bar changes and never seems to be met on this forum anyways.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #42 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 04:40 AM
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Uhm,,,About one month ago when i became aware of this upcoming LG 72" LCD i did a more extensive search and got a link to a large distributor in the Middle East (and i mean Asia here !?) stating the release of the same unit for that particular market for the beginning of 2011 with a msrp of $7.250.
Granted, that's the Middle East where $$$ abound, but i imagine now that Sharp pretty much announced the release of a "Quattron" 70" LCD with full-dimming LED backlight + 3D capable for around $5.000, i am sure both Vizio and LG will have to reconsider their pricing structure for these humongous sets.
BTW, what is the msrp of the 72" Vizio ? And isn't it listed at their website as being LED edge-lit with dimming, which would imply some kind of dynamic contrast feature but not necessarily local-dimmed ?
All i can say is hurrah to Sharp for bringing this set to market with such features + price and promised performance !
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post #43 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

... You do seem to have a bias toward the Samsung and they have no consumer 70" for about 3 years now and it was $33K. That perfect PQ doesn't exist as the bar for Holy Grail Panel gets nudged every year - the bar changes and never seems to be met on this forum anyways.

Samsung is widely recognized as the overall best performer. Sharp is quite sharply crticized. This is the overall tone in the market. Criticizing Samsung that they had no consumer 70" for about 3 years is not logical: the era of 70" is just now.

The critique of Quattron PQ was not concerning the 4-pixel principle which sounds OK, but its implementation. If Sharp would have so good setting tools as Samsung/LG then one could tune Quattron to perfection, but that was not possible.

I would like to see Samsung D series before sentencing it to just the cosmetics. The edges of lighting were changed to vertical and microdimming is introduced. Hard to accept this was not quite an improvement if Samsung put this type of backlight into the 75 incher. They had to be sure it can effectively compete with local dimming.

One could think the 75" is vaporware if not the significant competition building up in the 70" segment. Samsung must be in this market and they will be. They do not want to become also-runs.

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post #44 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 10:29 AM
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that's not true

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...123_27342.html


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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
According to Morgan Stanley G8 can make 3*65" and G10 6*65". Looks 65" optimal for both generations
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post #45 of 1421 Old 01-14-2011, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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that's not true

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...123_27342.html

it's true

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post #46 of 1421 Old 01-15-2011, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Rogo, Gentleman, your intelligence was correct. There is now hard semiofficial proof by the marketing director of Sharp in the video from his own mouth that the price of the higher 70" model is targeted to be "below" $5K. The arrival time is stated for the summer.

This price level for 70" changes the game. It is hard to imagine how others could keep price close to 10K and price above 10K for 75" look unrealistic. Perhaps others will retire from this segment? The 5K 70" will also push the 65 incher prices down. Things look good for those who want 70" and those not

So yes, I am inclined to agree that this is a game changer. But how much of one and who's game is it changing? LG is very much an over-promise and under-deliver outfit when it comes to big things in the U.S. And their 72-inch was singularly unimpressive -- even among their other models. Will they still try to get $8k or $10k for it? I think so. I mean Samsung tried to get $6k for a flagship 65-inch last year and by delivering so few, they did get that. LG can't realistically be planning for quantity shipments of the 72. And so they'll likely price it accordingly.

But I see the Sharp as a revolution in the size/price equation, even if the picture quality is awful. I am optimistic -- cautiously -- that the picture quality won't be awful. Like I really want it to be good and think the expensive one might be good, at least in some critical ways. But I think we'll have to wait and see.

In the meantime, it's almost irrelevant if the inexpensive model is terrible. Every single unit they can produce will sell out at retail. Open-box returns will also sell. If they can deliver 10,000 70-inch sets in the US, that'd be great. If they can deliver 50,000, well that's better.

I know this is going to sound silly because LG and Samsung are both wonderful companies, dominant producers of LCDs and so forth, but the only sets I'm really curious about this year are the Sharp (both models, mostly the pricey one) and the Sony (the 65-inch 929 model). The Sharp wins obviously on size combined with great pricing.

The Sony wins on cosmetics -- hands down to me, no one was even close -- and the fact that by coming late to market, they will be pricing in a world that is much more crowded with alternatives. I mean, if Sony is dead serious, the set in question will be priced at the same level as a Panasonic VT30. If it's more, honestly, I'm going to disregard it. Because that will mean it costs more than the significantly larger high-end Sharp as well as the de facto "TV to beat" -- the high-end Panny wins best picture awards almost every year.

I've dismissed the LG for aforementioned reasons -- it's fat, it's dimmer and less contrasty than other LGs. I've dismissed the Samsung because of the shiny bezel and stand and serious questions about affordability and availability. The Samsung does offer perhaps the best app platform and the tiniest bezel and the most impressive lit-room contrast. So I'd like to reconsider it -- but they have to deliver something soon and show that Samsung pricing aggressiveness we've come to know.

It could be a huge year for huge TVs. Or it could be that at $4,000 and up, they remain an odd niche with low volumes and inferior picture quality to their smaller siblings.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #47 of 1421 Old 01-15-2011, 12:48 PM
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we are talking about how the panel been cut, not 11G plant is true or not.

11G plant is still just a plan.

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it's true

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post #48 of 1421 Old 01-16-2011, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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But I see the Sharp as a revolution in the size/price equation, even if the picture quality is awful. I am optimistic -- cautiously -- that the picture quality won't be awful. Like I really want it to be good and think the expensive one might be good, at least in some critical ways. But I think we'll have to wait and see.

Here one agrees. Sharp has now all the strings to become the king of huge size. They can flood the market, they can undercut the competition and they can become synonymous with huge size. But... Sharp as a major panel company is not followed by Sharp electronics. Which resulted in the past in strange effect that it was impossible to set colors correctly. Here is typical report on this (see Color part). Hopefully for the 70 inchers Sharp will come with improved settings.

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post #49 of 1421 Old 01-16-2011, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It could be a huge year for huge TVs. Or it could be that at $4,000 and up, they remain an odd niche with low volumes and inferior picture quality to their smaller siblings.

I agree, I think after years of hype the year of huge TVs are upon us. Here's my post on the plasma forum:
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Back to the topic of what is the highlight of CES: I think it is BIG. May not be obvious for most here, but the average global size of TV has been pretty stagnant past 2 years, though admittedly statistically skewed by China. I think in 2011 the average size will likely break the big 4 from 32+" last year.

Think in the DEVELOPED markets we will see most 50" TV (both plasma and LCD) going to mass market <$1000 by Christmas this year, and top 10% of buyers will go 60" or more. The question of whether there is a market for large TVs will be answered in next 12 months.

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post #50 of 1421 Old 01-16-2011, 04:46 PM
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we are talking about how the panel been cut, not 11G plant is true or not.

11G plant is still just a plan.

sorry but I don't see any mention of cuts in the 2 year old article u posted? If you are just looking at the diagonals to approximate it may be incorrect as I've seen cuts mixed with vertical and horizontal alignments

I am just quoting off MS research appendix and not defending them in any way. In any case huge size ie >60" is new territory even for analysts.

Yes there is nothing concrete for 11G. Maybe more info end this month with Sammy's investor conference. Sharp must really screw up for Sony if S-LCD is "revived" again after souring at 8-2
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post #51 of 1421 Old 01-16-2011, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I agree, I think after years of hype the year of huge TVs are upon us. Here's my post on the plasma forum:

Well, Spec, outside of Sharp and Panasonic, I have serious reason to doubt anyone will mass deliver 65s or bigger this year. :\\ Fortunately, those 2 companies are big.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #52 of 1421 Old 01-16-2011, 11:16 PM
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I'm excited for to see the Sharps. Sharp sets are usually hit or miss, personally I love my LE700 minus the banding it has. It seems like the lower end 70-incher is a continuation of the le700 + quattron tech. I think their LE920/925 sets look really good if they're messed with enough and Sharp has the best 3D implementation/performance in an LCD from what i've seen (at least in 2010 models). Their E88UN CCFL sets look great too.

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post #53 of 1421 Old 01-16-2011, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
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Well, Spec, outside of Sharp and Panasonic, I have serious reason to doubt anyone will mass deliver 65s or bigger this year. :\\ Fortunately, those 2 companies are big.

+1 and I think 50" and below will be commoditised, all the best to the other japanese brands besides these 2
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post #54 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, Spec, outside of Sharp and Panasonic, I have serious reason to doubt anyone will mass deliver 65s or bigger this year. :\\ Fortunately, those 2 companies are big.

One has to be sober and see that there is no mass market for huge TVs. It is and it will be always a high-end market. Even if the price is lowlowlow mainstream people will not buy them due too big size.

What will however happen this year is that 70"+ will join the range of standard offerings. Just as the 55" is now standard with 60", 65" joined the ranks recently and are establishing themselves there.

What will follow then is that tier-1 producers will be jumping to have the 70 inchers class in their offering. That will be easier for those who have top LCD production lines: Sharp, Samsung, LG. Those who do not have, like Sony, will be following later.

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post #55 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 01:41 AM
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^^^this is a long debate that IMHO will be coming to an end. maybe by then the argument would be whether 60" is considered huge or 10% constitutes a market
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...top 10% of buyers will go 60" or more. The question of whether there is a market for large TVs will be answered in next 12 months.

As I posted above, Sharp would be devastated if there is no huge TV market and Sammy's 11G plan probably belongs to the trashbin.
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post #56 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 03:08 AM
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Yeah, for sure. If it turns out that 70-inch TVs are too big for all but 5% of the market, Sharp has a serious problem. I think at $3300 the market is actually pretty substantial, but how substantial I don't know.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #57 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 03:16 AM
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71" Vizio model XVT3D71OCM - cinema display 21:9, 2560x1080 res, full local dimming, 3D with passive glasses, availability 2011

I know this says availability 2011 but do we have a time frame by chance? Im trying to see if this model will come out first or either the LG LW9500.
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post #58 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
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If you truly think Samsung is bringing anything close to perfect in a large size go read the friggin 65" C8000 thread as it's akin to reading a Sharp banding thread from 3 years ago - problem after problem and based on the feedback it's an overpriced piece of crap so far....

Samsung C8000 series was considered one of the best on the market if not the best in 2010.

Now Samsung claims that D8000 MicroDimming Plus is significant improvement. It does not look only marketing gimmick, see the pic.
Also, moving the backlight to vertical edges should bring huge perceptual effect to the letterbox format as it will get borders like a black hole.
LL

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post #59 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 11:55 AM
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I'm a tad skeptical of the few C8000 owners opinions that the set was so amazing. I mean there is a pretty powerful "I bought this, I love this" effect, especially when paying for premium goods. Samsung's TVs did look really good displaying very easy-to-look-good-at demo material at CES, however, so I certainly hope they both deliver a 65 and that it's amazing.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #60 of 1421 Old 01-17-2011, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I'm a tad skeptical of the few C8000 owners opinions that the set was so amazing. I mean there is a pretty powerful "I bought this, I love this" effect, especially when paying for premium goods. Samsung's TVs did look really good displaying very easy-to-look-good-at demo material at CES, however, so I certainly hope they both deliver a 65 and that it's amazing.
Many, if not all reviews put C8000 in top rank. About the D8000 series here is first look CES review concerning UK model. Interestingly they do not mention 65" model, only 60" - so maybe 65" is not for EUrope since the director of Samsung marketing N. America clearly mentions the 65" in the lineup.

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