Official 70"+ LCD thread - Page 33 - AVS Forum
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post #961 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 08:43 AM
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"Best in class" is a self explaining statement. But when you start throwing conclusions using the words "awesome" and "Very Good" that's way too subjective. I think the Chevy Corvair was awesome but it's long gone.
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post #962 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Highlight of the coming first review of the Elite 70" tells this:

1. Best in Class Black Level
2. Best in Class White Field Uniformity
3. Awesome Color Accuracy
4. Very good motion resolution and handling of 24fps from Blu-ray


To me this means Elite is the best LCD ever in the eyes of the reviewer but it is not matching up to the best of plasma.

You're link isn't working. Looks like AVS edited it.
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post #963 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

You're link isn't working. Looks like AVS edited it.
what comes after the triple ws and before the com

Yeah, right, no linking then, so please accept it is genuine citation from a well-known competing forum .

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

"Best in class" is a self explaining statement. But when you start throwing conclusions using the words "awesome" and "Very Good" that's way too subjective. I think the Chevy Corvair was awesome but it's long gone.

This is only highlight, there should be substance behind these words. But it reads like it is very respectable set but not earth-shaker-kuro-beater.

Still wondering about the price: very precise color reproduction and uniformity is perhaps achieved by elaborate and costly electronics plus individual tuning of each set in factory .

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post #964 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

A genuine question rogo:

How do you come to the figure 65k @$4500? I mean really... instead of "25,000 from 73x, 5,000 from Elite, 35,000 from competitors". What competitors? Did you used Kuro as a dirty reference for the price-demand? I seriously think NOBODY really knows the price elasticity. If true then I think Sammy & LG would be very tempted to do this already, and Sharp would have done it 3 years ago. We're actually in no man's land here...

So Spec, I have an advanced degree in a business-related field from a reasonably well-regarded institution of higher learning. What I can tell you from my learnings in that field is that marketing is both part art and part science.

Sharp does not exist in a vaccuum. By selling at $3000 and $7500, they lose very nearly every sale that would exist between about $4000 and $6500 to competitors. Those people opt out of Sharp because they have it in their mind to spend that kind of money, but Sharp offers they no product.

The only reason they don't lose 100% of those sales is because Sharp offers the only 70" on the market, which is why I credit 25K of the sales to the low-end Sharp. These are buyers that would normally want a $4000 (or so) TV, Sharp doesn't sell one, but these people want big and so they buy this "low end" Sharp that is big and are OK with it. They would gladly have paid Sharp more, but they couldn't.

In the meantime, there is some large pool of buyers that is seeking alternatives today. They find their way over to Panasonic to buy the VT30 for $4299. They buy the Samsung 65D8000. They are super excited by the fact that Sony's 65HX729 is in the marketplace now and will be more excited by the 65HX929. These are customers that are simply opting out of Sharp.

If Sharp had product in their price range, Sharp would get customer wins there. Can I actually state it's 40,000 such customers? Of course I can't. But I can reasonably guesstimate it is. It's certainly a multiple of the people who'd buy the Elite for $7500-8500. Is that 2x? 3x? 5x? But because Sharp would have a third product tier it could satisfy an entire class of customer it cannot even reach with the current strategy.

I get that AVSers don't entirely appreciate the way "normal" people shop. But they go to stores or log onto the web and look for things to buy. Most of them go to stores when they are buying TVs. They have some number in mind for what they'll spend before they even start, usually anchored by a previous purchase, an advertisement, a friend, their bank account, their bonus, their net worth, some combination of all of these. People are often willing to spend some amount and will find a product that fits their spending band, rather than spending what it takes to get some arbitrary product.

This is especially true for a brand like Sharp, whose mind share has not been lower in the LCD era. 2010 was a bad year for Sharp and they've had to fight and claw to get back into the forefront. The inexpensive 70" has been their greatest weapon to do that. But normally, it would have a companion TV that retailers could upsell to for interested buyers. Typically, you'd be able to take any pool of people looking at the cheapest model and move somewhere between about 15-35% to the upsell model. That model does not exist for Sharp. (Note, the $200 upsell from 732 to 734 is so bizarre, I don't even want to get into how pointless it is. It's embarrassingly bad marketing in that it serves only to confuse customers.)

When customers are confronted with a $3000 Sharp and a smaller but more expensive Panasonic or Samsung, their mind naturally starts asking: "What is better about those?" And salespeople are happy to answer. They do this for reasons nefarious and honest. And honestly, a number of those people came in thinking it was going to cost them $4000 and, well, something must be wrong with that $3000 TV and they aren't going to buy it.

This is really the way the world works. It's why Kia or Hyundia can't charge $10,000 less than Audi, build a comparable car and just take all of Audi's sales (there are things about Audis that are obviously better than those cars, but the point is, the would-be Audi buyer is not actually looking to save $10,000, they are looking for a car they perceive to be worth $40,000). If you follow the strategy of the Koreans, they've tried to build better cars over time and slowly raise prices to make more money while also increasing the perception they are better cars. It's a cycle for them.

Sharp failed a very basic lesson here. I'm sorry, but they did. Again, we can quibble over exactly whether or not I'm right on the specific numbers. But I'm right on two things:

1) Some portion of 73x buyers would have paid $1000 more for a TV that would've cost Sharp $100-200 more. And the loss of Elite sales would've been minimal to zero.

2) Some portion of Samsung/Sony/Panasonic/LG buyers who won't buy Sharp would've bought Sharp if there was a genuine offering in the $4500 price band (+/-).

And in the end, Sharp would've made more money and sold more total units and gotten more evangelists in a year where all three of those are pretty essential to their future.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #965 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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post #966 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:

Yes, all of the pictures suggest it is:

1) Worse than the 73x Sharp's

2) Worse than the Samsung D8000, which is my "worst ever high end LCD" for reflectivity -- until now

I noted this in some other post. And it might actually be a fundamental dealbreaker for me, regardless of price. It's probably the "thing about my plasma I hate the most" after 5 years. I see no reason to repeat the problem going forward.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #967 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 01:41 PM
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I don't pretend to have an MBA or any marketing degrees. I just sell tvs and am pretty familiar with customer's priorities.

The average non-enthusiast customer (probably 97% or more of the market) walks in with a specific size and price range in mind and wants the most reliable set they can get at that size for that money. Videophile pq is usually the last thing on their minds. They're more attracted to whatever's brighter and shinier. If a given size $2K set isn't a lot brighter and shinier than the same size 1.6k set they won't pay the difference.

If we parked a hypothetical $4500 70" Sharp 935 next to a $3000 732 we wouldn't sell more than one or two a year. That's about how many UN55C8000s we sold--on the floor they didn't look any better than the cheaper C7000. This year we don't even sell the D8000.

GM, for most of it's history, had an ascending heirarchy. You started with Chevy, then progressed upward to Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and finally Cadillac. In today's market the midrange brands are pretty much superfluous and two of them have already gone away. The only reason we still have Buick is because they're extremely popular in China.

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post #968 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 02:05 PM
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http://www.whathifi.com/blog/usa-eli...heyre-not-kuro

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post #969 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 02:11 PM
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Wow! That may be the most reflective screen I've ever seen.
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post #970 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 02:19 PM
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http://www.twice.com/article/472001-...CD_TV_Line.php


http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/EL...for-8500.shtml

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
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post #971 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 02:56 PM
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"The line will give dealers as well as Sharp and Pioneer a new margin opportunity for flat-panel products. Comparably sized 70- and 60-inch Sharp Aquos TVs are now selling for $4,799 and $3,299, respectively."

Seriously Twice, do some modicum of reporting and look less stupid next time ok?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #972 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

I don't pretend to have an MBA or any marketing degrees. I just sell tvs and am pretty familiar with customer's priorities.

You dont need an MBA to make sense You're right but it also depends on the demographics of your customer base and differentiation. That's why manufacturers always focus on "features" to differentiate products so the PERCEIVED value of a higher end product looks sensible to them. My observation agrees with you that most of the time it cannot be minute PQ improvements like black levels to attract J6P. Got to be things like 3D, glossy for better contrast, vibrant color, brightness; or quantitative based like 1080, 240Hz and yes, thin. So if Sharp is using minute PQ to be differentiating factor for the middle range (though make sense for elite catering to videophile market), it will be in trouble.

@rogo I am not arguing against market segmentation. In fact I said they will most certainly introduce a mid range at around $4500 guesstimate. What I disagree is how you can confidently guesstimate a volume of 65k when just 6 months ago many don't even think the demand exist? I don't think Sharp knows either. The only flake you can argue is why launch elite before mid range? IMHO if they launch the mid range before Christmas they are doing well, marketing wise. And frankly I don't think Japanese are particularly excellent in product marketing past few years.

Like we discussed previously, pricing on the low end will have to increase, but not apple to apple but slapping marketing "model change". $200 is big deal for Sharp to turn cash cost positive.
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post #973 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 07:54 PM
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It actually matters surprisingly little whether the market existed before or not. But it did in fact exist. There were $5000 TVs last year and the year before and the year before.

I don't actually know it's 65K, as I said.

What I know for certain is what I said:

1) Some of the demand that went to the bottom of the Sharp stack could've been upsold. Yes, there would've had to have been features and such. But the notion this doesn't work is silly. Look at Panasonic's VT, GT, ST. It proves the concept. So does Samsung's 8000, 7000, 6000, etc.

2) Some of the demand for other people's $4000-5000 TVs would have gone to Sharp.

These are axiomatic.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #974 of 1421 Old 08-05-2011, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Sociology & economy aside, Elite are targeted, apart of those making huge money in the present climate, for videophiles teasing them with impeccable PQ. There are some concerns though if the PQ is really delivered:

- number of zones not paralyzing
- apparently high-gloss surface
- first impressions: 'best in class'??? could be best among 70 inchers class
- full review delayed, has to be massaged?

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post #975 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 12:53 AM
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"full review delayed, has to be massaged?"

But will it deliver a "happy ending"?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #976 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"full review delayed, has to be massaged?"

but will it deliver a "happy ending"?

lol
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post #977 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 11:57 AM
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All these socio economic debate in here all the time really makes it hard to get the facts on what 70"+ tvs are/will be available in the coming couple months.

Looks like sharp 70" x5 is going to be $8500 msrp? If I can get the 5" larger and nicer looking aesthetically but otherwise inferior sam 75" (d9500) for the same price I will be tempted to do that and just settle for a sharp 70" 735 (3d so I consider it in different categorythen 732-734 though it seems to bemired with them) later for basement.

I probably can't get an even exchange for my 65c8000 for a 65d8000 but can make useofmy free buy back (mine as well before it keeps going down in value and after a few years to nothing) so kind of makes sense to use it towards the 75d9500 which will make the price seem not as bad but even then I will only do it if I can get the 75d9500 for same price as sharp 70" x5. Yes sam 75 is 5" bigger but I defile in every other way (Cept maybe exterior looks which is subjective opinion) so I am only willing to pay same price as the 70" x5 not more which being sam 75" is extremely overpriced at 13k msrp even though retailers already told me they will sell for around 10 or under, it may still be a little bit before it comes down to sharp 70x5 $8500 price territory.

This puts me in a stale mate to not even get the 735 because I wouldn't get that if there is a chance I get the X5. Sam 75d9500 and sharp 70" 735 for basement would be a nice combo I guess if I spread our the purchase.

Is the X5 really going to be worth the amount of money extra over the 735? Why arent they doing a mod level 835 70" like they have a 60" 835?

Any other info on the sam 75" or other 70"+ tvs (open to plasma for basement but need led lcd for fam room cus of light)?

This isn't just a sharp thread and also isn't a thread to debate whether there is demand or not for 70"+.
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post #978 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Yes, all of the pictures suggest it is:
1) Worse than the 73x Sharp's
2) Worse than the Samsung D8000, which is my "worst ever high end LCD" for reflectivity -- until now
I noted this in some other post. And it might actually be a fundamental dealbreaker for me, regardless of price. It's probably the "thing about my plasma I hate the most" after 5 years. I see no reason to repeat the problem going forward.
Indeed, it looks more and more certain the "improvement" they made over the 732 is changing to a mirror surface of the display. I wonder how the review will look: "Best LCD mirror ever"ยด?

If the mirror surface is confirmed it means Elite is epic proportion flop. Those watching in totally dark rooms may be attracted to it but any light will be making the TV awfully distracting.

Not knowing about the other 70"+ coming to the market, is Sony 65" HX929 potentially the only balanced sizable high-end TV this year?

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post #979 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 04:45 PM
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I was never that bothered by reflectivity and sometimes kind of prefer the look of a shiny screen as opposed to matte aesthetically but my fam room tv does actually have a sliding glass door in the area open to and directly behind it. Vertical blinds block most of the light but still and there are other windows in the sides as well as a door with window further back on the other aide which even with sjadeon that can possibly create a relflection.

But what I'm going to do, go with the 735 as my main best fam room tv? Nah.

I'll just have to get more andbetter shadesfor now if possible and otherwise suck it up during the day and watch more at night or in basement during day and for real dark movie viewing during day, eventually equip my smaller media room in basement currently used as a play room/toy storage.

I can understand a shiny plasma because you have to use plasma in rooms with less ambient light anyway but the point of led LCD is for brighter rooms with more windows. Also I understand shinier looks better externally for selling in store but for a high priced videophile tv like the elite they should have known their customer for that tv will prefer less reflective.

The 732 is not very reflective so equal reflectivity for the elite x5 would have been fine but it's funny that in one if the pictures of the X5 they show it with a huge reflection from a window or something in the background
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post #980 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 05:21 PM
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here is a link with some pictures on it. please give some feed back

http://www.engadget.com/photos/sharp...-tvs-hands-on/

This link below are specs and pdf brocures and downloads

http://elitelcdtv.com/full-elite-spe...ons-downloads/


Wow the specs look really nice, i swear it looks like a kuro :-)

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
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Pioneer Elite SC-05
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OPPO DV-981HD
Sony Play Station 3
APC Power Conditioner...
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post #981 of 1421 Old 08-06-2011, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

here is a link with some pictures on it. please give some feed back

http://www.engadget.com/photos/sharp...-tvs-hands-on/

This link below are specs and pdf brocures and downloads

http://elitelcdtv.com/full-elite-spe...ons-downloads/

Wow the specs look really nice, i swear it looks like a kuro :-)

The gold elite logo looks pretty 80's ish...
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post #982 of 1421 Old 08-07-2011, 12:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatre View Post

The gold elite logo looks pretty 80's ish...

Glossiness of the bezel and display looks like they want to beat a record of deceiving people into believing logo and not their own eyes . This is how an ultra-high-end elite-videophile-set should look??? .

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post #983 of 1421 Old 08-07-2011, 12:59 PM
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The Elite logo and combination of brushed and gloss black bezel are in keeping with the customary look of Pioneer Elite products like AVRs etc. Sorta like the BMW roundel emblem and kidney shaped grille effect, or the 3 pointed star on Mercedes it's a recognizable design indicative of a high-end product, not the latest fad in styling as evidenced by Samsung's ever-changing design schemes like Touch of Color.

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post #984 of 1421 Old 08-07-2011, 09:03 PM
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Of course, Pioneer has abandoned the Urushi finish look for their Elite components in the U.S. at least. So they are not incapable of adapting with the times.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #985 of 1421 Old 08-07-2011, 10:57 PM
 
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well i dont know where anyone in canada is going to get anything but the basic 70 inch sharp .No dealer i talked to has any plans or orders of Higher end sharps or elites nor any Lg or samsung.
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post #986 of 1421 Old 08-08-2011, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, all of the pictures suggest it is:
1) Worse than the 73x Sharp's
2) Worse than the Samsung D8000, which is my "worst ever high end LCD" for reflectivity -- until now
I noted this in some other post. And it might actually be a fundamental dealbreaker for me, regardless of price. It's probably the "thing about my plasma I hate the most" after 5 years. I see no reason to repeat the problem going forward.

In the first review of Elite, intended to be very technical and professional, there is no single word about reflectivity of the panel. There is however a statement about the reflection in 3D glasses which means reflectivity was on the mind.

Is this forgetting about panel reflectivity a "happy ending" of the review massaging during the weekend . Or, positively thinking, the glaring issue in the Elite pics is nonissue in reality? .

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post #987 of 1421 Old 08-08-2011, 08:08 PM
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here is the review for the sharp elite
http://www.tweaktv.com/articles/elite-pro65x5fd.html

now we need to see how well the samsung will do if it comes out this year as they say

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post #988 of 1421 Old 08-08-2011, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Quatre View Post
All these socio economic debate in here all the time really makes it hard to get the facts on what 70"+ tvs are/will be available in the coming couple months.

Looks like sharp 70" x5 is going to be $8500 msrp? If I can get the 5" larger and nicer looking aesthetically but otherwise inferior sam 75" (d9500) for the same price I will be tempted to do that and just settle for a sharp 70" 735 (3d so I consider it in different categorythen 732-734 though it seems to bemired with them) later for basement.

I probably can't get an even exchange for my 65c8000 for a 65d8000 but can make useofmy free buy back (mine as well before it keeps going down in value and after a few years to nothing) so kind of makes sense to use it towards the 75d9500 which will make the price seem not as bad but even then I will only do it if I can get the 75d9500 for same price as sharp 70" x5. Yes sam 75 is 5" bigger but I defile in every other way (Cept maybe exterior looks which is subjective opinion) so I am only willing to pay same price as the 70" x5 not more which being sam 75" is extremely overpriced at 13k msrp even though retailers already told me they will sell for around 10 or under, it may still be a little bit before it comes down to sharp 70x5 $8500 price territory.

This puts me in a stale mate to not even get the 735 because I wouldn't get that if there is a chance I get the X5. Sam 75d9500 and sharp 70" 735 for basement would be a nice combo I guess if I spread our the purchase.

Is the X5 really going to be worth the amount of money extra over the 735? Why arent they doing a mod level 835 70" like they have a 60" 835?

Any other info on the sam 75" or other 70"+ tvs (open to plasma for basement but need led lcd for fam room cus of light)?

This isn't just a sharp thread and also isn't a thread to debate whether there is demand or not for 70"+.
I was in BB Magnolia tonite and they just put up a 70 735 today. They were playing a 3D blu ray and the pq was outstanding. I wasn't really looking for 3D but I put on the glasses and was impressed with that also. This set is now high on my list as I'm looking for a 65 or 70 inch set.
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post #989 of 1421 Old 08-08-2011, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by paul416 View Post

I was in BB Magnolia tonite and they just put up a 70 735 today. They were playing a 3D blu ray and the pq was outstanding. I wasn't really looking for 3D but I put on the glasses and was impressed with that also. This set is now high on my list as I'm looking for a 65 or 70 inch set.

Thats good to hear. and yeah I am between the Sharp 70 735, Sam un75d9500 and Sharp 70 X5 but if I can save by getting the 735, I can maybe justify that and the Sam 75" if trading in my sam 65" and sell a sam 67" led dlp to justify the sharp 735 (and maybe sell another old 47" lcd as well).

the X5 is just too high but so is the sam 75" even more so and its supposed to come out this month with one local a/v boutique store saying they had an order in for them and had it on their system while strangely BB didn't have it in their system but yet had the Sharp X5 available in Sept.

I would like to see a 735 next to an X5 and see if it is worth the price difference. in the end the sam 75" while inferior to the sharp x5 in every way is going to be 5" larger and look nicer aesthetically (the sharps dont look bad but not that great either and 80's ish brassy gold Elite symbol which I guess is ok for receiver but doens't do it for me on a tv and I'd actually prefer the light up Sharp star trek symbol).

But I do like Sharp as a company better and now kind of dislike samsung because of their pricing. They had 55" tvs that were more expensive then the Sharp 732 but not any better and in fact inferior

Either way this is very exciting that Elite models are back and in the form of a 70" to boot. I had just hoped that Sharps competitive low pricing like that of the 732 was going to continue through their other models. I guess the 735 will be attainable in the coming months for a better and better price but the X5 will be relativcely up there. Samsung wont sell one 75" at 13k nor above 10k. Its maybe worth the same price as the Elite just for the 5 extra inches though otherwise inferior in every way that matters (looks are subjective opinion and dont warrant extra price).

Still I need to wait till all 3 are out as well as any other possible coming contenders but yeah I wouldn't an eventual combo of 75d9500 and 70 735.
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post #990 of 1421 Old 08-09-2011, 01:37 AM - Thread Starter
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The 735 should be much less reflective than Elite - thus a winner from the point of practical usage of TV.

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