Official Sharp 2011 LC-70LE732U Owner's Thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

How is that physically possible? You are moving your head a much smaller distance than the width of the screen, so some portion of the screen must be still be visible at 90 degrees?

First of all, it doesn't matter that "a portion of the screen is visible at 90 degrees". The portion that isn't will show the drop off.

Second of all, I should clarify. If you are sitting square on the screen, perfectly perpendicular with a reasonable viewing distance, I doubt you'll notice much (any?) change in the perceived contrast. What I meant to say is that "If you are already viewing the set from a non-perpendicular angle, say a couch located on a side wall as in the Rogo household and many others, you will not only suffer from reduced contrast but also contrast that changes with very subtle movements of your head."

The reason why this matters is that some portion of us here at AVS seem immune to things in the TV picture that are flat out maddening, dizzying, brain scrambling, irritating, etc. while others just cannot watch / own TVs that exhibit some types of artifacts / effects. Many of us could not own any of the DLP RPTVs from when they were popular. It was headache city. Many of us loved them.

For me, a TV where small movements will yield noticeable changes in contrast ratio -- and this is not academic contrast ratio, this is "picture starts to look bad" contrast ratio -- is out. Not a maybe, it's out. I have a house. It has a couch dead on and one on the side. It has an eating area from which we watch TV sometimes too. I'm driven insane by the reflections on my plasma, but I'm absolutely spoiled by the fact that it has zero off-axis CR loss that is detectable in small or even large movements.

And the movement issue aside, I'd say that even 15 degrees off center, the Sharp noticeably degraded for me. At 30-40 degrees (where the couch is in the Rogo house), the TV was unacceptable. YMMV.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #272 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I went to see the 732 this weekend. The contrast drops off fairly immediately and noticeably as you move off center. It does >not< get terrible and certainly never becomes unwatchable. But it changes sufficiently quickly enough you will see it as you move your head slightly. Whether this bothers you or not is another matter. For me, I think it was a dealbreaker.
How far away from the screen were you when you moved to the side? And how far off center did you move?
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post #273 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
First of all, it doesn't matter that "a portion of the screen is visible at 90 degrees". The portion that isn't will show the drop off.

Second of all, I should clarify. If you are sitting square on the screen, perfectly perpendicular with a reasonable viewing distance, I doubt you'll notice much (any?) change in the perceived contrast. What I meant to say is that "If you are already viewing the set from a non-perpendicular angle, say a couch located on a side wall as in the Rogo household and many others, you will not only suffer from reduced contrast but also contrast that changes with very subtle movements of your head."
Fair enough. For my part I don't care about positions such as a side wall couch as you describe. Regardless of contrast the image would be harder to appreciate fully because one side of the screen would be much closer than the other, and since good sound reproduction is also important to me a position like this would not be satisfactory from a listening perspective either.

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post #274 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 05:21 PM
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Uh oh!!!

http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/11/s...ctories-follo/

Sharp shutting down the factories; how will this affect 70" availability or 935 timing?
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post #275 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeezMFNutz View Post
... Settings are through PS3 HDMI using DVE and i1 sensor. I'm not an expert and have no idea how to fix the gamma fall off at the high end of the IRE scale. Anybody with ideas?
...
BACKLIGHT +8
CONTRAST +28
BRIGHTNESS -1
...
R GAIN LO +21
G GAIN LO 0
B GAIN LO +6
R GAIN HI +26
G GAIN HI 0
B GAIN HI +5
...
Hi Deez,
I am not an expert either, but usually the gamma falls off at the high end because the display runs out of juice, i.e., Contrast is set too high. You can reduce Contrast a few notches and the gamma will flatten out to some extent. What's puzzling me is you are currently getting 29.3 ftL on your unit and Chad was able to get 34.9 on his. If/when you reduce Contrast chances are your ftL number will go down further. You did not post a picture of the CIE gamut so I don't know what it would look like. I suspect you color triangle is little off. Maybe, it's time to play with the real CMS (hues, saturations & values) if you haven't already?

On another note, after setting Contrast and Brightness you're supposed to decrease, and not increase, the RGB gains/offsets. If you do, you run into the chance of making the global contrast too high again.

You can post your cal file here and the cal experts will be able to help you further: Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here)

Good luck.
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post #276 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easycruise View Post

How far away from the screen were you when you moved to the side? And how far off center did you move?

12ish feet? I moved out to about 30 degrees off center, approximately.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #277 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

12ish feet? I moved out to about 30 degrees off center, approximately.

I owned plasma and truly hated it for far more than reflections and I find it odd that your making a big deal about viewing angle when I own five LCD's and my primary 57" five yr old Sharp has virtually no viewing angle issues from my 8.5' viewing angle and I find it hard to believe things are as badly as you present it but you've always voiced your preference for Plasma over the years here so what else could we expect.

I say your making this ten time worse than the friggin reality or your calling the rest of us LCD Fans/Owners liars or inferior to YOU and that's B.S.!

The first owner of this 70" is also an owner of a Kuro and a Panny 65" Plasma and certainly expressed no problems with viewing angles and his review was quite good.

Take your plasma with it's pissed on dirty whites, and daytime washout glare and green phoshor trails. You Plasma fans are just making a mountain out of a molehill and if I'm wrong why is the market so friggin dominated by LCD in virtually every size - about 80% of inventory in every retailor is LCD and we all aren't blind as we can see the plasma on the same wall and many of us have tried it and simply couldn't tolerate it according to our preferences.

What gets me is the arrogance of plasma owners that speak down to the rest of us that prefer LCD - plasma issues are far more than just mirror like reflections and please do tell how many movie theaters present a theatrical presentations with mirrored reflections - NONE - NADA NEVER!!! The consumer would be asking for a refund if they had to view their movies fully reflective of everyone in the theaters and their munchies while viewing.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #278 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by easycruise View Post

How far away from the screen were you when you moved to the side? And how far off center did you move?

I have the LC-70LE732U. My take is that there is a VERY small drop in contrast if you move 10-15 degrees off center. You can probably note it if you are looking for it... but otherwise it is negligible IMHO.
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post #279 of 3824 Old 04-11-2011, 10:17 PM
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Westa, I find it funny that you complain about plasma reflections when you own a Samsung 55inch LED LCD, those things all have a full gloss dark mirror screen and have some of the worst viewing angles of any LCDs availible. (LED lighting is highly directional) The glare that you will see on that set is just as bad as any Samsung Plasma and worse than most other plasma sets. (Samsung Plasma sets have filters that aim to preserve blacks, not mute reflections)

Quote:


please do tell how many movie theaters present a theatrical presentations with mirrored reflections - NONE - NADA NEVER!!!

Movie theaters show movies in a completly dark room...

And again, an odd comment considering you own a full gloss Samsung model...


One piece of advice Westa, stop basing your opinion of plasma tech off of that 2005 Panasonic that you owned, it doesn't help your argument one bit and usually inspires nothing but laughs from forum vets. (seriously, that TV came out 6 years ago)

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post #280 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

I owned plasma and truly hated it for far more than reflections and I find it odd that your making a big deal about viewing angle when I own five LCD's and my primary 57" five yr old Sharp has virtually no viewing angle issues from my 8.5' viewing angle and I find it hard to believe things are as badly as you present it but you've always voiced your preference for Plasma over the years here so what else could we expect.

I say your making this ten time worse than the friggin reality or your calling the rest of us LCD Fans/Owners liars or inferior to YOU and that's B.S.!

The first owner of this 70" is also an owner of a Kuro and a Panny 65" Plasma and certainly expressed no problems with viewing angles and his review was quite good.

Take your plasma with it's pissed on dirty whites, and daytime washout glare and green phoshor trails. You Plasma fans are just making a mountain out of a molehill and if I'm wrong why is the market so friggin dominated by LCD in virtually every size - about 80% of inventory in every retailor is LCD and we all aren't blind as we can see the plasma on the same wall and many of us have tried it and simply couldn't tolerate it according to our preferences.

What gets me is the arrogance of plasma owners that speak down to the rest of us that prefer LCD - plasma issues are far more than just mirror like reflections and please do tell how many movie theaters present a theatrical presentations with mirrored reflections - NONE - NADA NEVER!!! The consumer would be asking for a refund if they had to view their movies fully reflective of everyone in the theaters and their munchies while viewing.

Your post is a series of lies, half truths, bits of misinformation, insult, etc.

I think my objectivity here is pretty well understood.

I never called anyone a liar in this thread.

For whatever it's worth, I have a very old Sharp LCD (7 years?) in my exercise room. I cited my plasmas annoying reflections as its "thing that makes me most want to replace it". It's not otherwise flawless, but it certainly loses 0% of its perceived contrast off axis and shows no change in contrast as you move slightly from one spot to another. I defy anyone with the Sharp 70 inch LCD to claim that it loses 0% of its perceived contrast off axis (if they do claim that, they are just wrong). I defy them to also claim you can move your head a bit while off axis and not notice a subtle change.

Regardless, I think my mini review was actually positive, despite including a list of serious issues that will probably preclude me from owning one.

Feel free to resume insulting me and stating things that aren't true. I will leave you to that.

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post #281 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 01:25 AM
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To move the discussion back into technical/perceptual issues:

Is anybody able to compare the viewing angle of the 55" Samsung D8000 and 70" Sharp?

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post #282 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 05:06 AM
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Any new suggested settings??
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post #283 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

To move the discussion back into technical/perceptual issues:

Is anybody able to compare the viewing angle of the 55" Samsung D8000 and 70" Sharp?

Can't compare it to the 55D800, but can compare it to the 55C7000, which now resides in my Living room. With C7000 sitting off to the side the can be viewed clear as a bell. However when you go from sitting down to standing up you can see a very slight shift in contrast. This is not seen when sitting or standing directly in front of it. The shape of my couch brings the veiwing distance from about 4ft on the side to about 10ft head on.

With the 70 inch Sharp, out in the garage, my furniture is not set up to suply the same exterme of viewing angles. I have done everything but stand on my head and whistle Dixie. I don't see any drop off in PQ. It's been a couple of years since I have taken an eye exam, but the last time I did, I could read the 20-10 line without a problem.

Now, it should also be said that when I stand up in the living room I am looking down on the Samsung, when I stand up in the garage I am still looking right at the Sharp. Which takes me back to Chad's review. I think he said that if you were to mount it high on a wall, he would recomend a tilt mount.
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post #284 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rockaway1836 View Post

Can't compare it to the 55D800, but can compare it to the 55C7000, which now resides in my Living room. With C7000 sitting off to the side the can be viewed clear as a bell. However when you go from sitting down to standing up you can see a very slight shift in contrast. This is not seen when sitting or standing directly in front of it. The shape of my couch brings the veiwing distance from about 4ft on the side to about 10ft head on.

With the 70 inch Sharp, out in the garage, my furniture is not set up to suply the same exterme of viewing angles. I have done everything but stand on my head and whistle Dixie. I don't see any drop off in PQ. It's been a couple of years since I have taken an eye exam, but the last time I did, I could read the 20-10 line without a problem.

Now, it should also be said that when I stand up in the living room I am looking down on the Samsung, when I stand up in the garage I am still looking right at the Sharp. Which takes me back to Chad's review. I think he said that if you were to mount it high on a wall, he would recomend a tilt mount.

Thanks rock, this adds something. In this context one also should add that people probably put subconsciously TOO HIGH PQ expectations into the Sharp 70" and I also sobjected to this asking for comparison with Samsung 55" D8000. This is conceptually WRONG.

D8000 is Samsung flagship. Sharp is not, it is low-end big TV. It has full array LED backlight but this just directly substitute CCFL and adds nothing more. As a value-for-money Sharp is terrific and much better than D8000. For proper PQ comparison with D8000 one has to wait for the Sharp high-end 70" model series 9.

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post #285 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Thanks rock, this adds something. In this context one also should add that people probably put subconsciously TOO HIGH PQ expectations into the Sharp 70" and I also sobjected to this asking for comparison with Samsung 55" D8000. This is conceptually WRONG.

D8000 is Samsung flagship. Sharp is not, it is low-end big TV. It has full array LED backlight but this just directly substitute CCFL and adds nothing more. As a value-for-money Sharp is terrific and much better than D8000. For proper PQ comparison with D8000 one has to wait for the Sharp high-end 70" model series 9.

Well put. I am torn between PQ (Couple of my friends have samsung 8000s) and Size. I went to local frys and saw the Sharp and in spite it being not properly calibrated, I thought it was pretty good. While I definitely understand that this is not going to have all bells and whistles of a flagship TV, I do want to make sure that it doesn't have any glaring issues. As long as it has good PQ for 1080p/i res (I dont care much for SD picture anymore) it looks like a solid buy for the money.

I am going keep tracking the issues in this TV and wait for the price to go down before I pull the trigger. After plunking down 3k on the panny just 4 years back, I really dont want to spend a lot of money and see the value go down in half in like an year
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post #286 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

To move the discussion back into technical/perceptual issues:

Is anybody able to compare the viewing angle of the 55" Samsung D8000 and 70" Sharp?

yes, about the same. Maybe a slight edge to Samsung. Sasmung has a glossier screen.

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post #287 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

yes, about the same. Maybe a slight edge to Samsung. Sasmung has a glossier screen.

Any noticeable motion blur from either while watching live sports? The Samsung 8000 series sets are amazing looking and if the Sharp 70" even comes close we have a win.
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post #288 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by anismo View Post

Well put. I am torn between PQ (Couple of my friends have samsung 8000s) and Size. I went to local frys and saw the Sharp and in spite it being not properly calibrated, I thought it was pretty good. While I definitely understand that this is not going to have all bells and whistles of a flagship TV, I do want to make sure that it doesn't have any glaring issues. As long as it has good PQ for 1080p/i res (I dont care much for SD picture anymore) it looks like a solid buy for the money.

I am going keep tracking the issues in this TV and wait for the price to go down before I pull the trigger. After plunking down 3k on the panny just 4 years back, I really dont want to spend a lot of money and see the value go down in half in like an year

It's only been in my house for about 10 days. But there are no real issues so far for me. I have only seen this years Samsungs instore so I would not venture a comparison between the sets. Chris on the other hand has had real hands on time with both, so I would tend to follow what he said on the subject.

The Samsung D8000 is a damn good looking TV, no doubt about it. The only tiny little thing I did notice about them that I wasn't so sure about. Was that because of that skinny bezzel, it gives the almost optical illusion of being smaller than it is. And even that's more a product of what my eyes are used to seeing than it is a reality.
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post #289 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Duffinator View Post

Any noticeable motion blur from either while watching live sports? The Samsung 8000 series sets are amazing looking and if the Sharp 70" even comes close we have a win.

Did not get a chance to watch sports. However while testing motion on the sets, they where close.

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post #290 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockaway1836 View Post

It's been a couple of years since I have taken an eye exam, but the last time I did, I could read the 20-10 line without a problem.

Now, it should also be said that when I stand up in the living room I am looking down on the Samsung, when I stand up in the garage I am still looking right at the Sharp. Which takes me back to Chad's review. I think he said that if you were to mount it high on a wall, he would recomend a tilt mount.

I don't want to question your visual acuity at all. But that said, high visual acuity and perceptions of contrast are at best loosely related. Eye charts are intentionally black on white (or reversed in the electronic ones) and not designed to measure contrast sensitivity.

I think Chad's review pretty much backs up what I had to say: there is a drop off in off-axis contrast that is noticeable. Chad might perceive this as acceptable (I believe he does) and Rogo might perceive it as unacceptable (right now, that's true, but I'm willing to go back and look again with a tape measure and a longer session). But our differences of opinion on how problematic it is should not confuse our agreement that the issue is real.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #291 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Your post is a series of lies, half truths, bits of misinformation, insult, etc.

I think my objectivity here is pretty well understood.

I never called anyone a liar in this thread.

For whatever it's worth, I have a very old Sharp LCD (7 years?) in my exercise room. I cited my plasmas annoying reflections as its "thing that makes me most want to replace it". It's not otherwise flawless, but it certainly loses 0% of its perceived contrast off axis and shows no change in contrast as you move slightly from one spot to another. I defy anyone with the Sharp 70 inch LCD to claim that it loses 0% of its perceived contrast off axis (if they do claim that, they are just wrong). I defy them to also claim you can move your head a bit while off axis and not notice a subtle change.

Regardless, I think my mini review was actually positive, despite including a list of serious issues that will probably preclude me from owning one.

Feel free to resume insulting me and stating things that aren't true. I will leave you to that.

I am new to LCD/LED, flat screens. Been using SONY SXRD in both the bedroom and dining rooms (70" in dining, 60" in bedroom). Just switched to the SHARP 70" for the bed room. It has a PHENOMINAL PICTURE!. I certainly have no issue in the area the above poster mentions here: "I defy them to also claim you can move your head a bit while off axis and not notice a subtle change. Last night tried moving my head a good six inches, left, and right from my seated position, (actually lying on the bed), from a distance of apprx 14 feet, with ZERO degradation of contrast, or any other paramater one chooses to mention. However when I get of the bed and walk past the edge of the set, a few feet, and in close proximity to the set,than you do loose a dramatic amount of contrast.
ONLY real issue i have with this set, is when there is a horizontal scan, with a light colored back ground, i see a temporary lack of focus, or "blotchyness" (my word - (almost like vertical banding shadows, that older front projetion lcd units typically had) on the light colored part of the picture, (clouds in an out door scene, or a light blue sky, etc. Not sure if this is due to the unit being a full array dimiing unit as opposed to a local diming unit(please forgive me if i am not using the proper terms, again i am new to LCD/LED's). Other than this issue, this set has a very clean, three dimensional, look to it with lots of pop, and a razor sharp (No pun)image.
CHEERS, TOM
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post #292 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MRJAZZZ View Post

ONLY real issue i have with this set, is when there is a horizontal scan, with a light colored back ground, i see a temporary lack of focus, or "blotchyness" (my word - (almost like vertical banding shadows, that older front projetion lcd units typically had) on the light colored part of the picture, (clouds in an out door scene, or a light blue sky, etc.

I believe what you are describing is what Chad referred in his review as DSE or dirty screen effect.

To me as well DSE is the primary defect with this set.

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post #293 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 04:43 PM
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SO, what improvements would one hope to gain, with the newer, more expensive model that has "LOCAL DIMING' versus full panel diming of the entry level 70" SHARP?

CHEERS, TC
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post #294 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 06:19 PM
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I don't want to question your visual acuity at all. But that said, high visual acuity and perceptions of contrast are at best loosely related. Eye charts are intentionally black on white (or reversed in the electronic ones) and not designed to measure contrast sensitivity.

I think Chad's review pretty much backs up what I had to say: there is a drop off in off-axis contrast that is noticeable. Chad might perceive this as acceptable (I believe he does) and Rogo might perceive it as unacceptable (right now, that's true, but I'm willing to go back and look again with a tape measure and a longer session). But our differences of opinion on how problematic it is should not confuse our agreement that the issue is real.

Personally, I don't consider it acceptable, except in the context that it's no different from the recent Sammys and Sonys. In other words, I hate it, but it's one of the things you are going to have to live with if you want most brands of LED LCD.
My wife would consider it acceptable, though.

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post #295 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 07:09 PM
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Personally, I don't consider it acceptable, except in the context that it's no different from the recent Sammys and Sonys. In other words, I hate it, but it's one of the things you are going to have to live with if you want most brands of LED LCD.
My wife would consider it acceptable, though.

With that in mind are there any reasonably priced plasma sets on the horizon larger than 65". Operative word there is reasonably priced. I know about the $25K and $50K jumbo screens. A 70" would be the perfect size in my setup.
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post #296 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 07:14 PM
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With that in mind are there any reasonably priced plasma sets on the horizon larger than 65". Operative word there is reasonably priced. I know about the $25K and $50K jumbo screens. A 70" would be the perfect size in my setup.

I don't know of any, unfortunately.

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post #297 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 07:17 PM
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I don't know of any, unfortunately.

Bummer. A 65" is 25% larger than my 58" Panny plasma and 70" is 45% larger. Larger is better in my book but I want to move forward in PQ from my current set. Thanks for all the great advice you provide.
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Personally, I don't consider it acceptable, except in the context that it's no different from the recent Sammys and Sonys. In other words, I hate it, but it's one of the things you are going to have to live with if you want most brands of LED LCD.
My wife would consider it acceptable, though.

Exactly, I will be sitting dead center and my wife would never notice the difference with her off axis viewing. She doesn't even notice the difference between BR and DVD.
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post #299 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Duffinator View Post

Bummer. A 65" is 25% larger than my 58" Panny plasma and 70" is 45% larger. Larger is better in my book but I want to move forward in PQ from my current set. Thanks for all the great advice you provide.

Yep, no bigger plasma this year. I wonder what next year will bring. If the Panasonic 85" takes a nice price drop, by lets say 60%, I'm in !

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post #300 of 3824 Old 04-12-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I don't want to question your visual acuity at all. But that said, high visual acuity and perceptions of contrast are at best loosely related. Eye charts are intentionally black on white (or reversed in the electronic ones) and not designed to measure contrast sensitivity.

I think Chad's review pretty much backs up what I had to say: there is a drop off in off-axis contrast that is noticeable. Chad might perceive this as acceptable (I believe he does) and Rogo might perceive it as unacceptable (right now, that's true, but I'm willing to go back and look again with a tape measure and a longer session). But our differences of opinion on how problematic it is should not confuse our agreement that the issue is real.

Well, all I can tell you is that if I saw it I would say so. And just for the hell of it I just took this quick little test. I scored 10 out of 10 in the time allowed.

http://colorvisiontesting.com/ishihara.htm

There is one vieing angle I have yet to try though. And that would be laying or sitting on the floor looking up. I will let you know what I see then. That is if I can get back up off the floor.
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