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post #1591 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

You misunderstand. Of course it does, but perhaps you are always looking for something "wrong".

I'm saying that instead of having back light so high at 60 or 70, lower it to increase black level (make it darker) and increase brightness accordingly to establish the black level for dark detail to be visible.

Jay1 apparently understood what I meant based on his response.

But it's probably all in interpretation. No matter how I would say it some people would have to find fault.

No, I do understand. Lowering backlight will make black levels darker (MLL), which is good. Raising brightness (also called the black-level setting, not to be confused with the display's actual black level or MLL) will not be an effective substitute for making the overall image bright enough for the poster's viewing conditions. If he was to lower backlight greatly and then raise brightness a lot to keep the overall picture bright enough, whites would remain dim while blacks would become completely washed out and gray. The brightness control does not affect overall luminance and therefore will not affect the peak white (100% white) output of the TV. Contrast and backlight will.

In other words, if contrast and backlight are too low for the user's viewing conditions/preferences, no amount of raising brightness will be able to compensate for that.

*MLL means minimum luminance level, measured in fL or cd/m^2
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post #1592 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 09:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

You misunderstand. Of course it does, but perhaps you are always looking for something "wrong".

I'm saying that instead of having back light so high at 60 or 70, lower it to increase black level (make it darker) and increase brightness accordingly to establish the black level for dark detail to be visible.

Jay1 apparently understood what I meant based on his response.

But it's probably all in interpretation. No matter how I would say it some people would have to find fault.

I understood what you mean. I've been reading through the thread for several weeks now to decide what model TV I want to buy. You've helped me understand quite a few things. But I didn't want to get in between all this stuff with the plasma guy. I'm thinking of getting a 47LK520. The price is pretty good right now.
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post #1593 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 09:27 PM
 
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^ ^ ^ Thanks for your vote of confidence.

@ Plasma. . . no you don't understand that I was covering only one aspect of his setting. Which was. .. . back light was a bit too high for getting the best black level . . . period.

But apparently, here we go again.

Besides, he has Spears & Munsil. He will likely figure it out. He's been here since 2002.
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post #1594 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

no you don't understand that I was covering only one aspect of his setting. Which was. .. . back light was a bit too high for getting the best black level . . . period.

I agree with that part.

"Always increase brightness if you have to rather than back light."

This statement clearly shows you don't the difference between the two controls nor how they affect the overall brightness of the picture. The fact that others are agreeing with you just means they have the same flawed logic/understanding.
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post #1595 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 09:48 PM
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I bought a 42lk520 from newegg on cyber Monday had no idea about panel lottery got an "y" in the product code. Great Isp panel! Wanted a tv for my man cave figured i'd get the same thing
another 42lk520. This one too was an "Y". But alot of back light bleed. Had a replacement sent same problem but worse. This too was "Y"
Got a refund. Figured I would get an 42lk450 this time from a local bb that had a good price online. Dont want to play the panel lottery with amazon. Well they had 2 "Y" lk450. Got it home and back light bleed is at
a min. Finally I hope. I better not count my chicks before they hatch. Ok im done just wanted to share my horror experience tring to get two good tvs shipped from cal to Ohio. Ill just pay the freaking tax next time.
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post #1596 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 10:00 PM
 
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Well, apparently myself, and a few others helped many owners in the 2010 xxLD550,xxLD520,xxLD650 I started back then. My information was and is not wrong, I understand all the relationships between maximum luminance level, contrast, brightness and establishing these parameters for the ambient light levels in a room.

What you consider wrong apparently is if ALL the information on it is not given at one time.

Going back to the OP. His back light at 70 is too high to get any decent black level on this line of TVs that already has mediocre black level inherent in the panel. As I pointed out, upper 30s to lower 40s usually is adequate and also keeps excess light from the CCFl back light form compromising best black level. Of course you would need to decide if any given starting back light level is enough for viewing conditions.


What I have seen is often people play with back light, brightness and contrast back and forth without realizing the relationships of them. The proper procedure is to set backlight to as low a level as possible since , as I said, LCD panels leaklight. . .. so the higher you have back light the worse black level will be. By increasing brightness I did not mean increase it to obtain maximum brigthness, but to set it using test black and BTB test patters to get the best shadow detail in actual program material. And then, of course , set contrast to the proper point in the 16 -235 range for maximum white level.

That is all.. . . you just seem to be out of sorts yet with your C6 issues and want to nit pick. Give it a rest. Besides. You said yesterday:


Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Sorry about that; I got carried away and forgot this is an owners thread and not the display calibration sub-forum. Anyway, I'm getting my set professionally calibrated so that I once and for all know it is set properly. And I will keep technical discussions out of this thread in the future.

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post #1597 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obsolete1202 View Post

I bought a 42lk520 from newegg on cyber Monday had no idea about panel lottery got an "y" in the product code. Great Isp panel! Wanted a tv for my man cave figured i'd get the same thing
another 42lk520. This one too was an "Y". But alot of back light bleed. Had a replacement sent same problem but worse. This too was "Y"
Got a refund. Figured I would get an 42lk450 this time from a local bb that had a good price online. Dont want to play the panel lottery with amazon. Well they had 2 "Y" lk450. Got it home and back light bleed is at
a min. Finally I hope. I better not count my chicks before they hatch. Ok im done just wanted to share my horror experience tring to get two good tvs shipped from cal to Ohio. Ill just pay the freaking tax next time.

Well, glad you found 2 "good" ones!

It can get frustrating trying to find an acceptable couple of TVs. I went through that in 2010. Happy viewing!
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post #1598 of 2833 Old 01-19-2012, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Well, apparently myself, and a few others helped many owners in the 2010 xxLD550,xxLD520,xxLD650 I started back then. My information was and is not wrong, I understand all the relationships between maximum luminance level, contrast, brightness and establishing these parameters for the ambient light levels in a room.

What you consider wrong apparently is if ALL the information on it is not given at one time.

Going back to the OP. His back light at 70 is too high to get any decent black level on this line of TVs that already has mediocre black level inherent in the panel. As I pointed out, upper 30s to lower 40s usually is adequate and also keeps excess light from the CCFl back light form compromising best black level. Of course you would need to decide if any given starting back light level is enough for viewing conditions.


What I have seen is often people play with back light, brightness and contrast back and forth without realizing the relationships of them. The proper procedure is to set backlight to as low a level as possible since , as I said, LCD panels leaklight. . .. so the higher you have back light the worse black level will be. By increasing brightness I did not mean increase it to obtain maximum brigthness, but to set it using test black and BTB test patters to get the best shadow detail in actual program material. And then, of course , set contrast to the proper point in the 16 -235 range for maximum white level.

I agree with this but your original post was worded quite differently, which is why I offered my explanation of why raising brightness cannot compensate for lowering backlight.

I wouldn't consider that too technical for this thread since each viewing environment is different and each person is different in terms how bright they feel the overall image should be. Backlight and contrast basically do the same thing to overall image brightness but 'brightness' only affects shadow detail.
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post #1599 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 04:22 AM
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Alright, adjusted settings using S&M with the light on to get the best picture 99% of the time for my living room conditions.

Cinema (User)

Energy Saving Off


Backlight 36
Contrast 77
Brightness 53
Sharpness 59
Color 55
Tint 0
Color Temperature W45

Advanced Control

Dynamic Contrast Off
Dynamic Color Off
Clear White Off
Skin Color 0
Noise Reduction Off
Dig. Noise Red. Off
Gamma Low
Black Level Low
Eye Care Off
Color Gamut Standard

Personally I like the SOE so I have true motion cranked. Settings came in very close to what Phase700B posted a little back for the xxLD550. Transfered settings from the BD player to my cable HDMI input and everything still looks great. Very pleased with this tv
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post #1600 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 07:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Alright, adjusted settings using S&M with the light on to get the best picture 99% of the time for my living room conditions.


Personally I like the SOE so I have true motion cranked. Settings came in very close to what Phase700B posted a little back for the xxLD550. Transfered settings from the BD player to my cable HDMI input and everything still looks great. Very pleased with this tv

Glad to hear that using the lower back light and then using S&M helped you get a settings for your room lighting condition. Apologies if my original post about only setting back lighting was not easily understood. The intent was to communicate lower back light contributes to optimum black level on LCD panels. I just noticed that both the 55LK520 and 47LK520 are at really nice prices currently for TV with these features!
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post #1601 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 08:20 AM
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Yea didn't think it was going to be an issue when first buying a tv online. Im going to wait for the break in before I mess with the settings. My 42lk520 looks great now that I've used it for about 2 months. I just wish all tv companys would find a fix for back light bleed. I know plasma don't have that issue but didn't want one. I would not accept that on a $2500 tv. This tread really helped me make a choice on what one to get. Thanks everyone for the wealth of info.
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post #1602 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 08:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by obsolete1202 View Post

Yea didn't think it was going to be an issue when first buying a tv online. Im going to wait for the break in before I mess with the settings. My 42lk520 looks great now that I've used it for about 2 months. I just wish all tv companys would find a fix for back light bleed. I know plasma don't have that issue but didn't want one. I would not accept that on a $2500 tv. This tread really helped me make a choice on what one to get. Thanks everyone for the wealth of info.

I think most of us all agree about the value in the LK line LG offers. It seems no TV LCD, plasma, or DLP is issue free. It seems to amount to trying to find one with acceptable trade offs. This LG model line and the 2010 LD model line offered very decent picture quality and features for TVs in the $500 to $1,000 price range. And while some owners get one with light leakage or some banding, those are some inconvenient sorting issues when purchasing. Compared to some of th major "S" brand TVs, these models have better overall performance and less issues.

The back light bleed can be compensated for somewhat by keeping it as low as possible as well as keeping room lighting low. Indirect soft reflected light off of the wall and ceiling area behind the TV is the one best efforts you can make to help with better perceived black level and light bleed, because you can then usually turn back light down to mid 30s to low 40s for optimum black levels.
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post #1603 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post


I think most of us all agree about the value in the LK line LG offers. It seems no TV LCD, plasma, or DLP is issue free. It seems to amount to trying to find one with acceptable trade offs. This LG model line and the 2010 LD model line offered very decent picture quality and features for TVs in the $500 to $1,000 price range. And while some owners get one with light leakage or some banding, those are some inconvenient sorting issues when purchasing. Compared to some of th major "S" brand TVs, these models have better overall performance and less issues.

The back light bleed can be compensated for somewhat by keeping it as low as possible as well as keeping room lighting low. Indirect soft reflected light off of the wall and ceiling area behind the TV is the one best efforts you can make to help with better perceived black level and light bleed, because you can then usually turn back light down to mid 30s to low 40s for optimum black levels.

Yea I usually keep back light around 40 but don't have a light behind tv. Was thinking if a cheap small led battery powered light to put there. My wife thinks I nuts for being so picky about light bleed but after waiting 5 yrs to finally get an lcd I can't help it. If I paid $200 for them I wouldn't Bitch.
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post #1604 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 11:04 AM
 
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Depends on how much back light bleed there is. Is it uniform across the screen or somewhat of the flashlight effect in corners or edges of the screen? People have exchanged their TVs till they got one with the least leakage. Also, an LED light may not be enough light to give the amount of light needed for adequate "bias" lighting. Although some have used the LED or incandescent rope lighting. The small, 15 watt spiral type compact florescent light in warm warm white is usually best for a generic bias light behind the TV and has worked well for many owners. Many are surprised at the improvement to room lighting and picture quality. Also a great mood light.

And, with you there on waiting to get a nice LCD. Especially of that size. And with you there about the wife thinking crazy things about being discerning about details.
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post #1605 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

The small, 15 watt spiral type compact florescent light in warm warm white is usually best for a generic bias light behind the TV and has worked well for many owners.

You mean one rated at 6500K with a high CRI, right?
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post #1606 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 12:08 PM
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for those complaining about backlight bleed, is it uniform across the whole screen or at the edges or corners of the screen (flash-lighting)?
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post #1607 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Glad to hear that using the lower back light and then using S&M helped you get a settings for your room lighting condition. Apologies if my original post about only setting back lighting was not easily understood. The intent was to communicate lower back light contributes to optimum black level on LCD panels. I just noticed that both the 55LK520 and 47LK520 are at really nice prices currently for TV with these features!

What I discovered when calibrating my settings was that I couldn't get the brightness (pluge) scale to look right. The second light gray bar would never stand out vs the two dark bars that are supposed to blend in with black. I had to have backlight and brightness much higher to even see the second bar. I eventually played around with the gama setting, which came set as "medium". Changing it to "low" greatly elevated the overall light output of the tv, but made everything look washed out with the settings I had. I decided to play around with the brightness scale anyway, and voilÃ*! it worked properly with a distinct but barely visible bar and two bars I couldn't see at all. Blacks may not be absolute (I'm not stuck on that like some people), but at least all the detail will be properly displayed.
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post #1608 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 02:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

What I discovered when calibrating my settings was that I couldn't get the brightness (pluge) scale to look right. The second light gray bar would never stand out vs the two dark bars that are supposed to blend in with black. I had to have backlight and brightness much higher to even see the second bar. I eventually played around with the gama setting, which came set as "medium". Changing it to "low" greatly elevated the overall light output of the tv, but made everything look washed out with the settings I had. I decided to play around with the brightness scale anyway, and voilÃ*! it worked properly with a distinct but barely visible bar and two bars I couldn't see at all. Blacks may not be absolute (I'm not stuck on that like some people), but at least all the detail will be properly displayed.

Yes, LG has a default setting of Medium for gamma in the presets so it can throw things off. As you've found, it can be set up correctly and easily in Low. Anytime you reset a default Picture mode the presets will go to Medium. With so many picture settings, it's easy to miss one. You may have to go over the other settings now to make sure they all are ok. It's fun though!
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post #1609 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Depends on how much back light bleed there is. Is it uniform across the screen or somewhat of the flashlight effect in corners or edges of the screen? People have exchanged their TVs till they got one with the least leakage. Also, an LED light may not be enough light to give the amount of light needed for adequate "bias" lighting. Although some have used the LED or incandescent rope lighting. The small, 15 watt spiral type compact florescent light in warm warm white is usually best for a generic bias light behind the TV and has worked well for many owners. Many are surprised at the improvement to room lighting and picture quality. Also a great mood light.

And, with you there on waiting to get a nice LCD. Especially of that size. And with you there about the wife thinking crazy things about being discerning about details.

Yeah I've noticed on my LK530 that the perceived black level appears darker when there is sunlight or natural light shining behind the TV. Also when my TV screen is blank without any video input, the screen does look uniform in lighting with no clouding or flash-lighting. However the perceived blackness when viewed at center does start to fade to sort of a glow or (lighter) black level when viewing at a wider angle. I presume this is a characteristic of an LG S-IPS panel. Other than that this LK series TV excels in picture quality particularly in bright scenes with accurate colors.
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post #1610 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Depends on how much back light bleed there is. Is it uniform across the screen or somewhat of the flashlight effect in corners or edges of the screen? People have exchanged their TVs till they got one with the least leakage. Also, an LED light may not be enough light to give the amount of light needed for adequate "bias" lighting. Although some have used the LED or incandescent rope lighting. The small, 15 watt spiral type compact florescent light in warm warm white is usually best for a generic bias light behind the TV and has worked well for many owners. Many are surprised at the improvement to room lighting and picture quality. Also a great mood light.

And, with you there on waiting to get a nice LCD. Especially of that size. And with you there about the wife thinking crazy things about being discerning about details.

Well the 42lk450 i just got has a little bleed on left side edge about 4" or so from the top. The two lk520' s I sent back had three spots at the bottom edge. Its not in the corners. I know ALL lcd' s have some but getting one that's not noticeable when watching. The QC within all company's needs to be better. But its all about the $. And im just picky about details my wife just thinks its funny. But paying $500 and been waiting since lcd's price drop I feel its justified.
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post #1611 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by obsolete1202 View Post

Well the 42lk450 i just got has a little bleed on left side edge about 4" or so from the top. The two lk520' s I sent back had three spots at the bottom edge. Its not in the corners. I know ALL lcd' s have some but getting one that's not noticeable when watching. The QC within all company's needs to be better. But its all about the $. And im just picky about details my wife just thinks its funny. But paying $500 and been waiting since lcd's price drop I feel its justified.

I agree that there should be no light leakage and the screen should be pretty uniform. My 42LD550 has no drastic corner or edge leakage. If you stare at an IRE 70 field (medium light screen) I can see some slight shading from right to left and then in the center. But I really have to stare at it. With program material there is no visible effects. I think possibly LG and other brands crank out so many TVs that screen issues are sometimes overlooked it not extreme. Sometimes shipping and handling can contribute to screen issues as well as uneven pressure on the LCD panel from mounting it in the surrounding bezel.

But, yeah, after making LCD TVs and monitors for over 10 years in widespread use, it's reasonable to expect quality issues should be resolved by now.
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post #1612 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 05:07 PM
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Yea the two lk520's that I sent back I would like to think the united package smashers (ups) had something to do with the light bleed. The one that shipped from N.J. to Ohio didn't have any issues. But the other two came from Cal. Buying one from BB or some other local store gets them on a pallet with maybe ten and shipped in a truck are less likely to get damaged. Its paying taxes that's the trade off.
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post #1613 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 06:18 PM
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I had to take my 42LK520 back to BB today, I've had it ~8 weeks and this past week noticed a black smudge on the far left side of the screen about half way up. The smudge was not completely blacked out but more like someone took a greasy thumb and pressed it onto my screen.

I watched it for a few days and it moved from the far middle left side to the bottom just above the LG symbol and a little to the left. I was really lucky I bought the display during the holidays as it extended my return until Jan. 24, I did not know this until I called thinking I would have to wait for geek squad to come out.

I really like this TV and could have returned it for something different but I stayed with the 520, I'm hopeful whatever that smudge was I won't be seeing it again.

Again the smudge was black but light did pass through it and it stayed on the edge of the picture around the frame, it started on the left side in the middle and over a few days time settled above and to the left of the LG symbol.

Has anyone heard of such an anomaly or have any idea what it might have been?
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post #1614 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

You mean one rated at 6500K with a high CRI, right?

Not necessarily. I use a 15W CFL (rounded bulb) with a temp rating of 5500k, CRI not given, and the effect is amazing. If you read the purists, the wall color has a lot to do with the bias light, and of course, this has a lot to do with the "science" of visual perception. Temp rating is determined when the bulb is qc'd but can diminish over time depending on the coating of the bulb. If you have a wall behind the tv that is off-white, or another color, then experiment with different temps and see what you like. However, the only really effective bias light is one that is powered by an outlet, battery powered is not recommended.
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post #1615 of 2833 Old 01-20-2012, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

@ Plasma. . . no you don't understand that I was covering only one aspect of his setting. Which was. .. . back light was a bit too high for getting the best black level . . . period.

For the record, I understood and agree with what you wrote.

Carry on.
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post #1616 of 2833 Old 01-22-2012, 12:42 PM
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Bought the 47LK450 yesterday.

While, I love it so far, there seems to be a problem. Every 10-20 minutes or so, the screen will just flash to black for about a second and then come back on. The tv doesn't shut off or anything, it just goes black.

I've turned off the energy saver settings as well as simplink, but it's still doing it. I'd hate to have to go through the hassle of taking it back, but I've read through 20 pages of this thread and did a search and can't find anyone with the same problem.

Does anyone know what this means?

Thanks.
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post #1617 of 2833 Old 01-22-2012, 12:58 PM
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That's a new one to me. I'd give LG a call and see what they say. You're obviously under warranty so it may be a simple repair call to the house.
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post #1618 of 2833 Old 01-22-2012, 08:53 PM
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Otto, thanks.

I ended up biting the bullet and taking it back. Unfortunately the new one did the same thing. I rebooted the cable box, and it worked for a while. Then it started randomly showing Xfinity commercials at inopportune times. My cable box is the problem.

2 other notes:

1. Got the panel with the Y serial number and chevron pattern.

2. My Onkyo TX-SR705 had always had lip sync issues despite all my efforts to fix it (with help from this site). The new tv fixed them. I had no idea my old Vizio VX37L was the problem. So those with the Onkyo lip sync issue, maybe try your tv.
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post #1619 of 2833 Old 01-23-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DietDew View Post

Otto, thanks.

I ended up biting the bullet and taking it back. Unfortunately the new one did the same thing. I rebooted the cable box, and it worked for a while. Then it started randomly showing Xfinity commercials at inopportune times. My cable box is the problem.

2 other notes:

1. Got the panel with the Y serial number and chevron pattern.

2. My Onkyo TX-SR705 had always had lip sync issues despite all my efforts to fix it (with help from this site). The new tv fixed them. I had no idea my old Vizio VX37L was the problem. So those with the Onkyo lip sync issue, maybe try your tv.

Glad it was your cable box and not the new tv, and contrats on getting a set with the S-IPS panel.

Vizios are problematic. I won one last year is a raffle and immediately donated it to a shelter. I wouldn't put one in my garage, but that's me.
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post #1620 of 2833 Old 01-24-2012, 06:51 AM
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Hey Guys.

I purchased a 42lk520 around Christmas. I wanted a better picture and I found this site. However I noticed that mainly the picture ISF settings are for cinema mode or OTA Cable. Is their a way that someone can give me some video game settings? I am a heavy gamer and I just wanted to know is there a way to get better picture settings from a gaming device. I have a ps3.

Thanks
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