240hz really worth it? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 05-03-2011, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Long time lurker, first time poster, could really use your help!

So im in the market for a new 55" LED-LCD TV...been going back and forth between samsung and sony but seems like Samsung wins by a narrow margin.

With this in mind, it seems that the 2011 Samsung models are similar to the 2010 models in all areas except 3D, where the 2011 models have significant improvements.

The best deal I've found so far is the UN55C7000 from Amazon for $1899 and since I am in Cali, thats the final price...BUT what im struggling with is whether i should settle for an older 3d technology and 240hz or upgrade the 3d technology and go with a 2011 model but 120hz. (like the D6500 that is selling for $1959 on amazon)

so question is...is 240hz really worth it???

the tv will mainly be used for casual tv shows, a lot of movies (including action movies), and very little gaming...

Appreciate all the help!

-KJ
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post #2 of 18 Old 05-03-2011, 10:03 PM
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Is it worth it? Nope!
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post #3 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezicartel View Post

Long time lurker, first time poster, could really use your help!

So im in the market for a new 55" LED-LCD TV...been going back and forth between samsung and sony but seems like Samsung wins by a narrow margin.

With this in mind, it seems that the 2011 Samsung models are similar to the 2010 models in all areas except 3D, where the 2011 models have significant improvements.

The best deal I've found so far is the UN55C7000 from Amazon for $1899 and since I am in Cali, thats the final price...BUT what im struggling with is whether i should settle for an older 3d technology and 240hz or upgrade the 3d technology and go with a 2011 model but 120hz. (like the D6500 that is selling for $1959 on amazon)

so question is...is 240hz really worth it???

the tv will mainly be used for casual tv shows, a lot of movies (including action movies), and very little gaming...

Appreciate all the help!

-KJ

There is one (very) good reason to get 240Hz model. It automatically guaranties that LCD panel will have very fast response time, which usually means high quality LCD panel in general.

Boky
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post #4 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 01:09 AM
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Interpolation or known as 120/240hz does not give a LCD screen a better response rate, this technology is in another category for its technology.
Here's a post i wrote to describe its technology and its differences.

600hz from plasma and 120-240 hz from LCD are two different technology's, i will explain each as best i can.

LCD has not been perfected and most probably will never be so with problems like response rate, no matter what anyone tells you the LCD response rate affects the image performance in regards to motion accuracy and clarity.
Movies are only recorded and displayed in 24 fps which is the global specific setting for the movie and film industry but our eyes are able to see up to 60-100, so what the LCD manufacturers have done is created a type of engine that generates prediction frames between real frames.
What this does is gives the picture in movies a more clear and smooth image, 120hz inserts 1 frame with every real frame (24 increased to 48) and 240hz adds 3 frames with every real frame (24 increased to 96).
When you ask 120hz vs 240hz it really comes down to how well the engine has been done and how well the prediction frames are generated (also known as interpolation), 120hz could look better than 240hz but 240hz tends to have a lower error rate but you should always let your eyes decide as different companies will have a different effect.

With plasmas its a totally different road, 600hz is the standard spec with current plasma's today but really this is called the sub field drive and what this does is repeats every image 10 times (60hz x 10 = 600), the effect from this gives the plasma a super fast response time of 0.001ms which removes any ghosting that results from high response time and this technology can only be achieved with plasma's.
So with the response time at instant this gives the best clarity with every frame but still not perfect, companies like Panasonic have its own interpolation software called intelligent frame creation which is essentially 120hz adding 1 predicted frame with every real frame.
Because the response time is already so good the interpolation engine does not need to be as advanced as LCD does and produces a brilliant sharp and clear picture which is hard to beat by any technology.

Hope this clears things up
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post #5 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by [DANGERDAN] View Post

Interpolation or known as 120/240hz does not give a LCD screen a better response rate, this technology is in another category for its technology.
Here's a post i wrote to describe its technology and its differences.

600hz from plasma and 120-240 hz from LCD are two different technology's, i will explain each as best i can.

LCD has not been perfected and most probably will never be so with problems like response rate, no matter what anyone tells you the LCD response rate affects the image performance in regards to motion accuracy and clarity.
Movies are only recorded and displayed in 24 fps which is the global specific setting for the movie and film industry but our eyes are able to see up to 60-100, so what the LCD manufacturers have done is created a type of engine that generates prediction frames between real frames.
What this does is gives the picture in movies a more clear and smooth image, 120hz inserts 1 frame with every real frame (24 increased to 48) and 240hz adds 3 frames with every real frame (24 increased to 96).
When you ask 120hz vs 240hz it really comes down to how well the engine has been done and how well the prediction frames are generated (also known as interpolation), 120hz could look better than 240hz but 240hz tends to have a lower error rate but you should always let your eyes decide as different companies will have a different effect.

With plasmas its a totally different road, 600hz is the standard spec with current plasma's today but really this is called the sub field drive and what this does is repeats every image 10 times (60hz x 10 = 600), the effect from this gives the plasma a super fast response time of 0.001ms which removes any ghosting that results from high response time and this technology can only be achieved with plasma's.
So with the response time at instant this gives the best clarity with every frame but still not perfect, companies like Panasonic have its own interpolation software called intelligent frame creation which is essentially 120hz adding 1 predicted frame with every real frame.
Because the response time is already so good the interpolation engine does not need to be as advanced as LCD does and produces a brilliant sharp and clear picture which is hard to beat by any technology.

Hope this clears things up

It does not.

What you tried (but failed) to explain is interpolation. Interpolation being turned ON or OFF will not affect how many frames are sent to the LCD panel within a period of time. If the interpolation is OFF -> frames will be repeated. If the interpolation is ON -> the frame interpolation algorithm and surrounding hardware (fast memory) will receive a frame and store the same, it will then receive the second frame, and then calculate in-between-interpolated frame (hence the unavoidable lag between sound processing, and picture processing -> there's another reason for the lag, but more on that if there's an interest from other members).

240Hz TV's charge and discharge LCD panel pixels from white(ON) ->black(OFF) ->white(ON) much faster than 120Hz TV sets -> hence the need for very fast LCD panel response time -> which means better quality panels in general.

240Hz TV sets will always display constant number of full pictures (frames) IRELEVANT of interpolation being switched ON or OFF. LCD panels are "progressive" in nature, they can not display interlaced material - there's no picture tube electron beam to do the scanning line-by-line, so the T-CON processor and adjacent memory chips work very hard to generate full frames that are sent to LCD panel. This puts additional stress on T-CON PCB layout and power supply -> both have to be of very low noise nature to allow for fast rise / fall times, so this is ANOTHER benefit of 240Hz sets -> good engineering and high quality (fast) IC's / memory.

Once again, interpolation and refresh rates are not related in any way, hopefully you understand that now...

Boky
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post #6 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

It does not.

What you tried (but failed) to explain is interpolation. Interpolation being turned ON or OFF will not affect how many frames are sent to the LCD panel within a period of time. If the interpolation is OFF -> frames will be repeated. If the interpolation is ON -> the frame interpolation algorithm and surrounding hardware (fast memory) will receive a frame and store the same, it will then receive the second frame, and then calculate in-between-interpolated frame (hence the unavoidable lag between sound processing, and picture processing -> there's another reason for the lag, but more on that if there's an interest from other members).

240Hz TV's charge and discharge LCD panel pixels from white(ON) ->black(OFF) ->white(ON) much faster than 120Hz TV sets -> hence the need for very fast LCD panel response time -> which means better quality panels in general.

240Hz TV sets will always display constant number of full pictures (frames) IRELEVANT of interpolation being switched ON or OFF. LCD panels are "progressive" in nature, they can not display interlaced material - there's no picture tube electron beam to do the scanning line-by-line, so the T-CON processor and adjacent memory chips work very hard to generate full frames that are sent to LCD panel. This puts additional stress on T-CON PCB layout and power supply -> both have to be of very low noise nature to allow for fast rise / fall times, so this is ANOTHER benefit of 240Hz sets -> good engineering and high quality (fast) IC's / memory.

Once again, interpolation and refresh rates are not related in any way, hopefully you understand that now...

Boky

good explanation. what doesnt help matters is when Samsung calls their frame interpolation 'Auto Motion Plus 240 Hz'
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post #7 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 09:41 AM
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No, 240hz is not worth a thing in my opinion. I currently own LCD tvs capable of 60hz, 120hz, and 240hz. The hz number attached to these TVs has nothing to do with my opinion of each of them.

What is far more important when evaluating TVs in my opinion is the type of panel they use. Get a TV that uses an IPS panel and you'll have the most important feature covered.

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post #8 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 09:51 AM
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I have the un55c8000. You can change the auto motion plus to be anywhere from 0-10. 10 being 240hz. I keep mine at 0-1 depending on what I am watching. It keeps things looking like a movie and not a soap opera.
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post #9 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I have the un55c8000. You can change the auto motion plus to be anywhere from 0-10. 10 being 240hz. I keep mine at 0-1 depending on what I am watching. It keeps things looking like a movie and not a soap opera.

not correct. the tv is always showing 240 Hz. the AMP settings change the number of interpolated frames and is completely separate from 240 Hz
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post #10 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 10:19 AM
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So what does the judder and blur do?
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post #11 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 10:23 AM
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the judder setting adds frames to film sources and the blur setting adds frames to video sources

http://support-us.samsung.com/cyber/...U1F&idx=339544
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post #12 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 10:35 AM
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The noticeable difference is between 60hz and 120hz. After that no one can see the difference.
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post #13 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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appreciate the feedback guys... seems like the 120hz would be the better deal, but i just found out that US Appliance is selling the D8000 for $2550 OTD and that price includes shipping, no tax, a 3d starter kit, and the BD-D5500 blu ray player....ahhhh decisions decisions!
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post #14 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 11:36 AM
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Here is an easy read: HomeEntertainment 240Hz and beyond http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz

Fake frames and real frames, the movie ''The Hobbit'' is shot with 48fs.
48fs over 24fs improvements according to moviedirector Peter Jackson:''image has hugely enhanced clarity and smoothness, shooting and projecting at 48fs does a lot to get rid of blur and judder (24fs=there is often quite a lot of blur in each frame, during fast movements, and if the camera is moving around quickly, the image can judder or ''strobe'').
48fs looks much more lifelike, and its much easyer to watch, especially in 3-D.'' https://www.facebook.com/notes/peter...50222861171558

In 5/10 years or so, 48fs might have replaced 24fs - 24fs has been the standard since the 1920s - and all bluray movies might be 48fs.
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post #15 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

It does not….

What you tried (but failed) to explain is interpolation. Interpolation being turned ON or OFF will not affect how many frames are sent to the LCD panel within a period of time. If the interpolation is OFF -> frames will be repeated. If the interpolation is ON -> the frame interpolation algorithm and surrounding hardware (fast memory) will receive a frame and store the same, it will then receive the second frame, and then calculate in-between-interpolated frame (hence the unavoidable lag between sound processing, and picture processing -> there’s another reason for the lag, but more on that if there’s an interest from other members…).
240Hz TV's charge and discharge LCD panel pixels from white(ON) ->black(OFF) ->white(ON) much faster than 120Hz TV sets -> hence the need for very fast LCD panel response time -> which means better quality panels in general.

240Hz TV sets will always display constant number of full pictures (frames) IRELEVANT of interpolation being switched ON or OFF. LCD panels are "progressive" in nature, they can not display interlaced material - there's no picture tube electron beam to do the scanning line-by-line, so the T-CON processor and adjacent memory chips work very hard to generate full frames that are sent to LCD panel. This puts additional stress on T-CON PCB layout and power supply -> both have to be of very low noise nature to allow for fast rise / fall times, so this is ANOTHER benefit of 240Hz sets -> good engineering and high quality (fast) IC’s / memory.

Once again, interpolation and refresh rates are not related in any way, hopefully you understand that now...

Boky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_interpolation

My theory of interpolation is solid, this link clearly states that the processors on LCD sets recreate images from real ones and double or tripple frame rate.
You have some good understanding about LCD hardware technology but i don't think anything i said was incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

If the interpolation is OFF -> frames will be repeated. If the interpolation is ON -> the frame interpolation algorithm and surrounding hardware (fast memory) will receive a frame and store the same, it will then receive the second frame, and then calculate in-between-interpolated frame
Boky

You clearly state that with interpolation off (120/240hz) that the frames are repeated and yes this is true because of the pulldown effect from having to fit a uneven 24 frames into 60 and with it on it will take a single frame store it then take the second frame and compare it to the first frame to correctly calculate and create a prediction frame and place it in between those two frames and then process it to display on the screen. Because of this process this creates input lag or a delay in the response for it to be displayed on the screen.

No your right interpolation doesn't affect the refresh rate at all and i don't think i said that it ever did, say a set has 240hz they are not implying a actual 240 hz they just use this term to draw attention to customers and categorise its technology with a name. But the frames within a set are modified or polated, a 60hz rated with 240hz will only be able to reproduce 60hz maximum.
Computers are able to use interpolation without any extra hardware to be installed, its this that proves that screens are not needed to be more than 60hz to have this judder free technology.
http://www.tested.com/news/how-to-en...vie-files/329/

It may well be that the technology has just improved on newer sets which have 240hz but there may very well be 120hz sets that can have better response time than 240hz ( iv seen and tested this ).
Remember the lag created from 120/240hz technology is not referred to as response time, response time is a term used for measuring the response for a pixel to change from one state to another. The lag from the interpolation is called input lag and input lag increases from 120 to 240hz and is unavoidable.

If these screens were true 120hz/240hz refresh rates this would give a noticeable improvement in response time just like with plasma's 600hz as they excite each subpixel 10 times per frame to make sure the transition between the pixel state of change is small thus low response time. But i don't believe LCD's do, LCD's use their interpolation to make up for the bad response time that LCD's give off. LCD manufacturers have been trying to push the response times of these displays, they are still nowhere close to producing something that plasma technology can and its this that they introduced Interpolation to try and recover some clarity from the already bad ghosting and image blurring. The slow response time is still there and is unavoidable when trying to play games, as the repeated frames cause the screen to hold the frames longer, you shouldn't run games with 120/240hz as it is already running at a high frame rate and would only make the image and gameplay worse.

Your theory that LCD response time would be better when the refresh rate is increased from 120hz to 240hz but like i said i do not believe that its actually pushing past 60, if you can prove that this technology is making the actual refresh rate increase then i would be interested to see this as it would explain a better response time.
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post #16 of 18 Old 05-04-2011, 07:43 PM
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If the hobbit is being shot in 48fps...then will my blu ray and tv become unable to play those blu rays when they come out in the best way possible since there is only a setting for 24fps on my blu ray player and if that is not on then it displays in 60fps?
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post #17 of 18 Old 05-05-2011, 03:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

The noticeable difference is between 60hz and 120hz. After that no one can see the difference.

False!
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post #18 of 18 Old 05-05-2011, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

If the hobbit is being shot in 48fps...then will my blu ray and tv become unable to play those blu rays when they come out in the best way possible since there is only a setting for 24fps on my blu ray player and if that is not on then it displays in 60fps?

We might never see 48fs blurays and if we do it will be years from now.
Gary McCoy wrote a post on 48fs requirements http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...57&postcount=7.
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