Motionflow XR 240/480/960 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 06-26-2011, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Can somebody explain to me the difference between these versions of Motionflow?

From my understanding sets marked with XR 240 have a native refresh of 120Hz and utilize backlight strobing to arrive at 240. It would appear that XR 480 and XR 960 use 240Hz native refresh panels, but I'm wondering how they arrive at the 480/960 numbers ( giving Sony the benefit of the doubt, and assuming they aren't just some arbitrary figures used for marketing). Is it backlight scanning + BFI for both versions? Is the "perceived" 960 on the HX929 something to do with the LED backlight rather than the edge light on the HX820/729?

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post #2 of 19 Old 06-26-2011, 11:06 PM
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I have not found a technical "white paper" type explanation for your question, but here is my understanding.

240 motion flow means 120 panel.
480 motion flow means 240 panel.
960 motion flow means 240 panel + backlight strobing.

What is unclear to me is just how/when the switch between 5:5 frame repeating, frame interpolation and back light strobing takes place.

Having seen 240 Motion flow on the ex723 and 960 motion flow on the hx929, there are some dramatic differences.

- Clear & Clear Plus (which I believe is panel strobing) offers a brighter image on the hx929 than the ex723. So there is something the hx929 is doing better.

- Standard motion flow on the hx929 has little or no observable SOE, while standard on the ex723 had moments of SOE but still at a reduced frequency compared to motion flow on older displays.

- When gaming with a FPS game like FallOut, to avoid shudders during image panning, I had to run Smooth on the ex723, while I can run standard on the hx929. So the hx929 seems to better handle such artifacts even on the low setting.

- Motion Flow on the hx929 presenting Blu-Ray 3D offered a smooth image while there were some subtle 3:2 type pulldown shudders on the ex723 during vertical and horizontal pans. Neither display allows motion flow with a 3D side-by-side source signal.

- Motion flow quality and artifacts in general... if there are other image quality benefits to the 960 motion flow over 240 on the ex723, it's hard to see except for what I mentioned above.

In addition to the Motion Flow settings Clear, Clear Plus, Standard and Smooth, there is also Cinemotion Auto 1 and Auto 2. This is where I think you can dictate 5:5 frame repeating versus Frame interpolation being applied. However, I still have not seen a difference between the two settings on content I have tested. I have probably not used the best test content to demonstrate the difference. I have my hx929 set to Auto 2 and never change it.

Is 960 motion flow better than 240/480? IMHO, 960 on the hx929 is better than 240 on the ex723. Perhaps 480 is more like 960 than 240, as far as any of the observations I noted above. I don't know.

One thing I should mention and it's important to remember. There can be a dramatic difference in Motion Flow performance between RETAIL mode and HOME mode. When I 1st saw the hx929 on display at a Magnolia store, there were serious motion flow artifacts during the Avatar Blu-Ray. I asked a Sony contact and he said the artifacts would go away if the display was switched to HOME mode. He was correct. Honestly I don't know why this is the case and it does not make sense to me because the artifacts were apparent to my eye.
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post #3 of 19 Old 06-28-2011, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. it's very strange to me that Sony would basically leave us in the dark about how exactly each one works and the differences between each version of motionflow.

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post #4 of 19 Old 06-28-2011, 06:29 AM
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I think most average consumers could care less that's probably why. Samsung does it as well, their D8000 is 240Hz with clear motion rate 960. http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/...YFXZA-features
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post #5 of 19 Old 05-14-2012, 04:16 PM
 
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Sorry to necro, but I can confirm since I had an EX720 and now an HX850, that Bytehoven is definitely correct! Motionflow stank on the EX720 but it's great on the HX850!
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post #6 of 19 Old 05-14-2012, 04:28 PM
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This is on the Sony Uk site.

http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/lcd-televi.../motionflow-xr

Not hugely detailed but gives some idea.

Also ignore the slight number differences.

Aaron
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post #7 of 19 Old 05-14-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post


240 motion flow means 120 panel.
480 motion flow means 240 panel.
960 motion flow means 240 panel + backlight strobing.

Wait, there are panels out that are actually 120Hz? My friends 55" Series 8 is only 60Hz
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post #8 of 19 Old 05-15-2012, 04:34 PM
 
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Thanks bear, but do you know what each setting does? I have Standard, Smooth, Clear, Clear Plus, and Impulse. The last three get progressively dimmer so I assume they involve backlight strobing. Sony tells me nothing about them in the iManual.
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post #9 of 19 Old 05-15-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterkevin View Post

Thanks bear, but do you know what each setting does? I have Standard, Smooth, Clear, Clear Plus, and Impulse. The last three get progressively dimmer so I assume they involve backlight strobing. Sony tells me nothing about them in the iManual.

My only understanding is that Smooth and Standard add a lot of de-judder and not much in the way of anti blur, to me they look horrible. Watching big bang theory and everyone looked sped up.

As for clear and clear plus, they both from my understanding add no de-judder and work hard to reduce motion blur and as you say backlight scanning.

My guess is that they dim light output as shutting of and on of the leds at max output would lesson the effect and also run the leds harder. But could be wrong.

I have been told by several reviewers that there is not benefit to using clear plus over clear.

This is all i have found about impulse but it sounds interesting.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/sony-k...x853_TV_review

Quote:


You also get a startlingly wide array of motion settings in the onscreen menus, including a brand new Impulse one. Select this option and the image frame is repeated four times (rather than new frame content being interpolated) before the backlight blinks at the very last 1/200sec of the video scanning period, as the last image on the LCD screen is at its most stable. This intriguing approach could offer a potential blurring/judder solution to anyone who hates the idea of frame interpolation processing. Obviously we'll be checking this out.

But by the end they didn't sound to amazed.

Quote:


The terrific sharpness of the 46HX853's pictures does not disappear, moreover, during action scenes or sports events, thanks to an exceptionally successful combination of a speedy native response time and Sony's latest motion processing system.

Messing around with the different Motionflow options, the exciting-sounding Impulse mode turns out to be a disappointment, thanks to the high level of flicker it produces. But the Clear and Standard Motionflow settings both work well, removing practically all unnatural judder and blur without making the picture look artificial

Not the highest rated sight but an insight into the setting non the less.

Aaron

Sorry for any mistakes, its 11.45pm here in the Uk.
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post #10 of 19 Old 05-15-2012, 10:20 PM
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I believe Clear inserts a partial black frame and Clear Plus inserts a full black frame. Of course I'm probably over simplifying. Someone with more technical knowledge than I could probably explain it better.
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post #11 of 19 Old 06-26-2012, 01:31 PM
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As I understand it, the xr 240 is an inserted frame in-between original frames to double the amount of frames that make up a sequence...then back light blinking is added to help the brain take the motion better, on the 480 side it's 3 frames into it and then jump to the 960 and it adds in addition to 3 frame insertion and backlight blinking, it does backlight scanning to eliminate almost all blur in the 240hz led
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post #12 of 19 Old 08-18-2012, 12:25 PM
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I assume from all of this that any Sony TV that specifies MotionFlow XR120 (KDL40-EX440) is really a 60Hz panel?
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post #13 of 19 Old 07-27-2013, 08:08 PM
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ByteHoven: Thank you very much for your information. I am a newbie to the TV nomenclature, and though I did not understand all the abbreviations you used, I understood the gist of your comments and I really valued the amount of time, honesty and thoroughness with which you answered the questions regarding Sony's 240, 480 and 960 Motion Flow. Sony needs to hire YOU to apply your expertise for their website, which they once had available years ago. Take good care.
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post #14 of 19 Old 04-06-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

240 motion flow means 120 panel.

480 motion flow means 240 panel.

960 motion flow means 240 panel + backlight strobing.

Sorry to thread necro again, but I just ordered a Sony S990a and I'm curious as to the refresh rate of this TV.

Sony does not reveal the refresh rate, but states it has Motionflow XR 480. On the other hand, Amazon lists that it is a 120Hz panel.

These two are contrary to Bytehoven's theory above. Is it possible a 120 panel could have Moltionflow XR 480? confused.gif
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post #15 of 19 Old 04-07-2014, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

Sorry to thread necro again, but I just ordered a Sony S990a and I'm curious as to the refresh rate of this TV.

Sony does not reveal the refresh rate, but states it has Motionflow XR 480. On the other hand, Amazon lists that it is a 120Hz panel.

These two are contrary to Bytehoven's theory above. Is it possible a 120 panel could have Moltionflow XR 480? confused.gif

I was wondering the same thing lately when looking at S990 and X900A TVs. All the info I have says both are 120Hz TVs, but they are marketed as having Motionflow 480 and 960 respectively. The 2014 X900B also says Motionflow 960, but all signs point to it being 120Hz as well. I'm only speculating, but maybe Sony is doing black frame insertion on 120Hz for 480 now on some models, and doubling up the black frame insertion to hit 960. Or maybe Sony marketing is bumping up the claimed motionflow rating based on a combination of panel refresh rate and low response time or low input lag.
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post #16 of 19 Old 10-09-2014, 04:53 PM
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Bumping an old thread here, does anyone have a definitive answer for this?

Motionflow xr240 = 120 hz panel ?
Motionflow xr480 = 240 hz panel ?

Does it make any difference at all when Motionflow is turned off? Will both perform the same, or because one is native 240hz it'll look smoother even without Motionflow?
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post #17 of 19 Old 10-09-2014, 07:25 PM
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Similary, the KDL60W630B is listed as Motionflow XR 480 in the specs but its a 120hz panel.
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post #18 of 19 Old 10-09-2014, 09:44 PM
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Hrm interesting, so it seems everything up to the w8xx series is 120hz. Then is there any visual difference between XR240 and XR480 if the Motionflow feature is turned off?
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post #19 of 19 Old 10-28-2014, 09:34 PM
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Is there a big difference when it's turned on??
Best Buy Canada doesn't even sell the W850 version, only the W840B
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