Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:50 AM
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We're only discussing the passive tech in this thread.
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:02 PM
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If you have A PS3 and have the latest updates installed supporting 3D, you can go to the Playstion store and download demos of some 3d games such as Killzone 3 , Wipe Out , etc... People have said that Super Stardust HD and Tumble have some of the best pop out effects of any video games. Also of note is Sony's Simon Benson ( Senior Development Manager at Sony Computer Entertainment Europe) said that, in 3D, even trained computer graphics artists could barely tell the difference between the 720P and 1080P resolutions. (referencing PS3 gaming, not 1080P video) http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/16/so...-in-ps3-games/ List of 3D PlayStation 3 games http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tation_3_games
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:02 PM
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I've heard that the reason that there's not a lot of pop out effects in 3D gaming is due it bothering peoples eyes and causing complaints of headaches. When things pop out of the frame constantly your eyes are forced to shift their depth focus back and forth which tires the eyes, leading to discomfort after a while. So game developers are leaning towards depth and providing immersive gameplay. For excessive 3D popout effects to show your friends, you can try things like Dream Aquarium or the LG retailer demo cd.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:10 PM
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Have a look at this S-3D Settings Guide, it does a good job of explaining the interaction of convergence and seperation.
http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?opti...6197&Itemid=98
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:46 PM
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Here's a good article where David Chechelashvili, head of the gaming division at 3D hardware-maker XpanD Cinema mentions that every PC game, starting from later versions of DirectX 8 had the 3D information in it.
Atsushi Honda, an electrical engineer who worked on Sony's new 3D LED displays, talks about the use of virtual cameras to produce/maintain 3D image quality. http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...gaming/4342437 The point here is that all games are not universally great in 3D. There are bound to be specific 3D effects that work better in some games, and some games that are naturally more or less of a fit for 3D. Some games resort to parlor tricks for their 3D, this is why you hear that Avatar with it's ground up 3D support is the best game for testing 3D. Nvidia has a game rating from not recommended to excellent for games used with their 3D Vision
http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-3d-games.html You may want to have a look at the game ratings over at MTBS (Meant to be Seen) http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/ they use a user rating system based of user interactive game analyzer http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?opti...1913&Itemid=82
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butmuncher View Post

Can you help in the seach for a checkerboard video, even if its just 2 seconds long, as my ld950 will play checkerboard through usb , if we can find 1 that will give us another source to try checkerboard with.

I found this download that's supposed to have checkerboard included. http://3dvision-blog.com/another-aft...d-skate-video/ which lead me to this site that streams checkerboard http://www.3df33d.tv/Preferences I also saw this clip of a representative from AVID showing real time conversion into a checkerboard format http://www.5min.com/Video/3D-Editing...view-102131332 not sure which software is being used in the video, free trial if it is Media Composer 5.5 http://apps.avid.com/media-composer-...ntcmp=AV-HP-S4
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:46 PM
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Good news for XBox owner's Epic Games announced today that Gears of War 3 releasing next month will have 3D support, although at a gimped 5 something resolution. http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/15/ge...ar-3-d-re-tit/ playing it through a 3D converter like the VIP Theater may be a better option
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello, it's been awhile and I haven't a chance to post,

For comparing popout and depth, it's a good idea to have a reference picture to compare from so I'm going to post later some pictures that are interleaved. This way I can point out what I see in 3D, what may ghost if you have ghosting issues, which part of the screen should popout and so forth. You will see whatever I see assuming your tv settings are not causing the problems you mentioned.

3dnewb, really nice links there.
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Old 08-16-2011, 02:38 PM
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Finally got the iZ3d driver set-up with my antiquated 3870 card. I see the color bug as well for checkerboard. Side-by-side works (kinda) on Crysis. Then after a while it starts to chug (memory leak?) Tried some Half-Life 2, no go. Textures wouldn't render. Mind you, I only attempted SBS. I guess I should use the native format of the panel and try interlaced.

I may have to mess with CCC refresh rates to see if I can get control of the LG's advanced settings (Expert Mode V & H sharpness settings, etc.) Vertical sharpness seems to be to key to getting things to "gel".

How's this for a newb question: Why attempt to utilize each of the various output formats?
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Old 08-16-2011, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post
How's this for a newb question: Why attempt to utilize each of the various output formats?
I just need checkerboard for 3dvision, sbs for films, interlaced for games .

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Checkerboard output is free for AMD users on IZ3D drivers. It gives a taste of what 3d is for users that have never seen it before.
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:12 AM
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The reason to attempt to utilize each of the various formats is simply due to games, software and hardware not always being compatible with content/sources. Take for instance some of the older games, they do not have a 1080P option, so 720P becomes a good option. Nvidia 3DVision does not support interlaced but does checkerboard. One of the best ways I've seen checkerboard/interlaced compared is "interlaced and checkerboard are half resolution for each eye and with the two eyes together you get full res. Counting pixels, interlaced and checkerboard are perfectly identical. It's just that the line by line interlacing makes it easy to notice, whereas the checkerboard pattern hides the resolution loss.
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:57 AM
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Speaking of formats, Sensio just posted a new video in the last few days, it's of their Sensio Hi-Fi 3D technology http://sensio.tv/business/technology...i_fi_3d_format http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZIL2nmrVmM I'm thinking the Sensio Hi-Fi 3D didn't make it's way to the Vizios this year, since they are having the same issues of color bugs and ghosting. They are or have integrated their decoder into Cyberlink PowerDVD (I use my PS3) "Integration of SENSIO’s 3D decoding technology into PowerDVD will enable this broad array of popular PC systems to read the SENSIO® Hi-Fi 3D format, which delivers “visually lossless” 3D images that are so faithful to the originally captured images that the difference is imperceptible to the eye of the viewer. This high-fidelity 3D format from SENSIO gives consumers the opportunity to enjoy a rich, immersive viewing experience" http://www.cyberlink.com/prog/compan...nt.do?pid=2722
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Old 08-17-2011, 03:58 AM
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Re the diff between checkerboard and interlaced, That's what I'm finding so far. Also, checkerboard seems to be the least painful way for me to play in 3d. (With iZ3d anyway as Tridef checkerboard exhibits the same issues as passive interlaced)

I "should" be able to run without putting my TV into 3d mode due to it's passive interlaced panel, and I can, but with considerable ghosting issues which I think lie somewhere between the TV firmware and the iz3d / tridef drivers. In the meantime between iZ3d for checkerboard, or tridef for HD3d i'm fairly covered.

I'll get onto Tridef / iZ3d about these directly as I've paid for both of them, but right now I just want to enjoy my gaming rather than fault fix the damn thing 3 weeks on...

(Oh, and for the record, the firmware update for the LG 42LW450 they sent out seems to have resolved the 2d-3d conversion top / bottom cropping, but has introduced a full screen left shift resulting in a black bar down the right hand side and a hidden image in it's place on the left. Wonderful. :/

Back to gaming though: fortunately checkerboard mode adds no noticeable input lag to my gaming.

ATI's HD3d is also an option, dependent on desired experience, but it's all about the medium and/or genre as to why you'd choose different outputs.

Also of note is that it is handy to have the likes of iz3d AND tridef available, because there are bugs in one which are often absent in the other, and vice versa - though granted, sometimes they exist in both. That said, I can't personally comment on nVidia's solution, except to say I've read enough to know that camp isn't exactly problem free either.

An example of the above by the way, Portal 2 under tridef gives you the 2d water effect (seriously messing with the eyes), iz3d renders it properly in 3d. Tridef plays DeadSpace 2 better mind, at least until you turn on simple shadow projection with iZ3d. So on and so forthe.
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Old 08-17-2011, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

"Integration of SENSIO's 3D decoding technology into PowerDVD will enable this broad array of popular PC systems to read the SENSIO® Hi-Fi 3D format, which delivers visually lossless 3D images that are so faithful to the originally captured images that the difference is imperceptible to the eye of the viewer.http://www.cyberlink.com/prog/compan...nt.do?pid=2722

PowerDVD?! Really?! That thing should be classified as malware it's so invasive and bloated with crap.

Granted, there's little choice for BluRay on the PC, but I went for Arcsoft and am more than happy with their minimalist approach.
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Old 08-17-2011, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I was browsing this part about chroma subsampling and came across this page
http://forums.amd.com/game/messagevi...hreadid=145310

They talk about how the amd drivers are forcing the chroma values to 4:2:2 and deleting the extension block engages the 4:4:4 and kills HDMI audio just like butmuncher has been talking about all along. How this effects the ghosting still needs some testing but in the meantime, I am gathering a list of our computers and the system config in which how it is connected. Maybe the datapoints could help in finding out how to fix this. It's possible using a DVI to HDMI may act the same as deleting the extension block but I haven't tested it yet.

TV/Videocard/connnection type dongle/ HDMI color range input/
Outputs that have working 3D, pass
Outputs with ghosting, fail

My computer (Skyguy)
LG 55LW5600/ATI Radeon 5870/HDMI direct connection/Yrb 4:4:4:/
Interleaved, Side by Side,HD3D pass
IZ3D Checkerboard fail greyscale ghosting fixed color ghosting present
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Old 08-17-2011, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Subverse,

Why are you getting no problems with checkerboard? Have you run my Section II test clip 2 and see if you pass that video. That is strange it is working fine with IZ3D but not with Tridef in checkerboard. Can you add your info to my previous post so I can brainstorm?

About this pancake effect, this can be due to the stereo projection matrix that the 3d drivers create to prevent the max amount of popout your eyes can see but from what I have been seeing from IZ3D drivers, I've always seen popout very clearly with IZ3D monitor and also LG Cinema 3D equally well. In order to get popout the convergence values have to be pushed positive and more toward the screen whereas when you want more depth, you have to have more negative convergence and push the 3d more away from the screen toward yourself.

Games where you explained the high separation when in closeups like in the Dragon age character screen, Ironsights mode in guns are due to more positive convergence and high separation combination. In those games you may have to adjust the convergence to a slightly higher negative convergence and minimize separation to keep your eyes from going cross-eyed. It's very common in Bioware games because they usually render those scenes in that particular way and cause problems with games that change viewpoints often. If Tridef can keep the separation more high, then that does make it better in that sense. Games where the reference point of view doesn't change very much as in Left 4 Dead, then this issue does not occur and so the user can move the convergence more positive to gain increased popout effect.

If you want a game to show awesome 3D effects, try out Resident Evil 5. I was testing this on a Radeon 3870, so for people that think you need a fast videocard it's not necessary if you pick older games.
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Old 08-17-2011, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

Finally got the iZ3d driver set-up with my antiquated 3870 card. I see the color bug as well for checkerboard. Side-by-side works (kinda) on Crysis. Then after a while it starts to chug (memory leak?) Tried some Half-Life 2, no go. Textures wouldn't render. Mind you, I only attempted SBS. I guess I should use the native format of the panel and try interlaced.

Half life could be due to Steam community may need to be disabled for this game in particular because sometimes IZ3D does not interact well with steam overlay.

Crysis may need shadows disabled or add the shadow fix enabled in IZ3D.
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:03 AM
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Good food for thought, gents. Thanks.

I was curious about the HDMI signal being messed with via ATI cards since they put the audio stream in with the video. I have to utilize the dongle to get my audio, but I do still have a DVI-HDMI cable that I could swap to determne if the dongle is breaking anything.
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:30 AM
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Dr. S,
It's not breaking anything since the HDMI protocol multiplexs the audio and video on the same wires. All the dongle does is tell the ATI graphics card that it muliplex the audio and video on the DVI card just as if it was an HDMI card.
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

So using ATI Tray you couldn't force the higher refresh rate for TriDef or did you try it? I saw in the description that it even offered game perofiles. I've used Riva Tuner succesfully to force 120hz on my projector. Also, Nvidia used to have checkerboard but it was broken by a driver at the beginning of the year when they updated to the 1.4 compliant drivers. I'm pretty sure the last driver didn't fix it either, maybe the beta driver does? Anyways Andrew Fear ( Senior Product Manager) stated in a post that it would be fixed in a following driver release . http://blogs.nvidia.com/author/andrew-fear/ Read post #110 in the Nvidia forumn http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...=191819&st=100 the whole thread is a good read about Nvidia and checkerboard. Here's a link to another thread where you find the rollermod/inf listed, plus you'll see they're upset about checkerboard not being fixed in the last driver among other things argued in the thread. http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...&#entry1275871

I didn't install Tridef but I did try to install ATI tray tools and it doesn't seem to work on the Radeon 5870.
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Old 08-18-2011, 12:35 AM
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Reading this desription "RivaTuner is a complete powerful tweaking environment, providing you everything you may need to tune NVIDIA GPU based display adapters" I was under the impression that Riva Tuner no longer supported ATI http://www.guru3d.com/index.php?page=rivatuner&menu=8 Knowing that it supported it before, I went back for another look and landed on a different page with the same release version clearly stating "Rivatuner is the leading tweak utility for Nvidia GeForce and ATI Radeon based videocards". http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=163 If you are looking to overclock AMD Overdrive or MSI Afterburner (based on Rivatuner)are also options. http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm http://sites.amd.com/us/game/downloa.../overview.aspx I use Afterburner to monitor my card temp and bump my fan speed during heavy gaming. I also use a program called Speedfan for temp monitoring and fan speed adjustment.http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php Another old program used to force ref/rez/clr was Qres although outdated, it may still work.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:58 AM
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Haven't had time to address the outstanding queries from previous posts yet, but another app to look at for ATI users is Radeon Pro, which is basically nVidia's game profile's on steroids for ATI users.

Features include forcing refresh rates, double / triple opengl AND DirectX VSync & buffering on an automated per application basis (the reason I first found it), crossfire specific settings etc etc.

Also has it's on FPS counter, screen capture etc.

http://www.radeonpro.info/en-US/
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:51 AM
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Lg 47ld950 passive 3dtv
sbs,o/u,frequency works
Interlaced, checkerboard has colourbug.
Interlaced is fixed for me using edid with extension bloc deleted.
Nvidia gtx 470
dvi-hdmi rgb

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:38 AM
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TV: LG 42LW450U (AKA LG 42LW4500 series) Cinema3d Passive (Horizontal Interlaced)

VideoCard: 1x MSI TwinFrozr III PowerEd/OC HD6950 2Gb

Connection type:
DSUB:
Working 3d:None acceptable

Outputs with Ghosting: All available (Interleave exhibits Greyscale ghost)

HDMI: (Direct Connection full HDMI 1.4a, PC Standard 4:4:4 Full RGB current, tested with all, no change)
Working 3d: AMD/ATI HD3D 1080p24 & 720p50 (Either), Checkerboard (iZ3d only), SBS (Either)

Outputs with Ghosting: Interleaved (iZ3d (Standard appears to control marginally better over optimised, but still severe ghosting present) / Tridef (standard / hitatchi et al) Severe colour ghosting, Checkerboard (Samsung setting, Tridef only) Severe colour ghosting.

EDID Override Effect: No change

Resolutions Tested: 1080p60, 50, 30, 25, 24 for all methods / 720p60, 50, 30, 25, 24 for all methods.

TV Picture Modes Tested: All available
TV Input Labels Tested: All inc. PC label for HDMI
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:22 AM
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Great find! I looked thru the user manual, quite nice, lots of options and see the author thanks the authors of Riva Tuner and ATI Tray Tools for their tips during development.
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

You'd think since LG paid to have this TV, 3DTV Play supported/certified by Nvidia it would do interlaced 1080p 60hz for gaming. Also on the TriDef did it make any difference in windowed mode versus fullscreen. Because I've read that the last driver broke the 120hz setting in fullscreen, defaulting to the desktop refresh rate, but it may have only been for Nvidia projector users.

I was under the impression that tv manufacturers had to purchase support/certification just like Nvidia requires of motherboard manufacturers that implement SLI, but it seems this might not be the case. I saw a post on the Nvidia forumns stating that getting a TV on the support list for 3DTv Play (not 3DVision) is as simple as submitting your EDID info. http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...&#entry1269973 http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2774 http://www.nvidia.com/object/3dtv-pl...uirements.html
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:17 PM
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so ive basically been trolling the net for about 4 weeks solid trying to sort these ghosting problems, i dont have a solution yet but just thought since this is a very prominant thread that pops up in google id join up and share my pain.

my TV: LG 55LW6500

running with an HTPC/nivida gt430 using TMT5 for movies, i dont do much gaming but do have call of duty: black ops i had a play with in 3d which was excellent using 3dtv play software.... no ghosting or audio sync issues that i picked up on.

BUT movies are a different story, and movies are definetly the big thing for me as my hardrive has over a TB of them and with the size of 3D movies its quickly getting filled up.

if in TMT5 i select 1.4 hdmi nvidia ready tv i get great 3D, no ghosting but Horrible audio lag, my first few weeks were spent trying to sort that, it was issues with 24hz, the picture was great, but the audio was just F***D tried reclock no help only thing that helped was using mkvmerge to add an audio delay of around 350ms, but that was hit and miss and drove me insane so decided to skip using that for movies.

interleaved was the next best playing movies at 60hz but this ghosting is driving me up the wall, tried playing with the settings on the tv, no real change, edid overide deleting the extension block did absolutely nothing except disable hdmi 1.4 support.

tried using skyguys settings but for some reason the sharpness values are greyed out in when using the pc input selection with the lw6500, maybe they made some changes between the 5600 and 6500?

using the vertical sharpness in other modes though isf expert modes seemed to work well, but without that pc lable it just causes other issues.

so yeah ive got nothing to add but will be monitoring this thread very closely for any miracle cure, and will pop back and let you guys know if i find anything of any use.

edit: tried using VGA but it was exactly the same, no difference to ghosting whatso ever.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi paint1983

I know using stereoscopic player in amd stereo mode doesn't have any delay or Side by Side either. I would ask the 55lw6500 thread and see if they can change sharpness in PC label input. Without it, you would not be able to adjust the greyscale ghosting at all. The next step is to forward this to LG so they know you need sharpness enabled, because interleave does not have any processing so being able to change this is crucial to getting the 3d to show correctly. The only time I have sharpness locked out is if I enable checkerboard mode right now.

I was just testing Subverse settings today and when I switched back to "blank" label input, the colored ghosting came back for interleaved so I had to use pc label with the 4.00.18 firmware. In the May firmware, PC label did not help at all and I had to use ISF Expert Mode 1 to fix ghosting in blank label input. The other part I missed was the 2d-3d conversion does have black columns on both sides on this firmware, I think the firmware only fixed it specifically for Side by Side 3d mode.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:11 AM
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I was wondering if LG had ever released a new firmware for their monitor, they haven't. But while checking I came across a software program they have for adjustments and color calibrations, called fortemanager. I'm not sure if it will work with a TV or if it will allow adjustments on the fly, but it does have a sharpness adjustment as well. You can also create as many new user profiles as desired. Starting with Version 3, forteManager uses the graphics card driver to communicate with the monitor. If the driver doesn't support forteManager, it will not be able to control your monitor. If version 3 doesn't work and your graphics driver is up to date use forteManager Version 2.xx. Version 2 bypasses the graphics card driver and connects directly to the monitor.
http://www.lg.com/global/fortemanage...r_overview.jsp Other similar programs are Magic Tune(Samsung), EZ Tune (Gateway) and Na ViSet (NEC). Other manufacturers are likely to have versions as well for their monitors or maybe even versions for TV use with a PC.
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