Passive FPR 3D ghosting problems in Interlace and Checkerboard - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 513 Old 06-27-2011, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Update 7/21/11 Mocca over at Nvidia 3D vision users forum has pictures of the color ghosting bug and found the problem out months ago.
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=198189

Update 7/23/11 New test parameters for testing Color Ghosting shown below in Section II.

7/23/11 New firmware update has improved lag in 3D mode with PC label.

10/26/11 LG Cinema 3D TV users outside of US region have PC label mode with fixed 50 sharpness which causes grey ghosting

SECTION I.

I've been testing my LG 55LW5600 tv for ghosting test and it does well for frame-packing mode and Side by Side mode but it does not pass the Interleave native mode and checkerboard mode of the TV.

As you know, the LG TV screen film pattern retarder is divided into 1080 lines vertically, 540 lines are delivered to the left eye, and 540 lines are delivered to the right eye. So when you use software that sends the information to the screen aligned to the FPR, the effect of 3D should be shown on the screen similar to previous computer 3d monitor such as the Zalman 22 inch passive display.

The problem is that there is some video processing that occurs or the calibration of the tv is not tuned correctly and the user of such mode gets too much ghosting.

There are many different ways to reproduce this ghosting. I will show two different ways to display this problem.

Method 1) Watching movies
The first way is to playback an mkv of a movie or 3d clip in Stereoscopic player in Interleave mode Left line first and watch the scene for ghosting and then compare it to Side by Side mode and you will see there is no ghosting in Side by Side. The same can be done when using 3D DLP mode in the option which is checkerboard mode and this mode has the color ghosting bug as shown in Section II.

Method 2) Playing Games
This method can be recreated by using my guide at http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=5205.

I will sum it up here. Basically, with the IZ3D drivers set to Interleaved Mode, the game should display 540 lines to the left eye, and 540 lines to the right eye. The game will show a 3d effect with ghosting that does not occur when I set the 3D drivers to Side by Side mode. When I set it to 3D DLP mode, again checkerboard mode, I also see 3D but there is even more ghosting in this mode compared to Interleaved mode. This is the color ghosting rejection problem for checkerboard as outlined in Section II.

Most users that watch Blu Ray 3D or TV will not see this ghosting because they are encoded in HDMI 1.4a Frame-packing mode or Side by Side mode.

I know that Vizio passive 3D users have this problem too because I checked with other users to see if they had the same ghosting in Interleave mode. The problems are all within the scope of the FPR TV so maybe there can be someone at LG that can look into this since they are the manufacturers of this FPR technology.

I am including ghosting test that I recorded in a dark room for Side by Side mode, notice no ghosting in this test. I am using the left lens of the glasses to look for ghosting.




And here are the test in Checkerboard mode that show the information seen from the left lens only and shows the ghosting that is not resolved fully.




I hope that LG will look into this matter ASAP.

SECTION II.

Update 7/23/11 Test for checkerboard 3d using video

Alright, I now have two full ways of verifying this color ghosting bug for Checkerboard 3D on the LG. What they both show that during the ghosting test, they pass the greyscale ghosting but do not pass the color portion of the ghosting test. That means LG calibrated this test with greyscale only and needs to add on color ghosting test to see this.

Program required: Stereoscopic Player
http://3dtv.at/Downloads/StereoscopicPlayer173_en.msi

Test #1: Download test clip 1 Link to clip http://www.box.net/shared/lpe35vy1h8

1. Run the 3d player with Viewing Method 3D Ready DLP-TV
2. Play movie clip and pause it.
3. Press the 3D button on the LG remote and select the checkerboard pattern.
4. Notice with the left eye only watching with 3D glasses you should not see anything that should be on the second half bottom of the screen. Except you do and its only the Red, Green, Blue, colors from the "Image from Right Eye". That's the color ghosting confirmed right there.
5. Turn off the 3D button now.
6. If I switch the Viewing method to Row Interlaced, Left Line Top and view this now with the left eye only watching with 3D glasses everything on the bottom row should be black completely. (Assuming your calibrations are all correct) ***Vizio users select Row Interlaced, Right Line Top***
This proves color is the main component that is incorrectly showing through both eyes in checkerboard.

Test #2 Download test clip 2 link here http://www.websaitti.com/kuvat/3dtv/3d_crosstalk_test_02.wmv


1. Run the 3d player with Viewing Method 3D Ready DLP-TV
2. Press the checkerboard button on LG remote and play clip 2.
3. Notice this time through clip you must use the right eye lens of the glasses only and watch the clip completely.
4. You will notice that the right eye with glasses only cannot see the numbers for Grey, but will see them for all the colors, Red, Blue, Green.
That is the ghosting problem, this test is to see if there is color rejection but it does not pass the checkerboard test.
5. Turn off 3D on the remote.
6. Now switch the Viewing Method to Row Interlaced, Left Line Top and again using the Right eye lens only you will see that all the numbers in the colors will disappear which proves the problem is with checkerboard 3D format only. No numbers means there is no ghosting and color rejection is working properly so now I have a definitive way of testing for color ghosting. ***Vizio users select Row Interlaced, Right Line Top***
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post #2 of 513 Old 06-30-2011, 03:25 AM
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There seems to have a solution around the interleaved issue according to the Discussion Forum at the TriDef website (under the "TriDef 3D Products" tab -> 3D display tech -> Other 3D displays -> LG LW5600 Passive 3D TV.
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post #3 of 513 Old 06-30-2011, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks gmaple11

They say that using a VGA cable does help with removing ghosting in line interleaved mode. The only problem now is when using the VGA connection, none of the other outputs work for the LG like Side by Side, AMD HD3D or 3DTV play, and Checkerboard. This TV requires an HDMI input to support these modes.

Last time I used a VGA cable, I had a lot of smeared text probably due to a weak VGA cable so I did not use it very long. This also means playback of DTS master tracks are not possible anymore because they need to be routed through the HDMI.

I would rather LG find a way to add an option to add a "Gaming option with Line Interleaved Support" that removes post-processing of the TV and enables the full color gamut from 0-255 values so these problems can be resolved.

If using Side by Side works on HDMI with no ghosting, there is no reason that it shouldn't work for regular TV watching or Line-Interleaved mode. Plus, they gave the option of using checkerboard so to me that should mean the quality of this mode should be working well quality wise but it's not currently.
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post #4 of 513 Old 06-30-2011, 06:42 AM
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Looks like it's time to buy an ATI card...

Kidding aside, I hope they (LG) find a way to resolve this for you. I love mine and I've only had it for 4 days!
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post #5 of 513 Old 06-30-2011, 06:44 AM
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post #6 of 513 Old 07-12-2011, 01:35 AM
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Hi,
I believe i've fixed the interlaced ghosting over hdmi , so if i can get interlaced working over hdmi with no ghosting/color bug then we can probly allso get checkerboard to work correctly aswell but i do'nt have the brains to mess with edid's.

Just install the inf for your monitor and reboot, interlaced should then work, i have confirmed that my original edid gives ghosting/color bug and using the modified inf does'nt, i have tried this a few times!

mediafire.com/?f09igz989kkgatf

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #7 of 513 Old 07-12-2011, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi

I'll have to try this fix soon. What I do know is there are two types of ghosting with Passive screens that should help us passive users. The first is a color ghosting that can be removed by reducing the color or by doing what you did with the edid and changing the color range. The second is a grey ghosting that should be removed by modifying the sharpness values. Those values are not fixed and change numerically when using PC mode vs when using a blank label input. The easiest way to calibrate the sharpness values is to change it while pausing a 3d scene with high popout and you will see the 3d effect increasing or decreasing relative to those values.

I've been setting up tables with these settings based on a pass/fail relationship and I've found that those values have a constant change depending on the video mode the input is in. As in PC, Blank and whether I am in ISF mode or in standard video mode. ISF splits the Vertical and Horizontal Sharpness into two values so therefore does not have the same Sharpness values as Standard video mode.

The reason I believe checkerboard is completely not working right now is because the Sharpness values are fixed, they cannot be changed, in the current firmware. Remember that this would fix the grey ghosting only, then you would still need the color range set correctly to completely fix the problem.
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post #8 of 513 Old 07-12-2011, 03:18 PM
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Cool, i'd be gratefull if you could try it and report back, i've posted on tridef/iz3d,3dvision so i'm itching to know.

I have a ld950 and the settings are pretty much useless for options, once 3d has been activated all menu's become disabled, i take it when your in 3d mode you still have access to options?

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #9 of 513 Old 07-12-2011, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, here is what I did.

I first created a system restore backup in case something messed up.
So I installed the inf file that was called EDID INF Override and I checked to make sure the monitor was displayed with that file in particular.
Next I launched a game with Interleaved in IZ3D to check for ghosting. Unfortunately, it did not work on my tv. The other problem was now AQBS in IZ3D was unsupported now because your EDID was for an Nvidia card which would disabled AMD HD3D support on my TV. I kept trying different video modes to see if they had improved, PC mode, Non-PC mode, Standard, Cinema, ISF, it was still the same from before I updated the inf.
The good news is since I created the restore point, I was able to restore all my previous settings with AQBS intact so no harm done.

About the 3d mode deactivating your settings, Interleaved mode for the TV should allow you to adjust all the settings of your tv because it is not running any 3D processing at all. Yeah, just checked to see if the video mode options were available in 3d, they are adjustable for this tv.

One thing I forgot to check for was checkerboard ghosting with this inf, I will have do this one again to see if it helped for this mode. I did notice the wallpaper was was more saturated while using the inf.
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post #10 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 12:44 AM
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Hi,
I'm suprised the inf did'nt work for you, and alittle sad as it works for me, sorry but i have to ask, are you sure you installed the driver?, did your monitor under device manager change to " LGE LG TV (GSM0001 EDID Override) "? And did you reboot?
You do'nt realy ned to make a restoe piont, but i suppose be safe is better than being sorry, i can switch between drivers for monitor using device manager with no problems.

Yes i have a nvidia card and i'm just about to try 3dtvplay for its frame packed to see if i have lost 1.4 aswell, yes i lost 1.4 but only because this tv never worked anyway, i had to use another edid overide for that.

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #11 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you give me the link that you have with the working inf again. The one above is not clickable. I did reboot but I did not reinstall IZ3D driver or Catalyst driver after the inf update.

Nevermind I added www to your link and I see the 005 file and see the device manager ask if I want to install LGE LG TV GSM005 EDID Override. I'll try again and see what happens.
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post #12 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you check in Help section of IZ3D driver and click on Diagnostic and pull the log file

Monitor name: Generic PnP Monitor
Monitor maximum resolution:
Driver name: aticfx64.dll,aticfx64.dll,aticfx64.dll,aticfx32,aticfx32,ati cfx32,atiumd64.dll,atidxx64.dll,atidxx6
Driver version: 8.17.0010.1083
Driver attributes: Final Retail
DriverLanguage (English): English
DriverDate (English): 5/24/2011 22:06:38
Adapter: 0
VendorId: 0x1002
DeviceId: 0x6898
Attached Monitor DeviceId: MONITOR\\GSM0005\\{4d36e96e-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}\\0004
Attached Monitor Model: GSM0005
Monitor display area size: 105cm x 59cm (diag 47.42")
DS texture format D16: supported
DS texture format D16 LOCKABLE: unsupported
DS texture format D24S8: supported
DS texture format D24X8: supported
DS texture format ATI DF16: supported
DS texture format ATI DF24: supported
DS texture format NVidia INTZ: supported
DS texture format NVidia RAWZ: unsupported
Surface format ATI AQBS: unsupported

Monitor name shows PnP, is yours showing this?

I think the Catalyst drivers are forcing me to use the Generic PnP after I reboot for some reason.
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post #13 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

Can you check in Help section of IZ3D driver and click on Diagnostic and pull the log file

Monitor name: Generic PnP Monitor
Monitor maximum resolution:
Driver name: aticfx64.dll,aticfx64.dll,aticfx64.dll,aticfx32,aticfx32,ati cfx32,atiumd64.dll,atidxx64.dll,atidxx6
Driver version: 8.17.0010.1083
Driver attributes: Final Retail
DriverLanguage (English): English
DriverDate (English): 5/24/2011 22:06:38
Adapter: 0
VendorId: 0x1002
DeviceId: 0x6898
Attached Monitor DeviceId: MONITOR\\GSM0005\\{4d36e96e-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}\\0004
Attached Monitor Model: GSM0005
Monitor display area size: 105cm x 59cm (diag 47.42")
DS texture format D16: supported
DS texture format D16 LOCKABLE: unsupported
DS texture format D24S8: supported
DS texture format D24X8: supported
DS texture format ATI DF16: supported
DS texture format ATI DF24: supported
DS texture format NVidia INTZ: supported
DS texture format NVidia RAWZ: unsupported
Surface format ATI AQBS: unsupported

Monitor name shows PnP, is yours showing this?

I think the Catalyst drivers are forcing me to use the Generic PnP after I reboot for some reason.

Hi,
Right so it looks as if your installing the wrong driver as the monitor will be called GSM0001 EDID Overdrive , for me i have todo

Device manager > monitor-update driver software > browse my computer for software > let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer > have disc > browse to your modified edid- ok > now if the correct driver does'nt show then de-tick show compatible hardware, this will be on the same window > manufacturer-LGE - LGE LG TV ( GSM0001 EDID Overdrive ) > double click that > driver installs > reboot.


Now when i done this fix i followed a tut that said i needed to disable the extensions from 1 to 0, i done this at same time as i changed the gamma but now you said you had a problem i went back and looked/tested.
It appears that gamma does'nt need tobe changed as on a fresh edid i just chaged teh extensions from 1 to 0 and interlaced works perfect so it has nothing todo with the gamma.

Allso if i use a modified edid from the net to get 3dtvplay working ( this does not make interlaced work ) and edit it so 1 is 0 then 3dtvplay stops being recognised but interlaced then works!

So if you want to mess with your own edid then just put 0 whare the 1 is in the extension bloc.

I followed this tut, it's not much but it obviously gave me a working interlaced.
http://analogbit.com/fix_nvidia_edid

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #14 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello again,

You lost me at extension block. For now I have Phoenix EDID software and it identifies the EDID from registry. It saves the file as a dat file. So how am I supposed to create an inf from this file? Is there another software I need? I'm starting to think the reason you have this working is because the inf is treating the tv as a HDMI 1.3 device so Interlace works which would disable AQBS too.
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post #15 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 01:52 AM
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Have now added a screenie , i have hope of interlaced working for you as you stated that your monitor did'nt have the new edids name!
LL

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #16 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 01:56 AM
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You change that 1 to a 0 in the extension bloc and save as a dat file.
You then need to use a program called moninfo http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

Start the program,open file and browse to your modified .dat file that pheonix created, then back upto file in left top corner and select CREATE INF.
of course when you create the inf you can give it any name you like but under device manager properties it will be GSM0001 EDID Overdrive, if it does'nt have that name then its not installed.

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #17 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, will download program and try this on my LG's inf.
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post #18 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:22 AM
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I'm confident that together we can have this working for you!
Added another pic, if the extensions that i marked do'nt look like that then you have not modified it correctly.
By the way pheonix is read only so deselct that so you can edit if you have'nt allready.
I'm determined to have this working for you as i only signed up here after seeing your post a few weeks ago through google
LL

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #19 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:27 AM - Thread Starter
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So I started to play around with the settings with the extension block at 0. Yeah, text and everything has changed a lot compared to before. You can read tiny text much easier now and the reason I did not see an improvement like you did was because I was using my values for low ghosting but with this modified inf, I needed to actually readjust my Sharpness values again. It makes sense though if you think about it since the sharpness levels change once you make the TV show the pixels differently. This allowed me to have no ghosting in interlace but at the same time I lost AQBS HD3D support in doing this.

Man, using windows desktop looks 100% better with this inf change.

Congratulations on fixing this problem so hopefully this works for other passive users.

Now I need to see how checkerboard looks.
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post #20 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:30 AM
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Can i just say SWEEEEEET!


I knew i had stumbled upon on a fix for interlaced, i'd be really happy if checkerboard worked for you, sadly it still has the color bug for me.

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #21 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Checkerboard has color ghosting after changing the inf but maybe it has to do with LG checkerboard pattern. It's possible that LG is using RealD checkerboard grid and not Texas Instument TI sample pattern grid. Read this the following post on page 3 for more info on the fact that RealD checkerboard pattern is aligned different to TI pattern.
click here
It's possible that IZ3D drivers checkerboard pattern was made for TI pattern and just needs an update for RealD pattern too.
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post #22 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

Checkerboard has color ghosting after changing the inf but maybe it has to do with LG checkerboard pattern. It's possible that LG is using RealD checkerboard grid and not Texas Instument TI sample pattern grid. Read this the following post on page 3 for more info on the fact that RealD checkerboard pattern is aligned different to TI pattern.
click here
It's possible that IZ3D drivers checkerboard pattern was made for TI pattern and just needs an update for RealD pattern too.

Ah that's intresting, 2 different types of checkerboard, i did'nt know that, if iz3d could make a fix that would be great.
What i'm really looking for is a fix for 3dvisions cb with lg passive as i hate being locked out of 1 of the 3 stereoscopic softwares.
My initial findings for interlaced was found by searching for a fix for checkerboard.

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #23 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 09:48 AM
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Alittle more digging tells me that changing the 1 to a 0 deletes the extension block which contains sound/res/3d info, this is why hd3d stops working, maybe allso deleting the extension will stop sound over hdmi?

I think the extension is editable through hex?

So if it deletes the extension blocs and then interlaced is working then there is a option or setting within that extension that will fix interlaced and keep the hdmi 1.4 standard!
I can't terst this as i have alot of nvidia audio things disabled, i allso use a 5.1 surround so this does'nt affect me.

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #24 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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The only side effect I had was losing AQBS but HMDI sound was still retained after changing the inf on my side.

About the RealD checkerboard grid, I'm going to install Avatar PC game and see what 3D options this game has. This game outputs native 3D outputs without any 3d drivers installed and if it has the RealD checkerboard grid and works without ghosting, then we know why there is ghosting in the first place.
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post #25 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

The only side effect I had was losing AQBS but HMDI sound was still retained after changing the inf on my side.

About the RealD checkerboard grid, I'm going to install Avatar PC game and see what 3D options this game has. This game outputs native 3D outputs without any 3d drivers installed and if it has the RealD checkerboard grid and works without ghosting, then we know why there is ghosting in the first place.

Good thinking batman.

Bugged Interleaved/checkerboard lg forum thread, please add your names.http://www.avforums.com/forums/lg-fo...-lg-3dtvs.html
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post #26 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I just tested AVATAR PC game and it supports RealD format, Side by Side, Interleaved, Checkerboard, and Sensio mode. What I found out was the RealD format is a Side by Side packed format with Checkerboard enabled. This is not what LG TV checkerboard format is using, it is using Texas Instrument DLP checkerboard format. That only means that the checkerboard format that LG is using is not calibrated correctly which causes this ghosting. When I set the game to output checkerboard natively with no 3D drivers installed and also enable Checkerboard in the 3D option of the LG TV, I notice the same color ghosting that I've been seeing using IZ3D and Tridef drivers when I enable DLP checkerboard mode.

It's easy to verify, anyone can probably download the AVATAR pc demo somewhere on the internet or just get an XBOX Live demo of Avatar and test the checkerboard format vs Side by Side and see the difference.

To setup the game, both Checkerboard and Line Interlace mode need Invert Eyes enabled in the game options in order to see 3D correctly.

Here is the link to show the format options AVATAR the game has:
http://3dvision-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17

I've sent a log to LG, let's see what they say after 48 hours.
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post #27 of 513 Old 07-13-2011, 04:26 PM
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I have no idea what SbS with checkerboard enabled means or looks like.
TI checekerboard trenamission format is a 1/2 4 3D format that packs intoi a standard 1080//60 frame buffer a 960x1080 subfield for each eye which the the DLP 3D ready RP TVs can display. I can find no data about another Checkerboard video data transmission format.
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post #28 of 513 Old 07-14-2011, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

I have no idea what SbS with checkerboard enabled means or looks like.
TI checekerboard trenamission format is a 1/2 4 3D format that packs intoi a standard 1080//60 frame buffer a 960x1080 subfield for each eye which the the DLP 3D ready RP TVs can display. I can find no data about another Checkerboard video data transmission format.

This RealD output is not compatible with checkerboard because it 2 frames side by side. Avatar is one of the few games that can output this mode and I wanted to try both this RealD output and Checkerboard output to see whether or not LG was using one of these outputs. Once I ran the RealD checkerboard output without intervention from tv, it is clearly 2 frames on one screen. I found out that the LG supports TI checkerboard but even when I play a game like AVATAR, I can see the same color ghosting that I've seen before in this checkerboard mode in other games by using 3d drivers like IZ3D and setting the output for DLP checkerboard.

So this tells me that LG needs to do more testing in checkerboard mode for their Passive screens that include the LG 55LW5600 and even Passive glass screens like the LG LD950. The key is LG needs to do testing with 3d color samples in 3D checkerboard output to see the problem. Because the ghosting problems are color ghosting, you cannot see this with black and white samples.

Did you read my link I posted here...http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=5292&start=30
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post #29 of 513 Old 07-14-2011, 03:32 PM
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I don't understand what you meant by
"Once I ran the RealD checkerboard output " since you only discuss real ID Side-by-side format.
AFAIK the only checkerboard format is that developed by TI for use with RP 3D DLP TVs which were made starting in 2007 and advertised as 3D readyRP DLP TVs manufaxcgtured by Mits and Samsung.
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post #30 of 513 Old 07-14-2011, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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The realD format output is selectable through the AVATAR game menu, this is what I was trying to say without intervention of the tv means I am not using any 3d mode from the TV to change the 3D mode. I am seeing it as a complete transmission frame by frame.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?opti...iews&Itemid=76

You have to scroll to the RealD output in the game menu to see what I am talking about.
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