full array vs edge lit with local dimming visual differences - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 07-21-2011, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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so today i was doing some tv shopping i tried to compare the edge lit with local dimming led (lg56lw5600) to the full array LED (sony xbr46hx909) and i cannot see much if not any visual differences. both tvs look real sharp. the full array one cost about 300 dollars more, but it also has an upgraded 240 hz. is it worth the 300 dollar upgrade for a full array? what are the visual picture quality differences between the both?
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post #2 of 20 Old 07-21-2011, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by martyball619 View Post

so today i was doing some tv shopping i tried to compare the edge lit with local dimming led (lg56lw5600) to the full array LED (sony xbr46hx909) and i cannot see much if not any visual differences. both tvs look real sharp. the full array one cost about 300 dollars more, but it also has an upgraded 240 hz. is it worth the 300 dollar upgrade for a full array? what are the visual picture quality differences between the both?

Edge lit LED LCDs can have issues with flashlighting on the edges as well as inconsistent black levels across the width of the set. Full array is supposed to offer a more uniform picture.

A normal consumer might not notice/care, but I'd do some more personal research into those sets.

Edit: Forgot to mention, check the threads here on AVS for both the Sony and LG.

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post #3 of 20 Old 07-21-2011, 09:29 AM
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LED TVs compared [ http://reviews.cnet.com/2795-6482_7-399.html


-----------ccfl LCd---------- edge lit led LCd--full array local dimming led LCd

Most edge-lit are side-lit (left and right).

When watching a bluray on a pro-calibrated TV in a dark room will show you its best performance, in a store you can not make a propper judgement.

The 909 is one of the best LCd's on the market right now.
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post #4 of 20 Old 07-21-2011, 10:21 AM
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Since a 56" screen is over 40% larger then a 46" screen the lack of full array local dimming may be more obvious.
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post #5 of 20 Old 07-21-2011, 12:59 PM
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I know from personal experience that the flashlighting and uneven illumination that is virtually inherent in edge lit led sets is least visible in store displays--disguised by a combination of very bright ambient lighting, sets being in "torch mode", and the fact that the store feed is almost all very bright content all over the screen. Any pic content that would reveal the difference is of such short duration that you just don't see the faults.

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post #6 of 20 Old 07-22-2011, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

LED TVs compared [ http://reviews.cnet.com/2795-6482_7-399.html


-----------ccfl LCd---------- edge lit led LCd--full array local dimming led LCd

Most edge-lit are side-lit (left and right).

When watching a bluray on a pro-calibrated TV in a dark room will show you its best performance, in a store you can not make a propper judgement.

The 909 is one of the best LCd's on the market right now.

cool.. thank's
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post #7 of 20 Old 07-22-2011, 04:02 AM
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Edge lit displays cannot dim "locally". I don't know why they suggest they can, but it defies the laws of physics. They can dim in a horizontal band across the screen, but I'm not entirely clear why that's very exciting, except in rare cases.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #8 of 20 Old 07-22-2011, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

LED TVs compared [ http://reviews.cnet.com/2795-6482_7-399.html


-----------ccfl LCd---------- edge lit led LCd--full array local dimming led LCd

Most edge-lit are side-lit (left and right).

When watching a bluray on a pro-calibrated TV in a dark room will show you its best performance, in a store you can not make a propper judgement.

The 909 is one of the best LCd's on the market right now.

base on this picture i would probably take the old school lcd over edge led
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post #9 of 20 Old 07-22-2011, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by martyball619 View Post

base on this picture i would probably take the old school lcd over edge led

Unfortunately, the "old" CCFL/LCDs are getting harder & harder to find, especially quality ones. The Sony EX500 & Samsung D610 are two of the best.
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post #10 of 20 Old 07-27-2011, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Omg just saw a 55 inch edge lit samsung tv and it's so clear and bright it blew me away. it's Alot clearer and brighter than my Sony full array I honestly don't see a difference in this 2 at all edge lit w local dimming vs full array same thing pq wise
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post #11 of 20 Old 07-27-2011, 07:58 PM
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edge lit LED TVs tend to look "good" in store but less so at home. No TV needs to (or should be) as bright as they are on store mode, and a tv being bright is not synonymous with "good." A real torture test for edge-lit LED sets is watching in a dark room with content such as a Blu-Ray disc with lots of dark scenes. Very dark scenes may appear blotchy or cloudy and you may even notice flashlighting and unevenness in the letterbox bars. A full matrix LED-LCD should not have problems with this type of content, in fact unless properly calibrated the blacks may be a bit too deep. Full-array LED costs more for a reason.

When I bought my LCD I chose a Sharp LE700 simply for it's full-matrix LED backlight. It does not do local dimming, but I bought it after comparing its almost-uniform backlighting to the unevenness of the Sony Z5100 I was going to get.

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post #12 of 20 Old 08-02-2011, 02:00 PM
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Is there any "benchmark" video or something for testing this sort of thing?

Like a video that says "if in viewing ths video you see [some description], then you have a local-dimming tv set with the local-dimming functionality active." And maybe the next one says "The following video exemplifies a key short-coming of locally-dimmed tvs called haloing. You should observe [some description]. This video should help you measure to what exent you experience haloing."

I guess I would be interested in a sort of benchmark like this in general for all sorts of issues that I hear about on this forum, just for fun, like banding and gridding and whatever, but in particular what I really want to know is if the local dimming on my tv is activated. I couldn't find a setting that seemed to be related, and I don't have the manual.

Is there a way to experimentally confirm that local-dimming is on? I have tried connecting to a computer with a completely black background and moving my mouse pointer around, but couldn't really tell anything... i was kind of expecting to see "blocks" of extra light following the mouse pointer around?

Thanks!
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post #13 of 20 Old 08-02-2011, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulacLancelot; View Post

Is there any "benchmark" video or something for testing this sort of thing?

Like a video that says "if in viewing ths video you see [some description], then you have a local-dimming tv set with the local-dimming functionality active." And maybe the next one says "The following video exemplifies a key short-coming of locally-dimmed tvs called haloing. You should observe [some description]. This video should help you measure to what exent you experience haloing."

I guess I would be interested in a sort of benchmark like this in general for all sorts of issues that I hear about on this forum, just for fun, like banding and gridding and whatever, but in particular what I really want to know is if the local dimming on my tv is activated. I couldn't find a setting that seemed to be related, and I don't have the manual.

Is there a way to experimentally confirm that local-dimming is on? I have tried connecting to a computer with a completely black background and moving my mouse pointer around, but couldn't really tell anything... i was kind of expecting to see "blocks" of extra light following the mouse pointer around?

Thanks!

You can easily see the difference between Local Dimming on/off, when set to on the blacks will be much better when watching a dark movie scene in a dark room.

On my sony Local Dimming is called LED Dynamic Control (off . low . high), on the samsung UND8000 its called Smart LED (off . low . standard . high) so there is probably the word LED involved and there is probably a Off . Low . High option.

If you're not shure if your TV is a Local Dimming, post the Brand,model number and size.
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post #14 of 20 Old 08-02-2011, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by martyball619 View Post

Omg just saw a 55 inch edge lit samsung tv and it's so clear and bright it blew me away. it's Alot clearer and brighter than my Sony full array I honestly don't see a difference in this 2 at all edge lit w local dimming vs full array same thing pq wise




I have a question regarding this, Can any full array locally dimmed television lets just say such as the 929 for the purpose of this conversation, achieve the same levels of brightness and pop, shall you desire that television to, as that of the samsung un55d8000 ???

I ask bout the brightness perhaps not for normal viewing conditions but possibly for when friends come over and you want that bright in your face colors for showing off your television
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post #15 of 20 Old 08-04-2011, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ETERNIA FOREVER View Post

I have a question regarding this, Can any full array locally dimmed television lets just say such as the 929 for the purpose of this conversation, achieve the same levels of brightness and pop, shall you desire that television to, as that of the samsung un55d8000 ???

I ask bout the brightness perhaps not for normal viewing conditions but possibly for when friends come over and you want that bright in your face colors for showing off your television

the full array supposely own the edge lit in every way
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post #16 of 20 Old 08-04-2011, 10:47 AM
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Full-array LED backlighting is definitely better, but also costs more, so it is really a question of whether the extra cost is justified (and different people will have different views on this, depending on their priorities).

And since sometimes the choice is also between different brands, that muddies the decision process further.

Folks who do a lot of watching in darkened rooms will see the most difference/benefit from full-array. On the other hand, some number of those same folks might also decide that plasma was even better in that environment, and therefore head in that direction.

In my case, I have an edge-lit LG 55LW5600, with their version of what I call "pseudo-local" dimming. I can see some modest amount of flashlighting occasionally, when watching in a totally darkened room. Actually, the "worst case" is when there is no content (i.e, while waiting for my BD player to start, or if the cable box is turned off), and the "no signal" screen is being displayed (black background, with a large white time display and a spinning LG logo...). I think this is because local dimming is temporarily turned off, and also possibly because the backlight setting reverts to a high setting when no signal is detected.

But with my current settings, with local dimming enabled, and the backlight turned down a fair amount, the black level performance is quite good when watching actual content.

My set is edge lit from the sides, and so the "pseudo-local" dimming is 8 rows x 2 columns. So the left and right halves of a row are controlled separately. Even with only 16 zones (versus 200 or more for a large full-array set), there is definite visible benefit. It does pretty well with most dark or partly-dark scenes of the actual content. Probably the worst case is having one or two lines of white text (e.g. a movie title screen), on a full black background. The rows having the titles will not be dimmed, whereas the rows above and below will be. So there may be a bit of flashlighting at the ends of those middle rows. Whereas true local dimming would dim all around the titles. In any case, it takes a pretty dark room to see any of this. (As an aside, you might think it makes more sense to edge-light from the top and bottom, as the distance is less. But when the edge-lit sets started to incorporate the pseudo-local dimming, they mostly moved to LEDs on the sides, as having horizontal dimming zones is more effective, in general, than vertical dimming zones. Especially for movies, with horizontal title text, as well as horizontal black bars on the top and bottom. Plus, with more and more HD TV content, the issue of vertical black bars on the sides has largely gone away.)

Paying just $300 more for full-array seems worth it to me. But that assumes that you view everything else about the two sets as equivalent. Within a given company's product line (assuming they make both edge-lit and full array), you might see a larger price difference. In the LG line, I think the step-up to full-array costs more than that, as it also comes with other extras. And in my case, I wanted their passive 3D, and the full-array passive implementation (LW9800 series) isn't out for a couple/few months yet. I think the same situation sort of applies to Vizio, since so far their passive-3D sets are just the edge-lit type, and they haven't propagated the passive approach over to their full-array sets yet. Sony of course is in the active-shutter 3D camp (at least so far), so that applies to all of their sets.

It is true that none of the edge-lit potential problems can be seen in a typical store environment. Not unless the store has a darkened viewing area (like a small, dedicated A/V store).
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post #17 of 20 Old 08-04-2011, 12:12 PM
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It's worth noting that within a given manufacturer, it's often really hard to go from one tech to the other.

Samsung only offers edge lighting. Sony offers a small number of full array sets. Sharp only offers full array on the 70s and the Elite 60. LG is the closest to providing more choices overall.

Anywhere, great analysis from rschleicher. Worth reading twice (I did).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #18 of 20 Old 08-04-2011, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ETERNIA FOREVER View Post

I have a question regarding this, Can any full array locally dimmed television lets just say such as the 929 for the purpose of this conversation, achieve the same levels of brightness and pop, shall you desire that television to, as that of the samsung un55d8000 ??? >>>>>>(...+1. +2. +3 maybe the lw9800 nano ? Can anyone post a lw6500 calibration settings to achieve the above??)<<<<<<<<br />
I ask bout the brightness perhaps not for normal viewing conditions but possibly for when friends come over and you want that bright in your face colors for showing off your television

...hey eternia forever , plus inside brackets above..on your 1st paragraph.
hear ya. Hear ya. Hear ya!!! I. Adjusted one at walmart, a 6000 samsung that people stopped and went nutz over... no dark room, no calibration tools not even probley natural picture.. people loved it could hear them talking. oO_Ohh ahh..." look at that!!" Dark scenes were awesome.. KAPOW!!!.. inkblack, vivid color, vibrant unnatural contrast, in your face eye candy...but is 2d and the equivalents panel in 3d is active. where's our, LG passive 3d eye candy panel? I want an "eye candy" panel ( ) in your face kapow.!!. Not like looking out the window natural .. when I want that I"ll dial it back, or actually look out the window.. l want "showoff" eyecandy ( that "pops" is escapism to the Max, for the likes of Thor, Greenlantern, How to train your dragon, Tangled, etc. I'll go natural with Howard's end, the Remains of the day, and Citizen Kane..give us the choice tho? I feel I know what eternia forever's talking about.. still want lg's passive tho. .. ( with eye candy, cartoon picture. Pop!!
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post #19 of 20 Old 08-04-2011, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's worth noting that within a given manufacturer, it's often really hard to go from one tech to the other.

Samsung only offers edge lighting. Sony offers a small number of full array sets. Sharp only offers full array on the 70s and the Elite 60. LG is the closest to providing more choices overall.

Anywhere, great analysis from rschleicher. Worth reading twice (I did).

....great analysis from rschleicher +1....thank you.. rschleicher, bet you could make a 6500, 9800 "pop" as could some of the other
Videophlles on this thread unfortunately ( for getting those setting's) l'll bet most, if not all, have the "acquired" natural picture, mindset.. group think for the knowledge- able..(I do Not mean group think as a negative. ) but like minded about your taste in quality. More sophisticated in appreciation of the standardized benchmark calibration settings. Others possibly see that as a starting point to test the limits of their panels technology capabilities, to push the limits of their visceral enjoyment.. much the same as sound went from mono, stereo quad , 5.1, 7.1 now all the anagrams to? I'm justifying my childlike (childish? ) enjoyment of the of the nonnatural surreal picture capabilities of these panels .
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post #20 of 20 Old 08-09-2011, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

You can easily see the difference between Local Dimming on/off, when set to on the blacks will be much better when watching a dark movie scene in a dark room.

On my sony Local Dimming is called LED Dynamic Control (off . low . high), on the samsung UND8000 its called Smart LED (off . low . standard . high) so there is probably the word LED involved and there is probably a Off . Low . High option.

If you're not shure if your TV is a Local Dimming, post the Brand,model number and size.

Thanks for the reply!

I have an LC-52XS1U. I am sure it is a local dimming tv, just was not sure I had local dimming turned on because I had a very hard time finding any blooming on my tv. In the end, I concluded that local dimming was on, and it is always on, since I couldn't find any setting to turn it off or anyting. I posted the details of how I came to that conclusion on the XS1 thread so as not to hijack this thread with talk of one particular tv.
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