Eliminating 2:3 pulldown judder on a 60Hz TV? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 09-01-2011, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Does sending out 1080i@60Hz from the BD player (and applying 2:3 pulldown to film sources) and then applying reverse 2:3 pulldown via the film mode on the TV result in 24 frames per second without any 2:3 pulldown judder? Can I use this method to get smoother motion on a 60Hz TV with film sources?
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post #2 of 15 Old 09-01-2011, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Does sending out 1080i@60Hz from the BD player (and applying 2:3 pulldown to film sources) and then applying reverse 2:3 pulldown via the film mode on the TV result in 24 frames per second without any 2:3 pulldown judder? Can I use this method to get smoother motion on a 60Hz TV with film sources?

Nope. Do the math -- 24 fps is never evenly divisible into 60 Hz.

Even if the BDP is configured to take native 1080p/24 video and impose 2:3 pulldown to convert to 1080i/60, the 60 Hz TV receives 1080i/60 and engages reverse 2:3 pulldown to convert back to 1080p/60 (with embedded 2:3 cadence). Basically, back to square one.

A 60 Hz TV must use 2:3 cadence (or frame interpolation) to match a 24 fps frame rate to its 60 Hz refresh rate. To eliminate 2:3 pulldown, get a TV capable of 72, 96, 120, or 240 Hz refresh rate.

AJ
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post #3 of 15 Old 09-01-2011, 11:36 PM
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Sony´s "24p True Cinema" in 60Hz models: 2:2 pulldown at 48Hz with 1080p/24 sources or not?...

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24p True Cinema mode

24p True Cinema mode enables you to enjoy films at their intended 24 fps (frames per second) when viewed using a 24p capable output device, such as a Blu-ray Disc player.

Motionflow 60Hz technology

Motionflow 60Hz technology allows you to enjoy movies and prime-time TV (film-based content) with a clarity and resolution in motion that will spoil you. Sony's Motionflow motion-compensation algorithm identifies film content and removes judder. That means you'll get a clearer picture during sweeping pans with reduced visible jerking or stuttering.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...&storeId=10151
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/spe...V4100_mksp.pdf

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post #4 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Nope. Do the math -- 24 fps is never evenly divisible into 60 Hz.

Even if the BDP is configured to take native 1080p/24 video and impose 2:3 pulldown to convert to 1080i/60, the 60 Hz TV receives 1080i/60 and engages reverse 2:3 pulldown to convert back to 1080p/60 (with embedded 2:3 cadence). Basically, back to square one.

A 60 Hz TV must use 2:3 cadence (or frame interpolation) to match a 24 fps frame rate to its 60 Hz refresh rate. To eliminate 2:3 pulldown, get a TV capable of 72, 96, 120, or 240 Hz refresh rate.

AJ

Wouldn't the TV actually convert the 1080i/60 back to 1080p/24 instead with the 2:3 pulldown and reverse 2:3 pulldown cancelling each other out to create 24fps with an even cadence?
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post #5 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 11:34 AM
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^^ theoretically yes but in reality it can be much more complicated

I doubt your player can telecine 24p. What it does is that it shows AABBBCCDDD in full frames while telecine is to split A,B,C,D into half frames/ fields such that A2B1 B1B2 B2C1 C2D1 D1D2. The TV has to detect the right cadence and could be difficult without proper flagging

DVDs are telecine encoded while blu ray are 24p. Simplistically speaking, if inverse telecine is easy we would just have 1080i24 as standard. interlacing is inherent a broadcast necessity due to bandwidth, though originally was also due to slow raster speed of the CRT
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post #6 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

^^ theoretically yes but in reality it can be much more complicated
I doubt your player can telecine 24p. What it does is that it shows AABBBCCDDD in full frames while telecine is to split A,B,C,D into half frames/ fields such that A2B1 B1B2 B2C1 C2D1 D1D2. The TV has to detect the right cadence and could be difficult without proper flagging

Well, I'm using the PS3 (outputting 1080i@60Hz) and my Samsung D550 LCD (set to Auto1 film mode). The source is BD Movies.
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post #7 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 11:39 AM
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Don't confuse Motion Flow (frame interpolation algorithims) which smooths out motion Judder from 24fps film with refresh rate conversion features such as 2:2 3:3 or to eliminate frame rate conversion Judder caused by 3:2 pulldown. You have to decide which of these features, if any, you want to implement.
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post #8 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

Don't confuse Motion Flow (frame interpolation algorithims) which smooths out motion Judder from 24fps film with refresh rate conversion features such as 2:2 3:3 or to eliminate frame rate conversion Judder caused by 3:2 pulldown. You have to decide which of these features, if any, you want to implement.

My Samsung only has the film mode setting which is used for reverse 2:3 pulldown. When sending 1080p@24Hz directly to the TV, I don't know whether 2:3 pulldown with a 60Hz refresh rate or 2:2 pulldown with a 48Hz refresh rate is used.
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post #9 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 12:08 PM
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2:2, 3:3, 4:4 pulldown is useless for LCD which is sample and hold. Higher Hz means MCFI.

If your TV is 24p capable, the display will not output at 60Hz
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post #10 of 15 Old 09-02-2011, 12:23 PM
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AFAIK only Plasma 3D TVs have variable refresh rates although perhaps Sony can refresh their LCDs at either 48 or 60fps. Your Samsung 60Hz TV will use 3:2 pulldown to convert 24FPs film content to 60 fps.
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post #11 of 15 Old 09-05-2011, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I compared what 1080i@60Hz, 1080p@60Hz, and 1080p@24Hz output from my PS3 looked like while watching a Blu-ray Disc movie. The first two were quite similar with 2:3 pulldown judder visible but 1080p@24Hz was noticeably smoother as if a different refresh rate was being used or some mild motion smoothing effect was being applied. The TV is the Samsung LN32D550.
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post #12 of 15 Old 10-26-2012, 05:39 PM
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Folks, I posted about this issue here first. I got the idea by using this blog post I happened to find while researching whether 24p was possible from Netflix (without a special player to output it).

I've now done enough A/B comparisons to say that I think it's absolutely right - even if the 'science' isn't on my side, setting my Philips BDP-3406 to 1080i, and my Samsung UN46EH6000 to Film Mode - Auto, no AMP, has made a HUGE difference in clarity - much more film-like to me. Subjectively, this will be the setting I keep. So tell me why I'm wrong? Because I've tested it against the old 24P traditional setup both with and without AMP, and there's MUCH more judder, and the picture seems less vibrant and more tiring to the eye the "correct" way. The UNxxEH6 series is 120hz, of course, if that matters. It looks better for just about every source I throw at it when I choose 1080i on the BR player - better on video files from a USB stick, better on blu-rays, and better on Netflix.

Anyone want to do their own comparisons?
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post #13 of 15 Old 10-26-2012, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bewlaybrothers View Post

Folks, I posted about this issue here first. I got the idea by using this blog post I happened to find while researching whether 24p was possible from Netflix (without a special player to output it).
I've now done enough A/B comparisons to say that I think it's absolutely right - even if the 'science' isn't on my side, setting my Philips BDP-3406 to 1080i, and my Samsung UN46EH6000 to Film Mode - Auto, no AMP, has made a HUGE difference in clarity - much more film-like to me. Subjectively, this will be the setting I keep. So tell me why I'm wrong? Because I've tested it against the old 24P traditional setup both with and without AMP, and there's MUCH more judder, and the picture seems less vibrant and more tiring to the eye the "correct" way. The UNxxEH6 series is 120hz, of course, if that matters. It looks better for just about every source I throw at it when I choose 1080i on the BR player - better on video files from a USB stick, better on blu-rays, and better on Netflix.
Anyone want to do their own comparisons?

I think you're right because when I asked this question last year, it was referencing a 60Hz set. Since the EH6000 is 120Hz, it could do 5:5 pulldown instead of 2:3 (though just because it can doesn't mean it will, but if it does look smoother this way than it probably is doing 5:5 pulldown instead of just 2:3 pulldown). Also, as long as your set de-interlaces 1080i properly (and does 2:3 reverse pulldown properly; in other words, film mode works right), there should be no negative side effects.
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post #14 of 15 Old 10-26-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I think you're right because when I asked this question last year, it was referencing a 60Hz set. Since the EH6000 is 120Hz, it could do 5:5 pulldown instead of 2:3 (though just because it can doesn't mean it will, but if it does look smoother this way than it probably is doing 5:5 pulldown instead of just 2:3 pulldown). Also, as long as your set de-interlaces 1080i properly (and does 2:3 reverse pulldown properly; in other words, film mode works right), there should be no negative side effects.

The more I watch with this setup, the more impressed I am. It's shocking to me how I went through so much trouble to get AMP just right, and all of this Samsung engineering turns out to have been unnecessary with a configuration I wouldn't have ever heard of unless I'd stumbled on it. If only I'd had this enabled for the months I've already owned this set! I hope other people who want to try it and may not have a Samsung 120hz have similar setting options to choose on their players and TV menus.
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post #15 of 15 Old 11-17-2012, 08:22 AM
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The only snafu I've run into on this (followup post) is that there are some Netflix streaming titles which send the Samsung UN46EH6000 into "resolution not supported" mode. This then requires the bluray player (the Philips BDP3406) to be power cycled and set to some other mode to get them to play, like "auto."

The titles so far are DR. WHO and BILLY CONNOLLY'S ROUTE 66. I wonder if it's a coincidence they both come from the UK, even though HD encoding for programs was in theory supposed to be the same everywhere? No idea if this would happen with another hardware source since I don't have another to test.
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