Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

OK, PS3 connected with HDMI directly to input 1 on elite, court room scene from the dark knight on every AV mode and NOTHING WHATSOEVER on the walls. Went through the scene over 10 times. THX was adjusted using Ken's exact settings, all other av modes were default. Again no shimmer, shake, or fluctuation on the walls. Hope this helps.

well then i would say you are in the clear. this scene would act up every time for me.

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ManWithAPlan View Post

Amen and hallelujah...the set ain't broken. As I suspected all along. I suspect folks had bad Color Space settings somewhere along the video path from source to destination. By connecting your PS3 directly to the Elite, you have proven the Elite out. The Elite itself is not the problem here. As you've proven. Now, the washed out colors is weird, something that deserves more troubleshooting. Can you reiterate what your Color Space settings are on the cable box that is delivering the football game???

-Brian

i would certainly jump on the colorspace bandwagon as being a possible issue, but i can't because even ota directly connected to the elite i had the same pulsing issues. ie; csi,2/1/2 men etc...

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

i wouldn't call qdeo horrific.

I would call the overall video section of the 809 horrific, not a specific chip or piece of it. The 100s of posts complaining about the darkening, the color issues, etc. on AVS alone speak volumes.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I would call the overall video section of the 809 horrific, not a specific chip or piece of it. The 100s of posts complaining about the darkening, the color issues, etc. on AVS alone speak volumes.

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Have you tried routing the cable box directly to the Elite as you did with the PS3 (same cable, same input)? Is the washed out look seen on the Blu Ray you watched, cable shows, just ESPN (720p) or pretty much everything? Have you tried setting the cable box to a constant 1080i output?

HDMI is directly connected to the elite. Color space on my cable stb is set at RGB. I haven't had a chance to try other channels outside of espn because there's no football games on other channels yet. The best way I can explain the washed out look is taking a picture with too much flash, really takes color away from the field and the players uniforms. Maybe it's the nature of LCD/led and football viewing. Every other programming looks stunning.

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Old 11-02-2011, 10:01 PM
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pinktri....sounds like you are using RGB PC which is intended for a computer system rather than RGB for a video system.

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Old 11-02-2011, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pinktri View Post


HDMI is directly connected to the elite. Color space on my cable stb is set at RGB. I haven't had a chance to try other channels outside of espn because there's no football games on other channels yet. The best way I can explain the washed out look is taking a picture with too much flash, really takes color away from the field and the players uniforms. Maybe it's the nature of LCD/led and football viewing. Every other programming looks stunning.

Doesn't this kind of sound like the low saturation issue that several are claiming to be related to the cyan issue?
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post


i would certainly jump on the colorspace bandwagon as being a possible issue, but i can't because even ota directly connected to the elite i had the same pulsing issues. ie; csi,2/1/2 men etc...

RF or EM interference?
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

pinktri....sounds like you are using RGB PC which is intended for a computer system rather than RGB for a video system.

Agreed. Pinktri, you really should NOT be using RGB, at least in the majority of sources I've seen on the Elite. Try YCbCr and tell us if it's any better. Also, turn off all video resolution processing in the cable box...you should send the Native resolution via HDMI, don't let the cable box upscale/deinterlace or anything. Some boxes will call it Native mode, where the native signal is passed without changing resolution to the TV. That's what you want, not a set resolution at all, but instead Native rate that will change as the broadcast signal changes from one channel to the next. Let the Elite do the processing of the virgin signal in your case (since I assume you don't have a top quality video processor in a receiver or some such thing). In this case, ESPN will get sent at 720p to the Elite, which will process it to the native rate of the set (1080p). NBC and CBS and many other channels are broadcast in 1080i, and those would be sent as is in Native mode to the Elite, which will have to deinterlace the 1080i and display the 1080p/60. Etc. etc. This will eliminate any artifacting that the cable box may be adding on its own. We generally don't want to trust the upscaling/deinterlacing of a cable box or DVR, as compared to the Elite or any other top quality TV circa 2011. Make sense?

Let us know those 2 items when you have tried them, and exactly what options show up under your HDMI or 'Video Output' settings on the cable box.

Thanks,
Brian
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Spiff69 View Post

Doesn't this kind of sound like the low saturation issue that several are claiming to be related to the cyan issue?

This is what I'm thinking. I only see a washed/haze image during football games so far

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Old 11-03-2011, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ManWithAPlan View Post

Agreed. Pinktri, you really should NOT be using RGB, at least in the majority of sources I've seen on the Elite. Try YCbCr and tell us if it's any better. Also, turn off all video resolution processing in the cable box...you should send the Native resolution via HDMI, don't let the cable box upscale/deinterlace or anything. Some boxes will call it Native mode, where the native signal is passed without changing resolution to the TV. That's what you want, not a set resolution at all, but instead Native rate that will change as the broadcast signal changes from one channel to the next. Let the Elite do the processing of the virgin signal in your case (since I assume you don't have a top quality video processor in a receiver or some such thing). In this case, ESPN will get sent at 720p to the Elite, which will process it to the native rate of the set (1080p). NBC and CBS and many other channels are broadcast in 1080i, and those would be sent as is in Native mode to the Elite, which will have to deinterlace the 1080i and display the 1080p/60. Etc. etc. This will eliminate any artifacting that the cable box may be adding on its own. We generally don't want to trust the upscaling/deinterlacing of a cable box or DVR, as compared to the Elite or any other top quality TV circa 2011. Make sense?

Let us know those 2 items when you have tried them, and exactly what options show up under your HDMI or 'Video Output' settings on the cable box.

Thanks,
Brian

Set top box is set at native with all the reso options checked. I changed back to YCbCr 444 and there's no difference. Earlier I thought the image improved but I did not try it with football footage, now I can see the switch to RGB and and new HDmI cable made no difference. I believe it's the cyan issue as all other channels and even sports center look fantastic

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Old 11-03-2011, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinktri View Post


HDMI is directly connected to the elite. Color space on my cable stb is set at RGB. I haven't had a chance to try other channels outside of espn because there's no football games on other channels yet. The best way I can explain the washed out look is taking a picture with too much flash, really takes color away from the field and the players uniforms. Maybe it's the nature of LCD/led and football viewing. Every other programming looks stunning.

If everything else is stunning, I'd say you have no issues. The variability in broadcast quality can be just as 'stunning' as the quality of the Elite's picture. I can watch one game on the YES network and see a stunning picture with lush greens and then switch to a different game on a different channel and see a mediocre broadcast.

I've always found ESPN's broadcasts to be very variable in quality (as they've been on my Kuro too) and a channel like YES to be very consistently high quality. You can only judge overall PQ with multiple sources and multiple channels. If you've ever read reviews on Blu Ray movies, even they're all over the map on PQ...even on a parameter like color saturation.

You might also want to try setting your box to a fixed 1080i output and see how that looks.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Spiff69 View Post


Doesn't this kind of sound like the low saturation issue that several are claiming to be related to the cyan issue?

Not if he describes all other sources and channels as 'stunning'. Not all channels/broadcasts are created equal.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWithAPlan View Post


Agreed. Pinktri, you really should NOT be using RGB, at least in the majority of sources I've seen on the Elite. Try YCbCr and tell us if it's any better. Also, turn off all video resolution processing in the cable box...you should send the Native resolution via HDMI, don't let the cable box upscale/deinterlace or anything. Some boxes will call it Native mode, where the native signal is passed without changing resolution to the TV. That's what you want, not a set resolution at all, but instead Native rate that will change as the broadcast signal changes from one channel to the next. Let the Elite do the processing of the virgin signal in your case (since I assume you don't have a top quality video processor in a receiver or some such thing). In this case, ESPN will get sent at 720p to the Elite, which will process it to the native rate of the set (1080p). NBC and CBS and many other channels are broadcast in 1080i, and those would be sent as is in Native mode to the Elite, which will have to deinterlace the 1080i and display the 1080p/60. Etc. etc. This will eliminate any artifacting that the cable box may be adding on its own. We generally don't want to trust the upscaling/deinterlacing of a cable box or DVR, as compared to the Elite or any other top quality TV circa 2011. Make sense?

Let us know those 2 items when you have tried them, and exactly what options show up under your HDMI or 'Video Output' settings on the cable box.

Thanks,
Brian

Brian, I thought he had already used 'native' output on the STB, but maybe that was another poster. The only problem using native output IMO, is the constant resynching the display must go through as you cycle from a 1080i channel to a 720p channel and back again. Historically I've found this flashing and delay annoying enough, that I've set my boxes to a fixed 1080i output and I've been happy. I'm not sure if it's the fact that the Motorola STB have decent enough scaling, but the slight difference in PQ between letting my Kuro/Elite do the conversion on 720p>1080p vs the STB, is not worth the annoyance for me of the delay & flashing. I know others feel differently, so it's just how it hits you.

For color space, I agree, I've always used YCbCr on all my non-PC components.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

If everything else is stunning, I'd say you have no issues. The variability in broadcast quality can be just as 'stunning' as the quality of the Elite's picture. I can watch one game on the YES network and see a stunning picture with lush greens and then switch to a different game on a different channel and see a mediocre broadcast.

I've always found ESPN's broadcasts to be very variable in quality (as they've been on my Kuro too) and a channel like YES to be very consistently high quality. You can only judge overall PQ with multiple sources and multiple channels. If you've ever read reviews on Blu Ray movies, even they're all over the map on PQ...even on a parameter like color saturation.

You might also want to try setting your box to a fixed 1080i output and see how that looks.

I agree with what you're saying but how come the feed on my 600m looks soooo good for the exact same game? Even my old first gen 720p panny in my bedroom looks much better. Can't wait for weekend so I can test more football games. Maybe it has something to do with the fluorescent lights because both games were played at night? I don't know.

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Old 11-03-2011, 05:53 AM
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Here's a really poor action shot from last night but you can see in the middle of the screen it's really white or high contrast looking. When viewed from my other tv there is no hint of this and the field, uniforms and helmets look deep.


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Old 11-03-2011, 06:17 AM
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If you are using advanced contrast turn that off and see if things improve but leave LD on. Also, check the gamma setting. If not at default move to default setting. Finally, in THX move backlight and contrast to defaults. Do each of above one at a time and see if you see an improvement. Good luck.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Brian, I thought he had already used 'native' output on the STB, but maybe that was another poster. The only problem using native output IMO, is the constant resynching the display must go through as you cycle from a 1080i channel to a 720p channel and back again. Historically I've found this flashing and delay annoying enough, that I've set my boxes to a fixed 1080i output and I've been happy. I'm not sure if it's the fact that the Motorola STB have decent enough scaling, but the slight difference in PQ between letting my Kuro/Elite do the conversion on 720p>1080p vs the STB, is not worth the annoyance for me of the delay & flashing. I know others feel differently, so it's just how it hits you.

For color space, I agree, I've always used YCbCr on all my non-PC components.

Yeah, I agree, there is the drawback of requiring a new HDMI signal sync every time you change channel. I was more focused on isolating this problem that he is seeing manifested during ESPN football games, not so much saying that he has to leave it that way long term. Just trying to see if we can isolate the issue. Long term, I agree that it's annoying to have the delay of HDMI sync each time the channel change changes rez. But that call can be made *after* determining if he can improve his situation picture quality wise with this apparent 'washed out' issue.

I'll admit, I'm fairly stumped by this latest issue, but trial and error will be the only way to discover the root cause.

-Brian
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

Here's a really poor action shot from last night but you can see in the middle of the screen it's really white or high contrast looking. When viewed from my other tv there is no hint of this and the field, uniforms and helmets look deep.

LED are meant to be brighter, hence why it would look different. I have followed the last couple of pages & you mentioned RGB. Does the Elite have a RGB Setting?
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by BFJ 96 View Post

LED are meant to be brighter, hence why it would look different. I have followed the last couple of pages & you mentioned RGB. Does the Elite have a RGB Setting?

I don't believe the elite has RGB setting.
I agree that LED's are brighter which might be the issue/non-issue all along. As said I'm normally a plasma guy so it could be me being sensitive to the new brightness.
All in all, I would say the Elite has pop and looks better than the plasma viewing HD non sports content but the plasma looks better than the LED with sports and SD viewing.

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Old 11-03-2011, 08:12 AM
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changing the topic for a second can anyone help me out? When using the apps such as youtube or netflix, how do you guys deal with audio when using an AVR. Do you use the optical audio out to an input on the AVR and switch the input on the AVR every time you use an app? Is there a better method? Also if I use the mini jack out on the elite to an analog cable on my AVR will it be 2.1 or will I be able to use my center channel 3.1?

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Old 11-03-2011, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

changing the topic for a second can anyone help me out? When using the apps such as youtube or netflix, how do you guys deal with audio when using an AVR. Do you use the optical audio out to an input on the AVR and switch the input on the AVR every time you use an app? Is there a better method? Also if I use the mini jack out on the elite to an analog cable on my AVR will it be 2.1 or will I be able to use my center channel 3.1?

I use the Digital Optical out from the Elite to the receiver and switch the input to one that I named "Elite" on my Anthem processor. The better, more elegant way to do it is to use the new HDMI Audio Return Channel that the Elite supports *only* on HDMI Input 1. But that only works if your receiver supports HDMI 1.4 and specifically supports Audio Return Channel (abbreviated ARC). My Anthem does not yet support it, though there is an upgrade coming in a month or two for it, which I'll jump all over, and then get rid of the Optical cable, as it will be redundant.

As for the Stereo audio out, it is simply 2-channel RCA stereo out, so you would miss out on any surround sound that Netflix or other apps *may* use. But if your receiver has surround sound processing modes, you should be able to tell the receiver to take the 2-channel audio in and "process" it to be whatever the receiver is capable of - 5.1, 2.1, 7.1, whatever. Depends on your receiver/pre-pro.

But I would always suggest using the straight Digital out rather than the analog stereo out. Just make sure you set the right digital out setting in the Elite - PCM vs. Dolby Digital.

-Brian
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:35 AM
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Big thanks Brian, maybe its time to upgrade my AVR! man it never stops!

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Old 11-03-2011, 09:05 AM
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Big thanks Brian, maybe its time to upgrade my AVR! man it never stops!

LOL! Upgrade-itis!
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:26 AM
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OK, PS3 connected with HDMI directly to input 1 on elite, court room scene from the dark knight on every AV mode and NOTHING WHATSOEVER on the walls. Went through the scene over 10 times. THX was adjusted using Ken's exact settings, all other av modes were default. Again no shimmer, shake, or fluctuation on the walls. Hope this helps.

Would you mind trying the same test, but using another video mode like Elite Pure?
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:32 AM
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Would you mind trying the same test, but using another video mode like Elite Pure?

I did use every av mode on default settings......"from the dark knight on every AV mode"

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Old 11-03-2011, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

HDMI is directly connected to the elite. Color space on my cable stb is set at RGB. I haven't had a chance to try other channels outside of espn because there's no football games on other channels yet. The best way I can explain the washed out look is taking a picture with too much flash, really takes color away from the field and the players uniforms. Maybe it's the nature of LCD/led and football viewing. Every other programming looks stunning.

I don't think you should be using RGB. I have read that most, if not all video is natively recorded in YCbCr format. Color is encoded as YCbCr on all DVDs and Blu-Ray. Setting your stb to RGB requires the stb to transcode the video into RGB, send it to the TV which then converts it back to YCbCr for processing, then back again to RGB prior to displaying. That's a lot of color conversions, each of which can introduce a bevy of errors.

Keep the video as clean as possible. If your stb has a YCbCr option, try that instead. If it has an additional YCbCr setting called Superwhite (that's what it's called on my PS3), you will want to enable that or you will see clipping. If you are using RGB, use the "limited" or "normal" setting (not full or expanded, which will lead to washed out colors). Since I don't know your stb, I'm using terms that I've seen on my other components.

Now I'm starting to wonder if the pulsing is dependent on whether the TV is receiving an RGB or YCbCr signal? Hmm...
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

Set top box is set at native with all the reso options checked. I changed back to YCbCr 444 and there's no difference. Earlier I thought the image improved but I did not try it with football footage, now I can see the switch to RGB and and new HDmI cable made no difference. I believe it's the cyan issue as all other channels and even sports center look fantastic

I believe your YCbCr should be set to 4/2/2.
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ManWithAPlan View Post

Yeah, I agree, there is the drawback of requiring a new HDMI signal sync every time you change channel. I was more focused on isolating this problem that he is seeing manifested during ESPN football games, not so much saying that he has to leave it that way long term. Just trying to see if we can isolate the issue. Long term, I agree that it's annoying to have the delay of HDMI sync each time the channel change changes rez. But that call can be made *after* determining if he can improve his situation picture quality wise with this apparent 'washed out' issue.

I'll admit, I'm fairly stumped by this latest issue, but trial and error will be the only way to discover the root cause.

-Brian

And some of us with Dish DVRs have no such option. We must select a default resolution, the highest of which is 1080i.
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist View Post

Would you mind trying the same test, but using another video mode like Elite Pure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist View Post

I believe your YCbCr should be set to 4/2/2.

My STB does not have the 422 options only 444. I do not have the pulsing issue either

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