Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 264 - AVS Forum
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post #7891 of 14538 Old 04-01-2012, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johny_Utah View Post

Wow just started going thru this thread again. I can't believe a TV this expensive would have so many issues. Members here going thru 3 sets. Just Wow.

well the defenders of this set will tell you, there isn't any abnormal amount of exchanges or higher % compared to others.

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post #7892 of 14538 Old 04-01-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post


well the defenders of this set will tell you, there isn't any abnormal amount of exchanges or higher % compared to others.

Defenders... Well I see why you would say that. However it would beg the argument that any other recent set has had its own share of returns..vt30, d8000, 929.7 series sharp. The list goes on and on. If its based on the rationale that a high end set like should have less returns then ok maybe I agree but even high end has problems.

Listen even after 3 sets I still think its the best set out there today. I dont base my purchase on cost but what it delivers to me in overall satisfaction.

But like everything in life, to each is own on how you set your value meter
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post #7893 of 14538 Old 04-01-2012, 10:36 PM
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I really don't want to fan these flames because I can't be sure that the Sharp Elites have an unusually high number of returns / exchanges. But given how few have been sold, it actually does seem that the return / exchange rate is high. Is that because for all that money people are more demanding or is because the TV has a high defect rate? I don't know.

But the rate of return / exchange is up there... And "for all that money" it probably should be vanishingly small.

That said, it doesn't affect my opinion it's the best TV money can buy.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #7894 of 14538 Old 04-01-2012, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really don't want to fan these flames because I can't be sure that the Sharp Elites have an unusually high number of returns / exchanges. But given how few have been sold, it actually does seem that the return / exchange rate is high. Is that because for all that money people are more demanding or is because the TV has a high defect rate? I don't know.

But the rate of return / exchange is up there... And "for all that money" it probably should be vanishingly small.

What is your source for these statistics? Are you basing it on the small sample of people who post their experiences on AVS or the microcosm of your own local store? Or have you actually seen published numbers that indicate the exact sales volume and rates of return/exchange of the 60" and 70" Elite TVs? If you're basing your assertions on real numbers, what is the source? Because I'd sure love to know how many Elites were sold, just like I'd love to know how many Kindles have been sold.

Too bad neither Amazon.com nor Sharp actually publish these numbers. But you know the numbers. OK.

So far my Elite hasn't exhibited any of the major symptoms that dominate this forum. The only issue I've ever seen was some brief DSE on one episode of Two and a Half Men. That's it! No pulsing, no suddenly dead TV, no cyan mismatch that I or my calibrator could see, no DSE (aside from that one time), and no vertical/horizontal lines that don't belong.

So am I in the minority, or am I in the majority? One thing I know for sure: no one knows the answer to that except Sharp, and they're not talking.
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post #7895 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 12:30 AM
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I sure hope I have no issues. I have always had great luck with these things. Fingers crossed. Not pointing this towards anyone and just a comment as I see it other threads. The power of the net is unreal. Someone sees an issue and all of a sudden like swine flu multiple posters all of a sudden see the same thing and paranoia sets in and sets are returned. Wonder how many sets are returned that perhaps was a small issue on a certain show or Blu-ray? Perhaps a return was not really justified? Who knows.

The power of the Internet can do strange things.

Can't wait till Saturday to get my 70. Spent all day moving my entire HT set-up, my salt water tank. Ug Beat but the spot is ready and waiting. An added bonus is I have never had a display mounted on wall. That should really allow my speakers to breath and hope for improved imaging with no display in between. Excited just for that.

Lastly, I popped in to Magnolia yesterday and they were playing Dark Knight on the 70. Just freakin jaw dropping. Never seen that movie look so good.

Saturday should be around soon I hope!!

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post #7896 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 03:44 AM
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I think logic would indicate that those that frequent AVS are not 'mainstream' buyers. Hardly anyone I know is even aware of the existence of this forum. With that said, IMO, the typical AVS member is more passionate about video & audio and more likely to spot issues as well as appreciate the best equipment out there.

However, I think this same group is both more anal about issues (even minor ones) and more susceptible to being influenced by issues that others see. Even though the overwhelming majority of owners have never seen the cyan error, many are upset it even exists. Of course it seems more non-owners are upset by these things, but that's another story.

So what does all this mean relative to the exchange ratio? IMO it simply means you can't judge 'average' from this relatively small AVS group. You can judge 'average for AVS owners', but that's about it. In actuality, even that theory may be questionable. What percentage of AVS members buy a set like the Elite, fall in love with it, and simply never return to this thread?

IOW making any kind of definitive statement about return ratio is about as non-scientific as you can get.
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post #7897 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 05:01 AM
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I was looking forward to the next Elite till i just read an article discussing Apple retina display being incorporated in future HDTV - i'm calling it The Apple Elite.
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post #7898 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 07:56 AM
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Apparently umr's review has been removed? Either that or the link was bad.
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post #7899 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERosenbrg View Post

What is your source for these statistics? Are you basing it on the small sample of people who post their experiences on AVS or the microcosm of your own local store?

I know this confuses you -- and I can tell by your tone that I've already pressed some of your hot buttons so you'll ignore everything that follows in the post anyway, but I'm going to write it for other people -- but we do know a good deal about how few of these TVs are sold.

Without revealing to you information that if I shared the source of, people would get into trouble, there are ways of extracting data from people that I -- as a long-time businessperson with an understanding of the volumes in the industry might be aware of that you might not.

It's very popular on the internet for people to not like something reported by someone and to play a game of shoot the messenger. The funny thing is, there is nothing controversial about the following:

Sharp sells a fairly tiny number of Elites. "Success" for a product line like this is measured in numbers below 100,000 annually. Some people at AVS think that last year Sharp sold gigantic number of 70" TVs, for example. And, by historical standards, they most certainly did. What did those gigantic numbers look like? Something below a quarter million. Do I know the precise figure? No, I don't. Do I know for certain it wasn't anywhere near a half million or more? Yes, I most certainly do. And the ability to get that fact didn't require talking with anyone at Sharp, they basically handed out the information if you knew were to look.

There are also a number of well-known rules of thumb about pricing ratios and portions of sales. If, for example, I offer a TV for $1000 and a similar TV for $2000 with more features, the cheaper one doesn't only outsell the more expensive by 2x, but by far more. If I want to sell the $2000 TV at anything more than a few percent of my total mix, I typically need to add an even more expensive TV to the mix.

Sharp moved the vast majority of its 70" displays at $3000 or less retail last year. They were in pretty much every big-box CE store nationally, Sears, warehouse clubs, etc. It was also sold online by Amazon and countless other dot-com retailers.They were everywhere TVs were sold. The Elite? Where was that for sale? More or less not online, at a few hundred specialty CE retailers nationally, through a portion of the custom-install channel and at some high-end big-box stores like Magnolia/BB, et al.

Simply on distribution alone, you can imagine the ceiling on the Elite -- again, I don't have to imagine, but you can. This doesn't make the Elite bad, it makes it relatively hard to buy. Then you add the fact that the 60" Elite was selling for up to 4x what a Sharp-branded 60" LCD was elsewhere and the 70" Elite was selling for up to 3x.

You know, we talk of the AVS bubble: "People here are more likely to return than other people." Maybe in some cases that's true although there are reasons to doubt how powerful that effect really is (some are good reasons), but it cuts both ways. People outside the bubble see an $8000 pricetag on a TV and they are done. Especially at Best Buys where it's hard to negotiate on price. They just ignore such a product, they don't find Chris @ Cleveland Plasma and work their way down to $6500 (or whatever Chris can sell it at to make money).

At one point, Suzook had a friend report to him how few Elites had sold in Florida over some period. The number was so small I speculated that Sharp would have to cancel the line if that was going on elsewhere. (Again, I'm sticking with information all of you can find as opposed to thinks I might know that are based on things I can't share.)

If you take standard ratios of sales based on the price increments of the Elites, you account for the reduced distribution vs. the Sharp line, you use publicly available data, etc., you can approximate the total Elite sales for 2011 fairly evenly and your magnitude is, again, the tens of thousands. I'd rather not dive deeper into that number except to say this:

1) The Elite sold for only a small part of the year last year and therefore even if it was destined to sell 100K units (it wasn't), the partial year would massively depress that total.

2) Sharp has stated they are happy with the numbers they've sold. I have no reason to doubt this. If I forecast X and sell X, I'm happy. If I sell 1.1X, I'm really happy. I have no idea what the original goal was. I have reasons to believe they did slightly exceed the original goal.

Quote:


Or have you actually seen published numbers that indicate the exact sales volume and rates of return/exchange of the 60" and 70" Elite TVs? If you're basing your assertions on real numbers, what is the source? Because I'd sure love to know how many Elites were sold, just like I'd love to know how many Kindles have been sold.

So I have no aggregate info on the exchange rate, I have a lot of anecdotal information. Anecdotes get a bad rap because one of them is useless. It's a "data point". But a data point is not entirely useless once you start collecting a bunch of them. Suddenly, you have the makings of data.

Incidentally, I don't care how many Kindles have been sold, but when you're a giant company like Amazon and you keep ducking the question, it's safe to assume the number is lower than the most optimistic estimates. I'll leave it at athat.
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Too bad neither Amazon.com nor Sharp actually publish these numbers. But you know the numbers. OK.

See, that's just provocative garbage. I'm not taking your bait.

There are things I know that you don't know. (I'm sure the opposite is also true.) When I don't know something someone else knows, I don't waste a lot of time attempting to impugn their credibility. You do. Enjoy it.
Quote:


So far my Elite hasn't exhibited any of the major symptoms that dominate this forum. The only issue I've ever seen was some brief DSE on one episode of Two and a Half Men. That's it! No pulsing, no suddenly dead TV, no cyan mismatch that I or my calibrator could see, no DSE (aside from that one time), and no vertical/horizontal lines that don't belong.

Good, that's an anecdote.
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So am I in the minority, or am I in the majority? One thing I know for sure: no one knows the answer to that except Sharp, and they're not talking.

And there, again, you are wrong. People besides Sharp do in fact know. In some ways, they know better. It took weeks for Sharp to begin to get their support ramped properly. Dealers already had reports back from customers on the problems with the TV.

By the way, you are in the majority in that the majority haven't returned their TVs. What the question is asking is not that, however. It's asking whether the return / problem rate is above normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think logic would indicate that those that frequent AVS are not 'mainstream' buyers. Hardly anyone I know is even aware of the existence of this forum. With that said, IMO, the typical AVS member is more passionate about video & audio and more likely to spot issues as well as appreciate the best equipment out there.

Yes, and yet anyone who buys the Elite at Best Buy for $8000 that isn't absolutely delighted is also likely to get on the phone and demand a refund. i was out car shopping yesterday, and my dealer told me interesting stories of people demanding buybacks for cars-gone-wrong. When you shell out real coin, you demand near perfection.

Did a non-AVSer ever see the pulsing? Of course. Did a few of them send back the TV because of it? Yes. (Note, my guess is that no one without access to the internet community has returned the TV for the "cyan error", but I'm confident the undersaturation problem some of you had saw/had led to some number of returns.)
Quote:


However, I think this same group is both more anal about issues (even minor ones) and more susceptible to being influenced by issues that others see.

So here I agree with you 1000%. I liken it to sick building syndrome and it runs rampant on the forums.

But when people actually send their TVs back, they send them back. And I'm not sure we've seen evidence here of people sending their TVs back for fictitious reasons.
Quote:


So what does all this mean relative to the exchange ratio? IMO it simply means you can't judge 'average' from this relatively small AVS group. You can judge 'average for AVS owners', but that's about it. In actuality, even that theory may be questionable. What percentage of AVS members buy a set like the Elite, fall in love with it, and simply never return to this thread?

Sorry, Ken, we're going to part company on these conclusions. You can judge. Every TV gets picked apart here if it has any merit at all. You can judge relatively to other TVs. It's also not reasonable to assume that AVSers act differently on a given TV. If we look at the character / nature of well-trafficked AVS threads, we could discern with very high accuracy the relative frequency of problems between sets and the relative satisfaction levels. People who are happy with the Elite and never return should be no more or less likely to return than people who are happy with the Sony HX929 or the Panasonic VT30.

We learn a lot from who returns, from the absolute number of reported complaints compared to sales volumes (with the massive caveat that sales volumes here are skewed vs. the norm).
Quote:


IOW making any kind of definitive statement about return ratio is about as non-scientific as you can get.

Here's my statement: "it actually does seem that the return / exchange rate is high."

I'd hardly call that definitive. I'd call it intentionally laden with wiggle words.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #7900 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 11:35 AM
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^ Wow, must have hit a nerve. I feel really bad that you just spent the last three hours writing that response which - in a nutshell - says you don't know the real sales or return figures, but that you can figure them out based on conjecture. Which proves my point, BTW.
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post #7901 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ERosenbrg View Post

^ Wow, must have hit a nerve. I feel really bad that you just spent the last three hours writing that response which - in a nutshell - says you don't know the real sales or return figures, but that you can figure them out based on conjecture. Which proves my point, BTW.

I beleive he has stated before and here that he has direct sources who are part of the providers of information but cannot reveal them.
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post #7902 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

I beleive he has stated before and here that he has direct sources who are part of the providers of information but cannot reveal them.

I could mysteriously assert the same thing (that I have secret direct sources), but it wouldn't be true for me either...even though you couldn't disprove that I have lunch with a couple of accountants and mid-level executives from Sharp on a regular basis, if I wanted to claim that!
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post #7903 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 12:13 PM
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Ahhh! Virtual reality is a great thing ... excuse me - I think I hear Angelina calling ...
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post #7904 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERosenbrg View Post

I could mysteriously assert the same thing (that I have secret direct sources), but it wouldn't be true for me either...even though you couldn't disprove that I have lunch with a couple of accountants and mid-level executives from Sharp on a regular basis, if I wanted to claim that!

You seem to have had very little to say over the past four plus years here at AVS, I'm surprised that you have so much to say about Rogo's comments now. Rogo, after all, has been offering his take on things quit frequently since 1999.
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post #7905 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 12:38 PM
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^Just felt like chiming in since I joined the Elite club. And the fact that rogo's a prolific contributor doesn't mean his information is accurate and not just guesswork.
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post #7906 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ERosenbrg View Post

^Just felt like chiming in since I joined the Elite club. And the fact that rogo's a prolific contributor doesn't mean his information is accurate and not just guesswork.

Guesswork, as you call it, may have more value from some "guessers" than from others. I wonder why you, as a new owner, are concerned about the relatively low number of Sharp Elites that have been sold at what amounts to a high price -- especially if they are bought from BB.
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post #7907 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 01:26 PM
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I appreciate the info published here and I find it informative. Thanks.

It may be that the return rate is high for this set. Not sure and this will be my first Sharp ever so I hope things go well.

I do hope that there are enough sales to sustain this line. Price related or not it would be a real shame if we had yet another failure in the market at this end.

And the price is slowly dropping. I think they are near that psychological price point where some potential buyers may give it a try.

The standalone Magnolia here in CA had a posted price of around $7K and I got it for a bit less. I know it's still a lot but when retail gets to $6999 or less it might help with sales and we are close based on my findings this past week.

Everytime I go in they have something different playing on the set. I have a delivery date of Saturday and a wall install of Wednesday. Was trying to work that out today with no luck but the promo today was a spinning gold horsehead with an all black background. I know a promo but so very very impressive. The best picture quality I have seen.

Maybe $6999 wil change some things with volume.

Rick

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post #7908 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 02:05 PM
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I've had the 60" Elite since October and have a watched a healthy dose of blu-rays on it (along with some football and basketball). Long story short, I couldn't be happier with this TV I haven't noticed any of the issues that others have mentioned.
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post #7909 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

I beleive he has stated before and here that he has direct sources who are part of the providers of information but cannot reveal them.

It also only took me about 20 minutes to write the post, not 3 hours.. I could tell him how, but if I told him....

Anyway, the fact that I spent the time and he failed to glean that I was trying to teach someone how they could actually learn things for themselves and his response was "neener neener" basically says all one needs to know.

As my previous posts make clear, I have only a sense on the actual return rates, but I fundamentally dispute the claim that we can't get a pretty good idea. Words like "seem high" are designed to avoid making assertions, however, when they can't be confirmed.

As htwaits post says: "Guesswork, as you call it, may have more value from some "guessers" than from others." And when I'm doing nothing but sophisticated guessing, as with the return rate issue, I label it pretty clearly (or at least I try).

It's probably worth reminding people that Sharp is handling customers well here in terms of exchanges and refunds. It's because of that that I don't say anything like "don't buy this TV" but rather that "it's the best TV money can buy". By contrast, you don't find me telling people to go spend money on high-end Samsungs -- which are more definitively problematic than some other brands -- regardless of features, aesthetics, performance. I don't think those Samsungs are worth a headache, let alone a migraine. The Sharp Elite, on the other hand, might be worth suffering a risk of a small blow to the head given where you can end up.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #7910 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 03:40 PM
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I have no idea how many Elites have been sold but the manager of a BB Magnolia store here in Phoenix told me last month that they have sold a total of three 70"ers and that they never sell below the $7999 price. Maybe that's why they've only sold three
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post #7911 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 03:48 PM
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I am considering purchasing one of these TVs. In the brief look I have taken at this thread, I have seen the following issues enumerated:
  • Cyan color bug
  • Backlight pulsing in certain situations

I see that Sharp released a new firmware revision last week to address the backlight issue. Is that now resolved?

Are there other issues?

Thanks for your help.
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post #7912 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

You seem to have had very little to say over the past four plus years here at AVS, I'm surprised that you have so much to say about Rogo's comments now. Rogo, after all, has been offering his take on things quit frequently since 1999.

Rogo is a respected member of the AVS community, and has been very accurate on a whole host of topics. I trust his judgment based on his prior contributions. Lets avoid trying to attack people's character. I for one am very glad he posts here.
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post #7913 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I have no idea how many Elites have been sold but the manager of a BB Magnolia store here in Phoenix told me last month that they have sold a total of three 70"ers and that they never sell below the $7999 price. Maybe that's why they've only sold three

With so much room in the pricing, they deserve to have only sold 3. Talk about unyielding.
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post #7914 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galvin View Post

I am considering purchasing one of these TVs. In the brief look I have taken at this thread, I have seen the following issues enumerated:
  • Cyan color bug
  • Backlight pulsing in certain situations

I see that Sharp released a new firmware revision last week to address the backlight issue. Is that now resolved?

Are there other issues?

Thanks for your help.

It is largely resolved. Some say they can still see a bit of it if they really look for it, but it's just a shadow (bad pun?) of what it was. There is yet another update coming to take care of the rest of what remains.

For many of us, we never had an issue in either THX or ISF modes. So for that group this fix was more 'interesting' than curative.
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post #7915 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottyb09 View Post

I've had the 60" Elite since October and have a watched a healthy dose of blu-rays on it (along with some football and basketball). Long story short, I couldn't be happier with this TV I haven't noticed any of the issues that others have mentioned.

Now are you in the majority or minority of AVS Elite owners? Or does that mean you are in the minority or majority of Elite owners period? Or does it mean you're in a representative or non-representative sampling? Or does it mean absolutely, positively nothing?

Sorry guys (and Mark) I just believe all this return rate conjecture is just that, conjecture. We can probably come up with as many theories as we like, all of them unable to be 100% substantiated. Until we get the real scoop from Sharp Accounting, we'll never truly know the accurate answer. But then again, what was the question?

The real question is (and the only question that matters) as an Elite owner are you happy or unhappy with your purchase? To that end it makes not one bit of difference to you whether you're in a representative or unrepresentative sampling.

Color me happy, very happy.

Now I'm crossing my fingers we don't descend into another 100 pages of 'cyan type' mire.
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post #7916 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:20 PM
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Rogo is a respected member of the AVS community, and has been very accurate on a whole host of topics. I trust his judgment based on his prior contributions. Lets avoid trying to attack people's character. I for one am very glad he posts here.

+1 , I trust his judgement 100% I been following his posts for years & I have learned a lot from them.

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #7917 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:25 PM
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This cyan issue means nothing to me to be honest. I don't see any problems with any colors ever on my display, in fact to my eyes this display is producing some of the best colors ive ever seen on any set I've had in my home. Skin tones for me have been the real stand out. That said, I would still like a fix for those that are affected by it. Now the issue that I feel is more of a real problem is the "pulsing" issue, not because it's affecting my personal viewing, (I use personal settings that get rid of it.) but I know that for some sets it's worse than others. And for these folks that own these sets I know how distracting this pulsing could be. I've put my set in a mode where it is very obvious, and I was very annoyed by it. The first firmware update that was sent to address this issue has indeed helped a lot, and it shows me that Sharp is on he right track to getting rid of it, but it still needs more work. We already know that Sharp is going to address this again, so I'm very confident it will be very close to or completely gone when it is released. All in all, I am very pleased with my X5, so much so that I am considering buying another to replace my XBR in the other room. Of course I'm just waiting and hoping for a bit of a price drop.
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post #7918 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:34 PM
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I returned my Elite...to the on position when I got home today. I'm sure I'm in the majority

After seeing all the various current HD providers, I really, really miss Voom
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post #7919 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:35 PM
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I returned my Elite...to the on position when I got home today. I'm sure I'm in the majority

Lol
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post #7920 of 14538 Old 04-02-2012, 04:58 PM
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I returned my Elite...to the on position when I got home today. I'm sure I'm in the majority

Was it cyan to be pulsed ?

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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