Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Airgas, does your replacement 60 have worse DSE than your original?

yes....

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post #992 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

This is what I was saying before, it's almost as if with solid objects in dimly lit scenes with no detail, the IVC is 'looking' for something to grab on to and apparently can't find it.

Seems like that is what could be happening. Or the LED's are attempting to dim to meet the brightness of the scene itself (texture mapping algorythm?) where it doesn't know how to calculate the shadows.

* Firmware update possible?
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post #993 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

it should be interesting to see what happens when you unlock the isf modes. i plan on having chad b here next month to calibrate. unless i decide to send it back. it is odd that Ken and i are the only ones reporting this. there is know question though that we both have observed this issue. i guess it must suck to have our eyes...

Tell me about it! I can't believe we're the only ones that have it on a total of 3 panels. Strains the credibility. My guess is they all have it and either people aren't sensitive enough to see it or just haven't seen the right material to induce the effect.
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post #994 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

A couple of comments. Since no one other than Ken and Airgas seem to notice this it might be that you two are incredibly unlucky in getting the sets you did or that you are especially sensitive to the problem. The other point is that when I calibrated mine (ld off, THX mode, Choma 5 and Chroma pure Pro) I saw a lot of instability in the white balance below ~30%. Meter had no problem with these levels on a 5 year old Panny. Finally did it by eye using a 20 set grayscale pattern. Whether the instability as measured by meter has any effect on what you see would require opinion of someone with more knowledge than me.

Any reason you would have attempted the calibration with LD off? You'd never get the blacks that make these panels so engaging.
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post #995 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

yes....

Man, I hoped you weren't going to say that!
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post #996 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by shingdaz View Post

Seems like that is what could be happening. Or the LED's are attempting to dim to meet the brightness of the scene itself (texture mapping algorythm?) where it doesn't know how to calculate the shadows.

* Firmware update possible?

We're hoping!
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post #997 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

yes....

I plan on having material ready when they deliver the replacement to check out DSE. If it's significantly worse, I may keep the original panel and let them take the new one back. Bad DSE really does bother me and it was one of the major improvements I got going from the 929 to the Elite.
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post #998 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 08:20 AM
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This issue and conversation reminds me of when the first crop of projectors shipped with DI's and had bad pulsing when the DI couldn't "decide" what part of the picture it was supposed to lock on and react to. I sort of dropped out of front PJ world so am not sure how that all shook out (though I do observe that some mfrs like JVC still always quote a native CR, without engaging a DI).

On the Sharp panels under discussion here, Ken's assessment - that the IVC is "thinking" and can't figure out how to resolve the frames in question - seems to make sense.

I wonder though about how addressable it is on the software side because a fix might have unintended spillover effects into scenes that currently work fine. I guess Sharp just needs to further fine tune the algorithm.

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post #999 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 08:46 AM
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Could someone post pics comparing THX mode and ISF calibrated mode?

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post #1000 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

To answer your question on the ramping of the backlight control, yes it does have a dramatic effect on the picture from the highest to the lowest levels much as it does in any traditional LCD I've ever owned. Where it doesn't have much of an impact is in it's effect on the pulsing issue.

I don't see much of a difference in minimum light levels in THX mode when you properly adjust say, the non-THX movie mode. At default levels perhaps (I don't recall), but not after adjustment.

As far as 8 bit vs 16 bit processing goes, it doesn't explain why, when the local dimming is turned off, the issue completely disappears regardless of picture mode. I'm sure the turning off of local dimming doesn't engage 16 bit processing. Otherwise I'd see validity in your theory.

At to differences in sensitivity explaining why I don't see it in THX mode and Airgas does, yes, that could certainly be. But even there it doesn't explain why Airgas is not at least seeing a lessening of the effect. Frankly I'm also surprised more people aren't reporting this, but it could go back to the 'sensitivity' issue.

At any rate I'm hoping that a software update can put this issue to rest.

I hope that a software update can solve this problem too, as I am interested in the set and would like to see how things play out.

To clarify, when I mentioned 8-bit vs. 16-bit I wasn't referring to picture processing, but to PWM dimming drivers (if they are used in the Elite), which I think could possibly not be functioning when local dimming is off. Think about it, with local dimming turned off the backlight is set at a fixed value and no additional dimming/brightening occurs so why would the drivers' processing be in use? When local dimming is turned on, however, real time, variable dimming is occurring and the drivers' processing would presumably be needed.

Ken have you and/or Airgass paused the affected content precisely when the perceived flickering/pulsing is occurring? If so, what happens in regards to the flicker/pulsing?

I'm not sure if this has already been checked but are you and/or Airgass able to see flicker with any static test patterns such as low APL pluge, high APL, average APL, greyscale ramps, chroma and luma burts, both full field and windowed grey scale and color patterns of different stimulus and color?
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post #1001 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Cleveland, can you explain further what you've said here? Two Elites? What hardware updates?

A person had mentioned the Elite may need a hardware update in the future. I do not agree or disagree with this statement, I am not the Tech master

I did comment back, and I had mentioned that in the past 7 years I know of only two units that had hardware updates. Hardware updates are rare, but do happen. The Panasonic plasma's of this year and the Samsung UN55B850 are the only units I am aware of that had hardware updates. Point is harware updates are rare.
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post #1002 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbonacci View Post

To clarify, when I mentioned 8-bit vs. 16-bit I wasn't referring to picture processing, but to PWM dimming drivers (if they are used in the Elite), which I think could possibly not be functioning when local dimming is off. Think about it, with local dimming turned off the backlight is set at a fixed value and no additional dimming/brightening occurs so why would the drivers' processing be in use? When local dimming is turned on, however, real time, variable dimming is occurring and the drivers' processing would presumably be needed.

Yes, that makes perfect sense and it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

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Originally Posted by cjbonacci View Post

Ken have you and/or Airgass paused the affected content precisely when the perceived flickering/pulsing is occurring? If so, what happens in regards to the flicker/pulsing?

The pulsing area moves briefly and then stops completely. The paused frame then looks perfectly normal with no fluctuation.
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post #1003 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

A person had mentioned the Elite may need a hardware update in the future. I had mentioned back that in the past 7 years I know of only two units that had hardware updates. Hardware updates are rare, but do happen. The Panasonic plasma's of this year and the Samsung UN55B850 are the only units I am aware of that had hardware updates.

Thanks Chris, that's an interesting point and I'm sure not an inexpensive proposition for the manufacturer.
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post #1004 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cjbonacci View Post

My concern is that this may be a hardware issue and not a software problem, hence the request for the test.

Let me explain...I work in broadcast television as a technical director and recently did the lighting design on a studio which incorporated a new Sharp 70" LED LCD (not the Elite and not a local dimming set), in the background. To match the brightness of the Sharp with the studio lights I had to reduce the backlight setting of the Sharp significantly. When I did this the Sharp flickered noticably to the camera, but not the human eye. Also, the more I reduced the backlight setting the more severe the flicker became as the frequency of the LED's in the Sharp seemed to decline, as measured by the camera. I was able to adjust for this, however, using the "clear scan" settings (an electronic form of shutter control) in the camera until the flicker went away, as seen by the camera. Additionally, the flicker was still present and also varied (only while adjusting the backlight) when I sent a still image to the LCD. To me this may rule out software, processing, etc. and could be more indicative of something to do with hardware.

If Sharp uses similar hardware (PWM power supply, perhaps) across models my worry is that the Elites, with local dimming technology, are capable of dimming the LED backlights even further (depending on content) then the model I used, to the point where the frequency of the LED backlights in highly-dimmed areas of the screen, once they hit a threshold, can become perceptible to the human eye, depending on some variable factors, such as low APL picture content, for example, as you have witnessed. If this is the case, I don't know if the frequency of the LED's could be increased through a firmware update while still maintaining the picture characteristics of the Elite, or if this is ultimately a limitation of the hardware itself.

This is just a thought, but it would be nice to know if there is any validity to it.

Are you sure that this was caused by the reduction of the backlight setting?

While it is not a Sharp, my Sony HX900 which is a local-dimming LCD that uses a Sharp LCD panel (and possibly backlight unit?) has an obvious flicker on cameras when the scanning backlight is activated (motionflow "clear" and "clear plus") but it disappears entirely when you disable the scanning backlight. (motionflow off, or on one of the lower settings)

To the eye the picture is completely stable, even in your periphery, regardless of the motionflow setting, though you can tell when it is on if you are in a dark room and move your hand in front of you eyes, as there is a slight strobe effect. For what it's worth, I am very sensitive to flicker—I've seen it on every plasma I've ever encountered and even on CCFL LCDs—so even though it's showing up on camera, it isn't visible. I do sometimes find that late at night in a dark room I want to disable the scanning backlight as it still seems to be more restful on the eyes.


I'm sure there is probably a setting on the elite that determines whether backlight scanning is enabled or disabled. (backlight scanning improves motion handling because of the "strobe effect" it creates)
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post #1005 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbonacci View Post

I hope that a software update can solve this problem too, as I am interested in the set and would like to see how things play out.

To clarify, when I mentioned 8-bit vs. 16-bit I wasn't referring to picture processing, but to PWM dimming drivers (if they are used in the Elite), which I think could possibly not be functioning when local dimming is off. Think about it, with local dimming turned off the backlight is set at a fixed value and no additional dimming/brightening occurs so why would the drivers' processing be in use? When local dimming is turned on, however, real time, variable dimming is occurring and the drivers' processing would presumably be needed.

"Ken have you and/or Airgass paused the affected content precisely when the perceived flickering/pulsing is occurring? If so, what happens in regards to the flicker/pulsing?"

I'm not sure if this has already been checked but are you and/or Airgass able to see flicker with any static test patterns such as low APL pluge, high APL, average APL, greyscale ramps, chroma and luma burts, both full field and windowed grey scale and color patterns of different stimulus and color?

Ken have you and/or Airgass paused the affected content precisely when the perceived flickering/pulsing is occurring? If so, what happens in regards to the flicker/pulsing?

yes, i have and it stops immediately...also on a frozen frame like tdk in the court room. i ran this test as well going into the ivc and climbing the ladder setting from the bottom(ld off) and ending up at adv high. each step that i proceeded to climb resulted in a adjustment of the background and then it would settle into that fixed position. it only took about a second to adjust.

i have s&m and on a pluge pattern i cannot replicate...

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post #1006 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Are you sure that this was caused by the reduction of the backlight setting?

While it is not a Sharp, my Sony HX900 which is a local-dimming LCD that uses a Sharp LCD panel (and possibly backlight unit?) has an obvious flicker on cameras when the scanning backlight is activated (motionflow "clear" and "clear plus") but it disappears entirely when you disable the scanning backlight. (motionflow off, or on one of the lower settings)

To the eye the picture is completely stable, even in your periphery, regardless of the motionflow setting, though you can tell when it is on if you are in a dark room and move your hand in front of you eyes, as there is a slight strobe effect. For what it's worth, I am very sensitive to flicker—I've seen it on every plasma I've ever encountered and even on CCFL LCDs—so even though it's showing up on camera, it isn't visible. I do sometimes find that late at night in a dark room I want to disable the scanning backlight as it still seems to be more restful on the eyes.


I'm sure there is probably a setting on the elite that determines whether backlight scanning is enabled or disabled. (backlight scanning improves motion handling because of the "strobe effect" it creates)

From what I recall all of those type settings were disabled such as motion enhancement, film mode and OPC.
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post #1007 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

Ken have you and/or Airgass paused the affected content precisely when the perceived flickering/pulsing is occurring? If so, what happens in regards to the flicker/pulsing?

yes, i have and it stops immediately...also on a frozen frame like tdk in the court room. i ran this test as well going into the ivc and climbing the ladder setting from the bottom(ld off) and ending up at adv high. each step that i proceeded to climb resulted in a adjustment of the background and then it would settle into that fixed position. it only took about a second to adjust.

i have s&m and on a pluge pattern i cannot replicate...

What about any of the other still patterns on that disk such as as contrast, clipping, luma burst, chroma burst, etc.? Also, do you have the AVS HD 709 disk? If not can you download it and try the various windowed and full field gray scale and color patterns on it to check for flicker/pulsing too?

With motion removed from the equation, I would be interested to know if other variables such as APL, high frequency detail (or lack thereof), color, etc. can induce flicker/pulsing.
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post #1008 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

A person had mentioned the Elite may need a hardware update in the future. I do not agree or disagree with this statement, I am not the Tech master

I did comment back, and I had mentioned that in the past 7 years I know of only two units that had hardware updates. Hardware updates are rare, but do happen. The Panasonic plasma's of this year and the Samsung UN55B850 are the only units I am aware of that had hardware updates. Point is harware updates are rare.

They're a bunch of greasy lazy morons (Elite's Corporate bosses)> instead of behaving like some other companies do in regards to customer support and firmware updates (DVDO/OPPO)> they've decided to * BUL%^$@!T about concierge service where no one answers> then feel it necessary that there is no need for updates or such for this TV? WHY BOTHER POSTING A TECH SUPPORT LINE THEN? Is it coming together or is this all were' getting?
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post #1009 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbonacci View Post

What about any of the other still patterns on that disk such as as contrast, clipping, luma burst, chroma burst, etc.? Also, do you have the AVS HD 709 disk? If not can you download it and try the various windowed and full field gray scale and color patterns on it to check for flicker/pulsing too?

With motion removed from the equation, I would be interested to know if other variables such as APL, high frequency detail (or lack thereof), color, etc. can induce flicker/pulsing.

i will try those test patterns tonight, and report back..

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post #1010 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

Doubt that.

Spacescenes = stars... lot of stars. There's no way a LD set could get blacks as deep as a plasma in situations like that.

To bad in this case. Your wrong. Even my 8500 doesn't look ad black any more because I've been getting so used to the picture of this set.
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post #1011 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

A person had mentioned the Elite may need a hardware update in the future. I do not agree or disagree with this statement, I am not the Tech master

I did comment back, and I had mentioned that in the past 7 years I know of only two units that had hardware updates. Hardware updates are rare, but do happen. The Panasonic plasma's of this year and the Samsung UN55B850 are the only units I am aware of that had hardware updates. Point is harware updates are rare.

If I may ask...who said "may need a hardware update in the future"?
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post #1012 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by shingdaz View Post

They're a bunch of greasy lazy morons (Elite's Corporate bosses)> instead of behaving like some other companies do in regards to customer support and firmware updates (DVDO/OPPO)> they've decided to * BUL%^$@!T about concierge service where no one answers> then feel it necessary that there is no need for updates or such for this TV? WHY BOTHER POSTING A TECH SUPPORT LINE THEN? Is it coming together or is this all were' getting?

Just to be fair, there has already been one software update for the Elites.
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post #1013 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

Doubt that.

Spacescenes = stars... lot of stars. There's no way a LD set could get blacks as deep as a plasma in situations like that.

Factually incorrect, they do.
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post #1014 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 12:29 PM
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I might be the minority here, but I just went into my local home theater store and they had the Elite up on display. The only thing I was impressed by was the black level. It is a very nice display, but by no means $5,000 nice, in my opinion.
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post #1015 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 12:43 PM
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Anyone have issues with longevity?

My Magnolia got a 70" in which died after three days.

The sales guy said it was probably a power surge, not noticing the high end Panamax it's plugged into.

The 60" they had on display looked good, but not appreciably more so than the 55HX929 Sony on sale next to it.
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post #1016 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Gempulse View Post

I might be the minority here, but I just went into my local home theater store and they had the Elite up on display. The only thing I was impressed by was the black level. It is a very nice display, but by no means $5,000 nice, in my opinion.

I went yesterday to MHT and my observation was same. The display is very impressive. Extremely dark blacks. However someone has to be really well heeled to pay this amount of money for the modest improvements.

But that is the case in most high end products. A $16k speaker is not that much better than a $2K speaker. After a certain level any improvements come at a steep price.

However even if one can afford it now, he/she may not be able to justify spending so much as the display technology is evolving. And in as 1-2 years the products may be better at a lower price point.

That said one thing that bothered me was the reflectivity of the panel. They were playing Star Wars .. and many of the scenes were dark. In those scenes the lights in the store were clearly visible. Those lights were not near the display and were fairly dim. It was very distracting to see the lights in those scenes. In brightly lit scenes it was not a problem. So one probably needs a light controlled environment for this set.
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post #1017 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 01:16 PM
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So one probably needs a light controlled environment for this set.

No. You don't.
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post #1018 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

Anyone have issues with longevity?

My Magnolia got a 70" in which died after three days.

The sales guy said it was probably a power surge, not noticing the high end Panamax it's plugged into.

The 60" they had on display looked good, but not appreciably more so than the 55HX929 Sony on sale next to it.

There has only been one report of a failed set that I've seen. I do not believe this is a widespread issue. This was not on AVS.
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post #1019 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

Yes, and many people who don't have their TVs calibrated are happy with them too. I'm not sure that actually proves anything.

I still haven't seen an honest-to-god calibration report except for Kevin's preprod. If we're willing to accept there is a difference between the set he calibrated and the production version, then we have to accept the calibration could be different.

Call me suspicious, but much experience leads me to question a product targeted for a videophile market with a high end price tag and yet no in-depth professional reviews or published calibration details. Why would you produce this product and then not trumpet its superiority?
Roy

I agree, I think it's a big conspiracy :roll eyes:

Check out High Def Junkies for a pretty decent calibration report from one of their members. The set is new, only shipping for 3 or 4 weeks now. Other reviews and reports will follow, not the least of which is the VE shootout in October. However, there is good info out there now if you are willing to search for it.
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post #1020 of 14597 Old 09-25-2011, 02:05 PM
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Any reason you would have attempted the calibration with LD off? You'd never get the blacks that make these panels so engaging.

Primarily convenience. My vp can be switched between 3 sizes of pattern. The windows pattern is default. Chad B mentioned that he used LD on with full screen and windows with LD off. Doing 21 point gamma/grayscale is tedious enough without having to change patterns every time. Also, brightness and contrast set correctly with S&M and LD off do not require adjustment when LD is turned on with advanced low. Blacks appear "perfect" except for the manual grayscale adjustments at low levels mentioned previously.
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