Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post


Let's start this off the same way you did.

Seriously, do you even know what "input lag" is? You clearly fail to know the correct way to test input lag to begin with. It does in fact deal with numbers. How else do you think it's measured? Higher numbers mean worse lag. Using a game someone doesn't play is not a way to measure the lag. Using a game you generally play is a simple way to tell if you have higher lag then what your used to. Either way. It still doesn't give you an accurate measurement of the display. There are specific ways to accurately tell what's going on.

As for LCD sets generally having the worst lag. Well, that's generally true. Sharp is one of the best in dealing with the delay between the two. As I said before. The games you've mentioned are pointless in test. Your wrong. Very wrong. No where near correct. It's ALL about the numbers you get.

I've been following this thread not because I'm considering buying this set (sadly, it's way out of my price range) but to keep up with the latest and greatest regardless of tech. But I have to disagree completely with you. Video games are the best way to test input lag in my experience. Especially Guitar Hero and Rock Band on Expert, Street Fighter IV or a good FPS. And LCD's are generally worse with input lag than plasmas. It's the reason why I returned my XBR4 a few years ago and got a plasma. It's not my intent to start a LCD vs. plasma debate, I could care less what people buy. But I could understand why gamers considering this great set are somewhat concerned with input lag. Playing Metallica or DragonForce on Expert will tell you immediately how bad or good the input lag is.
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post #1352 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 06:44 PM
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And yes, gaming is a deal breaker to me. I would love to go from 50" to 60" in my HT room.....but since gaming is literally 50% of my use, I am put off at the idea of having to use a less accurate picture mode just to game.
My Pioneer 101FD handles gaming without a single complaint in calibrated ISF Day mode so at the present moment I have put the thought of upgrading on the back burner until LCD's in general can do a better job without the need for a dedicated game setting. Makes me sad because I really do like the Sharp Elite. Maybe next years model will do it for me.
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post #1353 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

And yes, gaming is a deal breaker to me. I would love to go from 50" to 60" in my HT room.....but since gaming is literally 50% of my use, I am put off at the idea of having to use a less accurate picture mode just to game.
My Pioneer 101FD handles gaming without a single complaint in calibrated ISF Day mode so at the present moment I have put the thought of upgrading on the back burner until LCD's in general can do a better job without the need for a dedicated game setting. Makes me sad because I really do like the Sharp Elite. Maybe next years model will do it for me.

Well hold on, I don't think anyone has come back and said this panel has bad input lag. I think we are still waiting on those results.

One thing we've learned here though is, panels should not be tested with real world material.
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post #1354 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

As a big gamer myself, I concur with LaoChe.

How is asking someone for a real world test on a particular issue, using real world material, wrong?

Asking a user to put in a particular game that will showcase input lag more prominently than other games is in no way different than asking someone to play a 1080p/24 scene that is notorious for judder on less capable sets and asking the user how the TV handles it.
Well, I stand corrected: in your world it is different. And apparently wrong.

It isn't accurate. One might be more or less sensitive to input lag then the next. So what works for one might not work for others. Which is why accuracy and actual numbers are so important. Some are okay with 50~60MS. Others don't like to go above 16~35MS. Which is why test come to play. Playing a game will help YOU out. Not others.

So yes. You ARE WRONG.
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post #1355 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

It isn't accurate. One might be more or less sensitive to input lag then the next. So what works for one might not work for others. Which is why accuracy and actual numbers are so important. Some are okay with 50~60MS. Others don't like to go above 16~35MS. Which is why test come to play. Playing a game will help YOU out. Not others.

So yes. You ARE WRONG.

If someone says they are a competitive SSF IV player and doesn't notice any input lag, you can best bet the lag is LOW (and I mean CRT low). And quite honestly, that's good enough for me. Same with someone playing DragonForce on expert. In order to complete that song you HAVE to have low input lag (without game calibration). It's not a matter of opinion. You just won't be able to complete it. Will it give you an exact input delay? No. Again, like I said, if you want to break out a CRT and do a side-by-side, I'm all for it. But that's not a practical request. A game that is input lag sensitive is a much more practical request.

So what would you have me ask? "Hey, can you try a certain game?" OR, "do you have a spare CRT lying around that you can connect and give the exact ms delay?" Seriously?

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post #1356 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

If someone says they are a competitive SSF IV player and doesn't notice any input lag, you can best bet the lag is LOW (and I mean CRT low). And quite honestly, that's good enough for me. Same with someone playing DragonForce on expert. In order to complete that song you HAVE to have low input lag. It's not a matter of opinion. You just won't be able to complete it. Will it give you an exact input delay? No. Again, like I said, if you want to break out a CRT and do a side-by-side, I'm all for it. But that's not a practical request. A game that is input lag sensitive is a much more practical request.

So what would you have me ask? "Hey, can you try a certain game?" OR, "do you have a spare CRT lying around that you can connect and give the exact ms delay?" Seriously?


There are TONS of sensitive games where low lag is a MUST to play. Yet you will still have others that could play it on a crappy laggy set and it not be noticeable to them. I never said I don;t understand what your saying. Its just a matter of what your saying not being credible enough to everyone.
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post #1357 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post


So yes. You ARE WRONG.

How am I wrong? No one refuted that an actual numerical test of the sets input lag isn't a concrete test.....what is being argued is that it is not the only way, that a much simpler and more real world test can be done.

You can give me a numerical value of the input lag....or you can tell me that when a controller button is pressed the corresponding action translates on screen without any noticeable delay or gaming impact. Both tell me exactly what I need to know. Of course, I'm still wrong.
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post #1358 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post


Its just a matter of what your saying not being credible enough to everyone.

That's the kicker: the question he originally asked wasn't aimed at everyone. He was asking a user of the set to do a simple, real world test and report his impressions, not on behalf of everyone but on behalf of his own curiosity. You just decided to jump in and curb stomp him for no reason whatsoever.
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post #1359 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

They can use a Wii on any HDTV, but I don't think people are buying an Elite with the idea that it will make their Wii, NES, SNES, N64 games look better.

I LOVE my Pioneer Elite because I don't have to put it in "game mode" to play games. It is set to ISF Night, and that is what I use for movies, TV AND games. And it does everything BEAUTIFULLY. One of the most important things when it comes to gaming on an HDTV is input lag. Pioneer plasmas have VERY little input lag while still producing an amazing picture. With other displays (mainly LCDs), you'll have to make a choice, reduce input lag by turning off several picture processing features (game mode) which in turn reduces PQ, or leave all the processing turned on and have ridiculous input lag. With the Pioneer, I don't have to make any compromises. I get very little input lag while still maintaining an excellent picture.


So if the new Elite can match the gaming performance of my 141FD or 111FD, I'm sold. If not, I'll stick with my Pioneer. My Pioneer plasmas have me spoiled, and I refuse to make compromises.

I second that.
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post #1360 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:35 PM
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post #1361 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

There are TONS of sensitive games where low lag is a MUST to play. Yet you will still have others that could play it on a crappy laggy set and it not be noticeable to them. I never said I don;t understand what your saying. Its just a matter of what your saying not being credible enough to everyone.

I'd like to see ONE person complete DragonForce on expert without calibrating the game. Again, input sensitive games are a good practical test. If someone wants to go through the hassle of setting up a more scientific test, I'm all for it. But I'm definitely not going to ask someone to do that.
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post #1362 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:39 PM
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So wasn't it about a year ago where most people on here were calling down Sharp for the yellow pixel,.... gimmicky...can't calibrate properly... outside of rec709... etc. So what has changed, now everyone is drooling over a set with the yellow pixel. Anyone want to say they were wrong?
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post #1363 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post

So wasn't it about a year ago where most people on here were calling down Sharp for the yellow pixel,.... gimmicky...can't calibrate properly... outside of rec709... etc. So what has changed, now everyone is drooling over a set with the yellow pixel. Anyone want to say they were wrong?

Pioneer engineers helped fix their issues.
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post #1364 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's a possibility, but I agree with sycore, there is certainly a degree of subjectivity in terms of 'what provides the best picture'. But it's actually more complicated than that since 'accuracy' comes in to play. A person may like picture A better than picture B even though B is more accurate.

I've got both the Kuro and the Elite, and as I've already stated, I prefer the Elite's picture.

They are both Elites, which Elite do you prefer, the Sharp Elite or the Pioneer Elite.
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post #1365 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

How am I wrong? No one refuted that an actual numerical test of the sets input lag isn't a concrete test.....what is being argued is that it is not the only way, that a much simpler and more real world test can be done.

I guess in this care there is more then one correct answer.
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post #1366 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cybertec View Post

They are both Elites, which Elite do you prefer, the Sharp Elite or the Pioneer Elite.

He prefers the Sharp.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #1367 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 08:27 PM
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Can somebody can tell me the Crosstalk on this elite ? And Pls test about the crosstalk in 3D game just like GT5 or Killzone 3 ! Because all of the game is suffering bad crosstalk on my Sony 60LX900 ! I am thinking to change if the crosstalk is solve on elite ! Thx
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post #1368 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cybertec View Post

They are both Elites, which Elite do you prefer, the Sharp Elite or the Pioneer Elite.

They are both Elites, but they are not both Kuros.

I prefer the Elite that is not the Kuro. But the Kuro is still a phenomenal set.
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post #1369 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post

So wasn't it about a year ago where most people on here were calling down Sharp for the yellow pixel,.... gimmicky...can't calibrate properly... outside of rec709... etc. So what has changed, now everyone is drooling over a set with the yellow pixel. Anyone want to say they were wrong?

Anyone want to say that maybe Sharp re-engineered the displays so that the yellow pixels were now able to be calibrated and ultimately conform to Rec709?
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post #1370 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Anyone want to say that maybe Sharp re-engineered the displays so that the yellow pixels were now able to be calibrated and ultimately conform to Rec709?

But according to all the whining last year it is impossible to conform to Rec 709 with a yellow pixel.
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post #1371 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 09:46 PM
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Not that I anticipate getting my hands on one of these any time soon, but how do you calibrate grey scale with the yellow sub pixel?

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #1372 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post

But according to all the whining last year it is impossible to conform to Rec 709 with a yellow pixel.

The whining is wrong.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1373 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 10:35 PM
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Not that I anticipate getting my hands on one of these any time soon, but how do you calibrate grey scale with the yellow sub pixel?

With a spectroradiometer?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1374 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 11:27 PM
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The interpolated 3D effect is impressive on the Sharp Elite. While the 2D to 3D conversion doesn't jump out of the screen like native 3D, the depth it adds to the image is still impressive.

I watched the pod race scene from The Phantom Menace on Blu-ray with the TV in 3D mode, and it was very cool!

Without another TV's algorithm to compare this to, I can't tell you if it's better than Samsung, Sony, etc.; but it's quite a fun effect. Even the wife liked it.
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post #1375 of 14661 Old 10-01-2011, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ERosenbrg View Post

The interpolated 3D effect is impressive on the Sharp Elite. While the 2D to 3D conversion doesn't jump out of the screen like native 3D, the depth it adds to the image is still impressive.

I watched the pod race scene from The Phantom Menace on Blu-ray with the TV in 3D mode, and it was very cool!

Without another TV's algorithm to compare this to, I can't tell you if it's better than Samsung, Sony, etc.; but it's quite a fun effect. Even the wife liked it.

How many depth u set ? The max is +16 , and I saw lot of Crosstalk there in a store ! Can u see it too ?
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post #1376 of 14661 Old 10-02-2011, 12:12 AM
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With a spectroradiometer?

I mean do you just ignore the Y and adjust the RGB.

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #1377 of 14661 Old 10-02-2011, 12:14 AM
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When I turn on the TV and switch to my Denon A/V receiver with no active source on the Denon receiver, I get a very faint and very brief "brighter than black" glow on the screen which then is completely extinguished to black. I do have a little dim light in my room. However, in the short time that I can see the screen dimly glowing, I also see what look like clouds all over the screen. The clouds are in the same location every time, just before the set goes black. I do not see these clouds while viewing movies, even in dark areas, or while viewing a bonafide black image through satellite, DVD or PS3. I only see them when the set is tuned to a dead source, and even then only briefly.

The clouds have the same appearance, although far dimmer and less visible, as the ones you see in the built-in local dimming demo program. Except they are all over the screen. Has anyone else noticed this?

I've noticed this faint glow/clouding on my 70" as well. Similar to you, I see it with a Denon AVR. I also see it when the Oppo blu ray player switches between loading scenes. During the soft glow, I see two distinct clouds - in the upper and lower right corners.

I've attempted to take pictures of it, however the camera doesn't pick it up and the picture looks all black. I don't notice the clouding during actual content. I was slightly dissapointed to see this being an 8k tv, however since it's not noticed during normal playback, I'm not sure how much of an issue it is for me. Anyone else seeing this?
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post #1378 of 14661 Old 10-02-2011, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post

I mean do you just ignore the Y and adjust the RGB.

There is no adjustment for the yellow. Yellow is normally made by red + green. In the Sharp, it's also made by shining the backlight through the yellow-filtered pixels. The settings of the R and G determine whether or not light is shined through the yellow sub-pixels (the blue might as well, in some strange way, but I'm not suer how or why that would happen; I just don't want to rule it out).

When you set the R, G and B in the panel, the TV is doing a lot of internal magic to determine how much to twist the LC material in the corresponding sub-pixels which will determine how much light gets through. It doesn't actually manipulate the pixels material. So if you make a change to R and G in a Quattron panel. the Sharp might allow more or less light to make it out through the yellow sub-pixels, but it's no trickier than that.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1379 of 14661 Old 10-02-2011, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post

So wasn't it about a year ago where most people on here were calling down Sharp for the yellow pixel,.... gimmicky...can't calibrate properly... outside of rec709... etc. So what has changed, now everyone is drooling over a set with the yellow pixel. Anyone want to say they were wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Anyone want to say that maybe Sharp re-engineered the displays so that the yellow pixels were now able to be calibrated and ultimately conform to Rec709?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post

But according to all the whining last year it is impossible to conform to Rec 709 with a yellow pixel.

Sharp didn't get the controls "right" until 2011. Some calibrators won't touch the 2010 and older displays. As of 2011, however, the earlier problems have been alleviated and the Sharps calibrate as they should.

The yellow pixels are an unnecessary gimmick. With a D65 white point and proper Rec. 709 primaries, CIE chart position for yellow, x = 0.4193 y = 0.5053, should be automatic with no help from a secondary colored pixel.

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post #1380 of 14661 Old 10-02-2011, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akio74 View Post

I've noticed this faint glow/clouding on my 70" as well. Similar to you, I see it with a Denon AVR. I also see it when the Oppo blu ray player switches between loading scenes. During the soft glow, I see two distinct clouds - in the upper and lower right corners.

I've attempted to take pictures of it, however the camera doesn't pick it up and the picture looks all black. I don't notice the clouding during actual content. I was slightly dissapointed to see this being an 8k tv, however since it's not noticed during normal playback, I'm not sure how much of an issue it is for me. Anyone else seeing this?

I have a similar experience except than mine are on the left corners. Poses no problem with actual viewing and doesn't appear on test patterns.
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