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post #1 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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In "normal" real world cases, how noticable are the differences in PQ? Some say that the difference is great. Then some say only those who are "very anal" notice much difference at all. Meanwhile others will say to look in the store and judge for onself. then yet others will say you can't choose a tv based on how it looks in the store. Some people say don't listen to reviews. ok, you have to either judge by revirws or how it is in the store! That's your only options other than buying all tvs to test.

Just guessing based on assumptions my guess is that noise will be the same... or actually possibly even more noise on a full array if indeed brightness is more. I don't personally see how full array can affect much other than getting rid of flashlighting and other such lighting nuisances.
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post #2 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 02:43 PM
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post #3 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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eh, but that's not PQ. how it translates in the PQ is what matters. I certainly see how full array would cut down on some lighting issues, although even then I'm not sure to what extent. Seems like bleedthrough, for example, would be even more on full array since there's more light to start with?
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post #4 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

eh, but that's not PQ. how it translates in the PQ is what matters. I certainly see how full array would cut down on some lighting issues, although even then I'm not sure to what extent. Seems like bleedthrough, for example, would be even more on full array since there's more light to start with?

Black levels... you watch movies or game in a dim light? A Full Array gives you insane black levels if implemented correctly.

An Edge lit LCD sometimes is worse than CCFL backlit displays from 3 years ago.

If you want a bitchin' hometheater display... make sure you have the best contrast... static and 'dynamic' you can.

Edit: Thought you meant local dimming full array...

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post #5 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

eh, but that's not PQ. how it translates in the PQ is what matters. I certainly see how full array would cut down on some lighting issues, although even then I'm not sure to what extent. Seems like bleedthrough, for example, would be even more on full array since there's more light to start with?

Why is there more light to start with? The Sharp 70" line is all full array. All meet the >new< Energy Star guidelines of 108 watts maximum use. They are not using especially efficient LEDs vs. other manufacturers. If anything, they probably are using less total light, since they don't have to use incredibly inefficient light guides across giant pieces of glass to illuminate them.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well my main choices are the sony hx820 and hx929 and I just figured they would use the same bulb types, thus if there are more of them there is mroe total light. One of the main thigns people said on here that's better about the 929 included "brighter" so it just sounds like it would then have more light capable of bleeding through.

Energy standards are so ridiculous. Like the stupid deal where they're getting rid of "traditional" lightbulbs for home. Let's all just have far inferior light to save energy. I've tried leds in the home and they're so pathetic and dim everything dowwn even when their boxes list their light output as mroe than the others!

yes I do mean local dimming full array as this is about the two sonys. Both have local dimming, but of course edge lit is different and has less zones etc etc. But the 820 is known for having awesome blacks also. Supposedly.

As far as now vs. 3 years ago, I made that one thread about that same topic and people kept saying that most tvs of today would outperform those of a few years ago. Otherwise I am about to be wasting a ton of money if it's not the case.

If I decide 46 is big enough I would LIKELY get the 929 if I'm sure I can spend the money. Otherwise I'm stuck with the 820 or if I decide on 55 inches then maybe the 820 also as the 929 is $2300 at best.
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post #7 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

eh, but that's not PQ. how it translates in the PQ is what matters. I certainly see how full array would cut down on some lighting issues, although even then I'm not sure to what extent. Seems like bleedthrough, for example, would be even more on full array since there's more light to start with?

There are a number of factors that contribute to an awesome picture quality; one being of contrast ratio. The ability for one display to display dark blacks contribute to more pronounced colors... thats why we measure contrast on a ratio on bright and dark.

The one with edge-lit would display blacks that appear grey because they are unable to fully dim the LED to a down 0 - they are always on never off because the dimming zone is extremely big. If they do turn off completely, you would see a huge black block on the screen - and video sources usually never have just "one" face on screen. It also contributes to HALO which is light surrounding the picture object. It becomes very apparent as one section on the screen may appear much brighter than on another section.

Whereas a backlit local dimming set can actually shut off and dim individual zones since these 'zones' are much much smaller.

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post #8 of 39 Old 09-30-2011, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks. Obviously does make sense, but again it comes back to blacks. Supposedly the hx820 has excellent blacks. Based on the nature of edge lit I will assume it "can't" be as good of blacks as the 929 though. Maybe capable of having as good of a black in of itself, but larger zones limiting use of it.

Sony in particular is known for hiding their zone count and using way less than other manufacturers even in full array with local dimming though.

Also I would think even with a ton of zones it would be hard to have it turn any fof because there may be somethign else in the same zone due to how small details in pictures can be.

Since the lg, lesser sony, etc... do call their feature local dimming, I assume it does turn off zones of some sort though.
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post #9 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Still kind of hard to believe full array is as superior as the price tag would indicate. The number of open box 929s keeps skyrocketing. Now I see SEVEN of them at one store. So that makes it seem like the differences aren't enough, in those people's opinions. I personally hope it is because Im leaning that direction.
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post #10 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

Still kind of hard to believe full array is as superior as the price tag would indicate. The number of open box 929s keeps skyrocketing. Now I see SEVEN of them at one store. So that makes it seem like the differences aren't enough, in those people's opinions. I personally hope it is because Im leaning that direction.

To really appreciate it you need to be in a relaxed environment with some good source material. It is also important to have the set somewhat calibrated.

Nobody can convince you of something you do not want to believe, the difference is huge and worth every dollar.
The chain stores put material on that is difficult to appreciate a good set from a bad one.

If you do not want to spend the cash I suggest a Plasma, great blacks and lower prices.

The best full-array sets today are matching the Pioneer Elite of 3 years ago.

Watch golf or baseball on a Samsung D8000 with the settings on movie and you will see the grass in the edges of the screen washed out or brighter than the center.
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post #11 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

Well my main choices are the sony hx820 and hx929 and I just figured they would use the same bulb types, thus if there are more of them there is mroe total light.

I'm going to refrain from being mean here, so I'll simply say there is no basis whatsoever for that assumption.

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One of the main thigns people said on here that's better about the 929 included "brighter" so it just sounds like it would then have more light capable of bleeding through.

First of all, no. Second of all, no. Third of all, locally dimmed sets are inherently better at avoiding bleed through (like the HX929). Fourth of all, edge-lit sets are notoriously bad at bleed through.
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Energy standards are so ridiculous. Like the stupid deal where they're getting rid of "traditional" lightbulbs for home. Let's all just have far inferior light to save energy. I've tried leds in the home and they're so pathetic and dim everything dowwn even when their boxes list their light output as mroe than the others!

We basically disagree on every point you just made.

First of all, they are not getting rid of "traditional" lightbulbs. They are getting rid of 100w incandescents. There will actually be 100w incadnescent equivalents using halogen very soon. Second of all, the amount of money people will save from using CFs and LEDs is ridiculously high while I'm not happy it takes "nanny state" approaches to achieve this, I am happy that it actually amounts to a "middle class and poor tax cut". The payback on CFs in particular is <1 year in most parts of the country in high-use areas. (The bulbs are $1 each at my drug store right now.)

Third of all, the color rendition index of good LED bulbs and the color temp can easily match incandescents, which actually put out a very weird color temp -- that I admit we are all used to, but it's weird. LED bulbs are too expensive, but that's about to start changing. As will light output. Look, in particular, for Switch Lighting stuff late this year. And Philips makes some nice stuff.
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yes I do mean local dimming full array as this is about the two sonys. Both have local dimming, but of course edge lit is different and has less zones etc etc. But the 820 is known for having awesome blacks also. Supposedly.

You can't have true local dimming with edge lighting. You can have "zone dimming" that is very crude. It doesn't impress me or most people.
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As far as now vs. 3 years ago, I made that one thread about that same topic and people kept saying that most tvs of today would outperform those of a few years ago. Otherwise I am about to be wasting a ton of money if it's not the case.

To be honest, I wouldn't spend one thin dime based on what a bunch of internet knuckleheads wrote in pixels. Use your eyes and decide for yourself. Ignore us and don't "waste" any money if you don't like what you see.
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If I decide 46 is big enough I would LIKELY get the 929 if I'm sure I can spend the money. Otherwise I'm stuck with the 820 or if I decide on 55 inches then maybe the 820 also as the 929 is $2300 at best.

You have all these biases about full array. It's so unbelievably superior for enjoying high-contrast material that for videophiles, it's ridiculous to not consider it. But you've already decided you need to have a pole in your rectum to even care. So why are you considering it at all? It doesn't really make sense to me.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #12 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

Still kind of hard to believe full array is as superior as the price tag would indicate. The number of open box 929s keeps skyrocketing. Now I see SEVEN of them at one store. So that makes it seem like the differences aren't enough, in those people's opinions. I personally hope it is because Im leaning that direction.

Reason why there's even edge lit is because 1) legal 2) TV quality LEDs 3 years ago were very expensive.

Otherwise all LED backlit would have been full array today. And I expect that to happen next 3 years.
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post #13 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

In "normal" real world cases, how noticable are the differences in PQ? Some say that the difference is great. Then some say only those who are "very anal" notice much difference at all. Meanwhile others will say to look in the store and judge for onself. then yet others will say you can't choose a tv based on how it looks in the store. Some people say don't listen to reviews. etc.

How can you trust what the eyes of others see?

http://www.reallywarped.com/CoolArt.htm
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post #14 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 08:33 AM
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If you are lucky enough to get an edge lit display...820, without the uniformity issues associated with edge lit displays (I hear there are few out there) you will probably be very happy, it just depends on how discerning you are. If the issues were minor I could be content/happy with an edge lit display. But to continue the debate of edge lit vs LD?...one technology is better than the other, it's really just that simple.
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post #15 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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well the exact 820 set I received is going back regardless because 1. they sent me one built in march this late in the year! and 2. even with horrible vision if I truly try I can see the crease on the left. I haven't noticed any other problems though such as flashlighting or clouding.

I'm very close to writing off the lg although personally I think the majority of people who would use that and the 820 would choose the lg as the sony PQ difference is very very minimal.

So absically now it comes down to edge lit vs. full array and 46 inches vs. 55 with the only choices left the 820 and 929. And I really don't feel like I can pay what the 929 costs until this guy whow as going to have me do a project for him actually pays me some where I know it won't fall through. He was supposed to have me start on it lastw eek and now has magically disappeared for an entire week, thus casting doubt on me ever seeing those thousands of dollars.
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post #16 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

well the exact 820 set I received is going back regardless because 1. they sent me one built in march this late in the year! and 2. even with horrible vision if I truly try I can see the crease on the left. I haven't noticed any other problems though such as flashlighting or clouding.

I'm very close to writing off the lg although personally I think the majority of people who would use that and the 820 would choose the lg as the sony PQ difference is very very minimal.

So absically now it comes down to edge lit vs. full array and 46 inches vs. 55 with the only choices left the 820 and 929. And I really don't feel like I can pay what the 929 costs until this guy whow as going to have me do a project for him actually pays me some where I know it won't fall through. He was supposed to have me start on it lastw eek and now has magically disappeared for an entire week, thus casting doubt on me ever seeing those thousands of dollars.

I don't know why you just don't purchase a plasma. The truth is full-array local dimming sets are trying to equal a Plasma in performance for a lot more money.
If I did not get the deal from HSN I did I would get an LG LHX or a plasma. Why purchase something you know is not as good for the same money?
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post #17 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know why you just don't purchase a plasma. The truth is full-array local dimming sets are trying to equal a Plasma in performance for a lot more money.
If I did not get the deal from HSN I did I would get an LG LHX or a plasma. Why purchase something you know is not as good for the same money?

Blacks is not the only thing that matters in a tv. I don't agree at all that a plasma is better and costs less. First off the ebst plasmas cost almost as much as the leds I am considering with current prices. Secondly, plasmas can't even remotely come close to as good at brightness. And third even the best plasmas have worse glare than some of the worst leds.

I am going to use a tv for ordinary tv shows 90% of the time, so why get a type of tv that only excels in dark evnvironments which will be beneficial to me 10% of teh time?

Also, the best models of plasmas are not even available in under 50 inches. You're forced to either get something over 50 inches or get something that is not rated any better than leds.

I'm somewhat of a sony fanboy also and they don't make plasmas.
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post #18 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 11:00 AM
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Blacks is not the only thing that matters in a tv. I don't agree at all that a plasma is better and costs less. First off the ebst plasmas cost almost as much as the leds I am considering with current prices. Secondly, plasmas can't even remotely come close to as good at brightness. And third even the best plasmas have worse glare than some of the worst leds.

I am going to use a tv for ordinary tv shows 90% of the time, so why get a type of tv that only excels in dark evnvironments which will be beneficial to me 10% of teh time?

Also, the best models of plasmas are not even available in under 50 inches. You're forced to either get something over 50 inches or get something that is not rated any better than leds.

I'm somewhat of a sony fanboy also and they don't make plasmas.

If your a Sony Fanboy get a 909 or 929 or spend the next several years wishing you did. A place by me has a 52" 909 for $1,600, the 909 is a great TV.
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Is this dude serious? All I have ever owned are XBR series Sony. My XBR6 started showing a purple pixel line. I did what you're supposed to do. Go view the 820 and 929 side by side at a store. I saw very subtle differences between the 2. I was a little uneasy not buying an XBR, but I knew if I didnt like it I could return it. Also with the fact that Sony wouldn't give me a the 929 for exchange I asked if they would do the 820. At first they said no, then I called back, it was no big deal. I paid $1600 from Sony for the 55HX820 build date April 2011. I have zero clouding, no flashlights, and no creases. Blacks are perfect, don't exhibit any bleeding. And I do know what to look for as my friends 929 exhibits all. I am very picky OCD and very detail oriented, but I wouldn't be like this Midnight guy when buying a TV. He seems like the guy that if the stand makes the tv sit .0025 degrees off he would return it.
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post #21 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 11:15 AM
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HX 929 sucks less than ANY edge lit junk out there.
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post #22 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

Blacks is not the only thing that matters in a tv. I don't agree at all that a plasma is better and costs less. First off the ebst plasmas cost almost as much as the leds I am considering with current prices. Secondly, plasmas can't even remotely come close to as good at brightness. And third even the best plasmas have worse glare than some of the worst leds.

You have a lot of opinions that objective analysis doesn't bear out. Given that, I again ask why you are even bothering asking us for advice.
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I am going to use a tv for ordinary tv shows 90% of the time, so why get a type of tv that only excels in dark evnvironments which will be beneficial to me 10% of teh time?

For example, your opinions about glare are nonsense.
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Also, the best models of plasmas are not even available in under 50 inches. You're forced to either get something over 50 inches or get something that is not rated any better than leds.

So you want to buy a 55" LCD but you can't afford it, but a 50" plasma or a 55" plasma is out of the question then? Like for example a Panasonic GT series (50 or 55"), which is a really good plasma, or the admitted pricier 55" VT30. Or a Samsung 51" D7000 or D8000. There are serious bargain on that list.
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I'm somewhat of a sony fanboy also and they don't make plasmas.

You're a Sony fanboy? Then start drinking their Kool-Aid on local dimming! Local dimming is good.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #23 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 02:24 PM
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@midnight... you are all over the map and your reasons for one or other continue to contradict each other. Instead of soliciting technical advice on LD vs edge-lit vs plasma vs 46" vs 55" why not just ask yourself, "what can I buy that will give me the least amount of buyers remorse". AVS can't do that for you.
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post #24 of 39 Old 10-01-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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@midnight... you are all over the map and your reasons for one or other continue to contradict each other. Instead of soliciting technical advice on LD vs edge-lit vs plasma vs 46" vs 55" why not just ask yourself, "what can I buy that will give me the least amount of buyers remorse". AVS can't do that for you.

Questions about differences due to lighting technology are necessary in order to know which is likely to give less buyer's remorse. At this point it's extremely difficult to tell. I am pretty happy with the edge lit picture, but given how many people claim it's "junk" or "crap" it makes me reluctant since I could simply notice it only after owning it too long to return it. Then for the 929 we have one person in here saying there was very little difference noticable n a side by side comparison and then other people saying it's so much better and then yet another person saying you have to be viewing top notch source material to see the difference.

Then to add the size into the complication, the 55 is so nice for general viewing with light in the room, normal tv shows, etc... However, for movies with no light on in the room it seems too big and the aspect ratio seems "off" especially when people's faces fill the whole screen. I assume due to how small this room is it needs more distance to make the aspect ratio look proper as there's a tad of scanning vertically necessary when too close so it doesn't seem "right".

So none of these decisions can be perfect. one tv means much more expense. The other means worse lighting technology. One size is good for some things. one is good for others. And tot ake it a step further, I think passive 3D is better than active. So to get the Sonys I am also sacrificing the 3D I prefer as well as audio sync. Meanwhile gaining a lower lag gaming environment.
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post #25 of 39 Old 10-04-2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by topr View Post

@midnight... you are all over the map and your reasons for one or other continue to contradict each other. Instead of soliciting technical advice on LD vs edge-lit vs plasma vs 46" vs 55" why not just ask yourself, "what can I buy that will give me the least amount of buyers remorse". AVS can't do that for you.

OP has over 440 posts and started a almost dozen new threads in less than a month. Draw your conclusions.
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post #26 of 39 Old 10-04-2011, 07:34 PM
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OP has over 440 posts and started a almost dozen new threads in less than a month. Draw your conclusions.

He, he...Waldorf, you nailed the troll to the wall!!!
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post #27 of 39 Old 10-04-2011, 11:25 PM
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You have a lot of opinions that objective analysis doesn't bear out. Given that, I again ask why you are even bothering asking us for advice.

For example, your opinions about glare are nonsense.

So you want to buy a 55" LCD but you can't afford it, but a 50" plasma or a 55" plasma is out of the question then? Like for example a Panasonic GT series (50 or 55"), which is a really good plasma, or the admitted pricier 55" VT30. Or a Samsung 51" D7000 or D8000. There are serious bargain on that list.


You're a Sony fanboy? Then start drinking their Kool-Aid on local dimming! Local dimming is good.

Hey Rogo,

Sorry to hijack this thread, but in your opinion, what's the best value full array LED 46" TV out there right now? I don't need the bells and whistles like Skype or web browser, when I'm going to attach a HTPC to it.

Thanks!
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post #28 of 39 Old 10-05-2011, 08:31 AM
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I can across a worse case scene that would challenge even the best local-dimming full-array LED TVs.

Midway through the Gettysburg movie is a 5 minute scene where a number of Confederate commanders are talking around a camp fire; there are also a number of other camp fires in the background. The scene is very dark and the solders, trees, tents, and horses are barely visible in the night as the only source of light are the fires. As the camera zooms in and out, and pans side to side, to maintain focus on the commander's conversation, the size and intensity of the camp fires in the background change.

My edge-lit TV really struggles displaying the fires throughout the five minute scene. I would be curious how a full-array local-dimming TV would handle the scene. Given the contrast delta between the fires and the pitch-black surrounding areas and the constantly changing size of the fires, I would think that unless the LEDs are-one-for-one for each LCD there would be some type of distortion.
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post #29 of 39 Old 10-05-2011, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by midnight77 View Post

Still kind of hard to believe full array is as superior as the price tag would indicate. The number of open box 929s keeps skyrocketing. Now I see SEVEN of them at one store. So that makes it seem like the differences aren't enough, in those people's opinions. I personally hope it is because Im leaning that direction.

Most of these might just be buyer remorse for spending so much for a TV. It's pretty common if you are to believe some friends I have working at best buy.

it's pretty common for a guy to buy a tv and get your spoose to talk you out of it and return it for a cheaper model.
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post #30 of 39 Old 10-05-2011, 12:52 PM
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Most of these might just be buyer remorse for spending so much for a TV. It's pretty common if you are to believe some friends I have working at best buy.

it's pretty common for a guy to buy a tv and get your spoose to talk you out of it and return it for a cheaper model.

I wouldn't believe much of anything someone working at Best Buy says. When I worked at Ultimate Electronics (R.I.P.) one of the biggest reasons for TV returns was either (a) too big or (b) too small. Maybe the buyer's spoose (spouse) was behind but real guys don't eat quiche or admit to being whipped!
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