Sharp to bring 90" LCD to most markets in 2012 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 54 Old 12-20-2011, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Bought the 70" 735 earlier this year and love it, already looking forward to bigger versions:

According to Japanese media report on a recent interview with Sharp's president, Mikio Katayama, the company is planning to push their 90-inch LCD TVs in USA next year 2012. The model will be Sharp's largest LCD TV product to date.

Sharp is already selling their 80-inch products in USA, and is currently the market leader in the country on large-size LCD TVs. Katayama said that the company is planning to introduce their 80-inch LCD TVs in China and Japan, in the first half of 2012; Sharp is already retailing their 70-inch in both countries. The Sharp president also expressed that the company intends to use the AQUOS branding for large-size LCD TVs.


http://vr-zone.com/articles/sharp-pl...#ixzz1h75sD4GC
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post #2 of 54 Old 12-20-2011, 03:21 PM
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I read somewhere else the he was quoted as saying they "might" bring the 90" to market. Still though it's interesting that they have the ability to do it,weather they can make money off it that's another problem. I haven't seen any MSRP on it perhaps CES will have one on display?
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post #3 of 54 Old 12-21-2011, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fuddvd View Post

I read somewhere else the he was quoted as saying they "might" bring the 90" to market. Still though it's interesting that they have the ability to do it,weather they can make money off it that's another problem. I haven't seen any MSRP on it perhaps CES will have one on display?

They've been so good on the cost/size value proposition on the 70" models that it makes me hopeful they'll be able to bring it in at a reasonable cost.

I'd like to see the 90" come in at a street price of around $6k, and it will need to be a 735-or-higher spec model to earn my money (3D, etc).
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post #4 of 54 Old 12-21-2011, 03:59 PM
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Great!
It'll save me some embarrassment when I show off my 733; I can point out I didn't buy the biggest thing around and there are actually *two* bigger sizes.
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post #5 of 54 Old 12-22-2011, 09:43 AM
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I remember the mid-late rear-projection era, when there was also a bit of a size race. 70 inch was about as large as it got at least for volume sales. There were bigger sets but sold only in tiny numbers.

This may not be a completely fair comparison because these sets were deep, and therefore took up a lot of real estate. But I suspect we'll see something similar here. As others point out, at some point these monsters just become too big for most living rooms, and for home theatres front-projection has lots of advantages and reasonable price.
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post #6 of 54 Old 12-22-2011, 09:45 AM
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Cost an arm and a leg
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post #7 of 54 Old 12-22-2011, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako88888 View Post

They've been so good on the cost/size value proposition on the 70" models that it makes me hopeful they'll be able to bring it in at a reasonable cost.

I'd like to see the 90" come in at a street price of around $6k, and it will need to be a 735-or-higher spec model to earn my money (3D, etc).

+1. I'm already saving for a larger screen (Samsung 64D8000). I too want 3D and a set with very good PQ at a reasonable price tag. This news it right up my alley. Seems like they are saying that there will not be another 80" set released here next year? I know some were waiting for an 80" set with 3D in 2012 but the xtra 10 inches is worth the wait. It would be even nicer if it did 4K for passive 3D.
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post #8 of 54 Old 12-22-2011, 09:55 PM
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So is plasma more expansive to mass produce than lcd at 70 inches plus??? I know panasonic will be coming out probably with a 75 inch vt 50 next year but I don't see them going to 85 inch 3d replacing the professional 85 inch model but that would be nuts.

The only thing stopping me from buying any lcd is the viewing angle and the 80 inch had no 3d and i'm assuming the 90 inch will not either?

There also coming out with a quad hd set next year to?? There really wanting to push the limits which is awesome.To bad they were not making plasmas instead of lcd
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post #9 of 54 Old 12-22-2011, 11:37 PM
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Some economic information for you. If Sharp makes a 90", they will use the same trick they used to make the 80": Repurposing a line making smaller sets into making larger ones.

To make the 80", they took a line making 40" sets and instead of cutting a piece of glass into 4 x 40", they make a single 80". This uses the same exact amount of glass, 1/4 the electronics, has an inferior yield*, and has a higher logistics cost.

* The panel is a failure if any of the 4 sections is no good. If they had made 40s, they would've made 3 good panels if any one area fails. Consider a 99% yield before. That would now be magnified such that the yield on 80" screens would be 96% (there is a bit more to it than that and there are both second-order effects and accurate probability calculations I'm leaving out).

Anyway, the point is, very approximately if the 80" sells at wholesale for anything approximating 4x the 40", Sharp is almost certainly ahead. Realistically, they need a slightly higher multiple than that and they are getting one.

Translate this to the 90" and you repurpose a 46" line (46" "class" TVs are 45" and a fraction, multiply that by 2 and you'll get very approximately 90" with a slightly different amount of waste glass). To make the 90" profitable, you'd need a price that is at minimum about 4x the wholesale of your 46" and ideally a bit higher. Again, this seems (a) doable and (b) doable at a price that some of you will find reasonable.

As for plasma, there is not much stopping Panasonic from making a 75" plasma (it's a "natural" cut from their largest fab), but the display will carry no Energy Star certification -- even a bogus one -- and it has not been confirmed such a beast is coming to market. If it does, indeed, come to market, I'd expect the price to be competitive with the Sharp 70", perhaps with a slight premium for the additional size.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #10 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

...To make the 80", they took a line making 40" sets and instead of cutting a piece of glass into 4 x 40", they make a single 80". This uses the same exact amount of glass, 1/4 the electronics, has an inferior yield*, and has a higher logistics cost....

This illustrates one reason why front-projection has technical advantages in large sizes, since the yield issue is confined to tiny chips inside the projector, not spread out over the screen.

Very large commercial displays, for example at stadiums, often consist of multiple panels bolted together with individual datafeeds. That gets around the yield issue, since a faulty panel can be replaced without touching the remaining ones. I wonder if such a model might be tried in some future high-end home TVs. If so, bring your checkbook.
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post #11 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Some economic information for you. If Sharp makes a 90", they will use the same trick they used to make the 80": Repurposing a line making smaller sets into making larger ones.

To make the 80", they took a line making 40" sets and instead of cutting a piece of glass into 4 x 40", they make a single 80". This uses the same exact amount of glass, 1/4 the electronics, has an inferior yield*, and has a higher logistics cost.

* The panel is a failure if any of the 4 sections is no good. If they had made 40s, they would've made 3 good panels if any one area fails. Consider a 99% yield before. That would now be magnified such that the yield on 80" screens would be 96% (there is a bit more to it than that and there are both second-order effects and accurate probability calculations I'm leaving out).

Anyway, the point is, very approximately if the 80" sells at wholesale for anything approximating 4x the 40", Sharp is almost certainly ahead. Realistically, they need a slightly higher multiple than that and they are getting one.

Translate this to the 90" and you repurpose a 46" line (46" "class" TVs are 45" and a fraction, multiply that by 2 and you'll get very approximately 90" with a slightly different amount of waste glass). To make the 90" profitable, you'd need a price that is at minimum about 4x the wholesale of your 46" and ideally a bit higher. Again, this seems (a) doable and (b) doable at a price that some of you will find reasonable.

As for plasma, there is not much stopping Panasonic from making a 75" plasma (it's a "natural" cut from their largest fab), but the display will carry no Energy Star certification -- even a bogus one -- and it has not been confirmed such a beast is coming to market. If it does, indeed, come to market, I'd expect the price to be competitive with the Sharp 70", perhaps with a slight premium for the additional size.

Well i certainly hope Panasonic brings out an 85 inch model next year to complete with the 90 inch lcd since top of the line plasma will kill the lcd but i bet it's only gonna be 75 inches. I'm sure the top of the line 3d projectors next year will be better quality picture at like 150 inches than the sharp 90 inch lcd.

I can see in 2013 sharp saying by end of year there gonna do a 100 inch tv and than Panasonic saying they will be making 85 inch plasma consumer models.They probably don't care that they will be 15 inches behind and even when they make the 85 inch consumer models there gonna get rid of the small market to buy there 20 k 85 inch non 3d professional plasma market...... Still i want the 85 inch model at 5 k or less now damnit
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post #12 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by davegow View Post

This illustrates one reason why front-projection has technical advantages in large sizes, since the yield issue is confined to tiny chips inside the projector, not spread out over the screen.

Front projection has a lot of advantages. It's disadvantages remain completely fundamental to the technology and experiments in "daylight viewable" screens haven't done much (anything?) to cahnge the equation.

Fact is, front projection into the home is not expanding as a fraction of the market. And things like 90" Sharp LCDs are going to eventually lead to its presence shrinking. There was a push a few years with the "daylight viewable" screens to change things, but what happened was the screens cost thousands instead of $200-300 like a regular screen and therefore projectors still cost a lot to implement.

(There are other reasons people don't want projectors. They need to be installed in ceilings or have cables draped around. You'd be surprised to learn that many people cannot realistically have a projector in their family room even if they wanted one as no install is viable.)

Anyway, you are certainly spot on about yield. In the long run, however, yield rises high enough for whatever size of flat panel being made to be reasonably viable. The Sharp 80" on an older 40" line shows that kind of progression.
Quote:


Very large commercial displays, for example at stadiums, often consist of multiple panels bolted together with individual datafeeds. That gets around the yield issue, since a faulty panel can be replaced without touching the remaining ones. I wonder if such a model might be tried in some future high-end home TVs. If so, bring your checkbook.

The problem with this is the inter-panel spacing has to be less than one-pixel. No current panel design makes this realistic. Anything greater, and the screen will have a large grid where the panels are joined. I have envisioned a system by which OLED panels could work this way, but the alignment would still be challenging and the manufacturing of the "tiles" would be difficult as well. At the end of the day, it's possible that even an 8G fab can turn out 2 100" OLED panels at a time.

Should the OLED revolution take off, eventually you'll see larger sizes, especially if manufacturing techniques get radically altered. That said, the logistics of moving rigid displays are what they are, which is why ideas like "tiled" displays and roll up OLEDs are popular here. "How can I go even bigger someday?" Legitimate questions, but also why the projector market still exists.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #13 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by smackjack22 View Post

Well i certainly hope Panasonic brings out an 85 inch model next year to complete with the 90 inch lcd since top of the line plasma will kill the lcd but i bet it's only gonna be 75 inches. I'm sure the top of the line 3d projectors next year will be better quality picture at like 150 inches than the sharp 90 inch lcd.

I can see in 2013 sharp saying by end of year there gonna do a 100 inch tv and than Panasonic saying they will be making 85 inch plasma consumer models.They probably don't care that they will be 15 inches behind and even when they make the 85 inch consumer models there gonna get rid of the small market to buy there 20 k 85 inch non 3d professional plasma market...... Still i want the 85 inch model at 5 k or less now damnit

Your pipe dreams are way above reality: Panasonic announced huge cuts and scaling back on plasma. They will introduce bigger size LCDS instead. So it is otherwise: big lcd killed big plasma.

Regarding 3D projectors @150 inches: these is not an item for normal home


Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

(There are other reasons people don't want projectors. They need to be installed in ceilings or have cables draped around. You'd be surprised to learn that many people cannot realistically have a projector in their family room even if they wanted one as no install is viable.)

Anyway, you are certainly spot on about yield. In the long run, however, yield rises high enough for whatever size of flat panel being made to be reasonably viable. The Sharp 80" on an older 40" line shows that kind of progression.


The problem with this is the inter-panel spacing has to be less than one-pixel. No current panel design makes this realistic. Anything greater, and the screen will have a large grid where the panels are joined. I have envisioned a system by which OLED panels could work this way, but the alignment would still be challenging and the manufacturing of the "tiles" would be difficult as well. At the end of the day, it's possible that even an 8G fab can turn out 2 100" OLED panels at a time.

Should the OLED revolution take off, eventually you'll see larger sizes, especially if manufacturing techniques get radically altered. That said, the logistics of moving rigid displays are what they are, which is why ideas like "tiled" displays and roll up OLEDs are popular here. "How can I go even bigger someday?" Legitimate questions, but also why the projector market still exists.

If Sharp introduces 90 incher next year home projector market will be on a death spiral. Regarding big size OLEDs let's see if there will be any kind of market for OLED TVs.
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post #14 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 01:25 PM
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Very interesting thread and especially informative posts by all, especially Rogo.

Living almost in the shadow of the Cowboys Stadium, I can appreciate the great job Mitsubishi has accomplished with the gigantic 1080p extra bright main screens. Incredibly detailed video! Whenever they open the west side huge stadium door, you can actually see what's showing on that gigantic screen with great detail, way across the parking lot and across Collins Street!!!

Addendum - For those of you technically inclined, this info is about the Cowboys gigantic TV screens:

A highlight of Cowboys Stadium is its gigantic center-hung high-definition television screen, at the time largest in the world, sometimes referred to as "Jerry-Tron". The 160-by-72-foot (49 by 22 m), 175-foot (53 m) diagonal, 11,520-square-foot (1,070 m2), scoreboard surpasses the 8,736 sq ft (812 m2) screen that opened in 2009 at the renovated Kauffman Stadium in Kansas City, Missouri as the world's largest.

The screens were developed by Mitsubishi's Diamond Vision Systems. Each center-hung sideline display consists of 10,584,064 LEDs, consuming some 635,000 watts. Because each pixel consists of four LEDs (2 red, 1 green, 1 blue), the 2,176 X 4,864 LED distribution corresponds to a 1,088 X 2,432 pixel resolution. However the image can actually be considerably sharper than the resolution suggests, because Diamond Vision's "Dynamic Pixel" technology allows the corner LEDs of four neighboring pixel clusters to function as a pixel cluster together, providing virtual pixels between each physical pixel.
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post #15 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 06:58 PM
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I'd get one for my home, Hugh, but I think PG&E might gag when I say "and I need to be able to pull down 635,000 watts".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #16 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 07:27 PM
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Wow, a 90" set is just begging for 4K resolution using their ICC upconverting engine. Hope we hear some news at CES next month. To think just 6 month ago we were speculating on $9000 75" Samsung and LG sets that never materialized and now Sharp is destroying the competition with sub $2000 70" sets. Sharp has a real chance at knocking out Mitsubishi, Toshiba and JVC from the display market all together and putting a serious hurt on Sony. Question is do they rest on their laurels or strike for the jugular with their 2012 line.
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post #17 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'd get one for my home, Hugh, but I think PG&E might gag when I say "and I need to be able to pull down 635,000 watts".

I thought about it, Rogo. That and the size of that TV gives me the impetus to keep playing the Texas Lotto...
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post #18 of 54 Old 12-23-2011, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

If Sharp introduces 90 incher next year home projector market will be on a death spiral.

How much is a 90" Sharp going to cost? I'm sure it will be more than the current crop of $1500 1080p 3D projectors and 120" screens. It will still be short on immersion and cost.

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post #19 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 01:48 AM
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How much is a 90" Sharp going to cost? I'm sure it will be more than the current crop of $1500 1080p 3D projectors and 120" screens. It will still be short on immersion and cost.

I would guess $8000 or so. I would say that $1500 projectors are not especially good, but regardless the Sharp will be infinitely longer on viewability in a lit room than any projector at $1500 or $15000. And while I wouldn't go swimming in one, it'll be plenty immersive for many.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #20 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughh View Post

Very interesting thread and especially informative posts by all, especially Rogo.

+1...

I'm a plasma guy, but moved to the 70" Sharp because I wanted more than 65/65", and the price for the 70" dropped below $2000. I've been very impressed with the PQ, and now won't hesitate to go bigger and stay with LCD.

So I am one of those consumers that Sharp had grabbed and converted...what a play by them! It seems to me that they turned the entire large-panel market upside down, and have taken it by the throat.

It will be very interesting to watch how this all evolves. I'd love a "shootout", where 70"+ plasma options compete with the (Sharp-defined) new paradigm in larger LCD panels.

Thanks again for this very interesting and informative thread!
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post #21 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by hughh View Post

...
...The screens were developed by Mitsubishi's Diamond Vision Systems. Each center-hung sideline display consists of 10,584,064 LEDs, consuming some 635,000 watts. Because each pixel consists of four LEDs (2 red, 1 green, 1 blue), the 2,176 X 4,864 LED distribution corresponds to a 1,088 X 2,432 pixel resolution. However the image can actually be considerably sharper than the resolution suggests, because Diamond Vision's "Dynamic Pixel" technology allows the corner LEDs of four neighboring pixel clusters to function as a pixel cluster together, providing virtual pixels between each physical pixel.

That bit about Dynamic Pixel technology is really interesting.

Why doesn't Mits apply some of this cutting edge tech to consumer displays...as in large flat panels for the home?

Great info.
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post #22 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 09:27 AM
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post #23 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

That bit about Dynamic Pixel technology is really interesting.

Why doesn't Mits apply some of this cutting edge tech to consumer displays...as in large flat panels for the home?

Great info.

This would require something greater than the standard 1080p resolution. ie either 4k or some increased number of subpixels. I think Sharp claims to do something similar with the 4th yellow subpixel on their quattron sets.

FYI I think the "Clear Type" feature (I think that's what it's called) in Windows also does something like this for text.

jeff
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post #24 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by greenjp View Post

This would require something greater than the standard 1080p resolution. ie either 4k or some increased number of subpixels. I think Sharp claims to do something similar with the 4th yellow subpixel on their quattron sets.

FYI I think the "Clear Type" feature (I think that's what it's called) in Windows also does something like this for text.

jeff

Thanks for the answer.

Think we'll see 4K at CES?
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post #25 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

...If Sharp introduces 90 incher next year home projector market will be on a death spiral. ...

? Front projection normally has much larger displays than that. It might make an impact on the lower end of the projector market, but I can't see it wiping out higher-end systems with bigger screens. Plus, front-projection is a mature technology. It can carry on for a long time at low volumes and still return a profit to manufaturers, retailers and installers.

Think about high-end audio systems. There is a large selection of low-volume elite equipment available. I think that big buck home theatre video will continue in the same way.

Roll-up fully scalable OLED screens or something similar might cause a death spiral, but a 90 inch solid slab of LCD? I really doubt it.
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post #26 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 12:05 PM
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...There are other reasons people don't want projectors. They need to be installed in ceilings or have cables draped around. You'd be surprised to learn that many people cannot realistically have a projector in their family room even if they wanted one as no install is viable...

Well no I'm not surprised at all. I came to exactly that conclusion a few years ago with respect to my house even though I'm in the middle of a complete interior house renovation and have all my ceilings open. Anything I say is tilted towards higher-end home theatre setups. Some people of course have accessable panels in their ceilings (there are really nice designs available now) and for others it's not that big a deal to tear down and replace drywall.
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post #27 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Thanks for the answer.

Think we'll see 4K at CES?

Here's one interesting example I'll make it a point to visit at CES: http://www.hdtv-news.com/news/toshiba-5x3/

The multi-viewer, glasses free 3D could also be huge if it works as advertised.
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post #28 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elockett View Post

Here's one interesting example I'll make it a point to visit at CES: http://www.hdtv-news.com/news/toshiba-5x3/

The multi-viewer, glasses free 3D could also be huge if it works as advertised.

All reports are the glasses free 3D was not so great, at least on the pre-production sets. You had to be in a narrow sweet spot and keep your head perfectly still. 4K will be great for passive 3D though. The one with the light cheap glasses like you get at the movies. The 4K sets will be the first to offer passive 3D in true 1080p resolution. I was really impressed with the images on the Sharp 4K2K sets using the ICC reality engine. It recreates the picture and sharps the focal points giving a sense of depth and realism to even 2D material. Don't know what kind of artifacts it would introduce on standard material though.
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post #29 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 01:00 PM
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Sorry, but at what size will these tv's require a bump in Resolution above 1080p?
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post #30 of 54 Old 12-24-2011, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by davegow View Post

Well no I'm not surprised at all. I came to exactly that conclusion a few years ago with respect to my house even though I'm in the middle of a complete interior house renovation and have all my ceilings open. Anything I say is tilted towards higher-end home theatre setups. Some people of course have accessable panels in their ceilings (there are really nice designs available now) and for others it's not that big a deal to tear down and replace drywall.

And yet still virtually no one has front projection in their family room. Trivial or not.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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