Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 352 Old 02-12-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

NintendoManiac64 might've misunderstood your first post in which case, you should always use a digital video connection (HDMI/DVI) because it has the ability to read the "dot pitch" from your TV's EDID. Dot pitch aligns each pixel's information from the source device to each individual pixel on your display. This is the clear reason that digital video is better than analog and why you should not use VGA if you have HDMI.
Just to clarify for anyone else reading, I did not misunderstand. It's just that EDSLP made it sound like he was not aware that HDMI is better than VGA even if the resolution is the same:
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Originally Posted by EJSLP View Post

it has 4.4.4 chroma and i use the HDMI because when otherwise i cant get 1080p. I onlu get a much lower res



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Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

PC label enables the 4:4:4 chroma and RGB decoding for your TV (turning it into essentially, a monitor). Without the PC label
Again for anyone else reading, the L1350U HDTV's actually have separate "Input label" and "Picture Mode" settings. The "Input label" is purely for aesthetics while the "Picture mode" is what actually changes what MDA400 is describing. More info can be found via the L1350U's user's manual on page 60 and page 73:
http://support.toshiba.com/support/staticContentDetail?contentId=3596913
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Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

your TV would be decoding YCbCr and the input delay would be more noticeable when using a device that sends RGB. If your using a computer, game console, etc, RGB is always the preferred color space. YCbCr is for compressed media like Blu-ray and DVD and has only become easier to display natively with a connection like HDMI that is the first to support it without conversion.
Another heads up for anyone else reading this, using "PC" and/or "Game" picture modes seems to partially disable the 120hz, so if you want to fully utilize the 120hz for whatever reason then use the "Standard" picture mode. More info can be found in the dedicated L1350U HDTV thread starting at the following post:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477874/toshiba-l1350u-series-2013/60#post_24177331
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post #332 of 352 Old 02-19-2014, 10:38 AM
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Has anyone had luck getting 4:4:4 on a Seiki 4K TV in 3840x2160? The "remove HDMI extension from EDID" fix will get the TV to do 4:4:4 in 1080p mode, but because DVI doesn't go up to 4K output, it doesn't seem to help in that mode. Any ideas? Any success with other 4K TVs?
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post #333 of 352 Old 02-21-2014, 04:10 PM
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Hello,
I wanted to thank a poster in this forum (can't remember his name) for helping me sort out how to output 4:4:4 on my 2009 Samsung LE37B651 from my laptop by HDMI!!
I had tried and checked without success until I read that if I change the HDMI3/DVI label to PC with the remote it turns into a predefined mode in which it passes the 4:4:4 test. Some Image options are greyed out, I can't choose Game Mode or Color Saturation or Sharpness or Color Gamut. I had tried EDID override, and various RBG/YCC options in other HDMI ports to no avail. It's great to have 4:4:4 to 1:1 pixel accuracy. I must say that in the end there is not so much difference from non 4:4:4, I only get to see it in the red fine red test patterns, otherwise black text in web pages renders about the same. Thank you posters again!, you can find almost everything here from others!
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post #334 of 352 Old 03-13-2014, 03:17 PM
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For Nvidia card users, is the EDIX fix still required to get proper 4:4:4 out of a 4:4:4 TV?
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post #335 of 352 Old 04-01-2014, 08:38 AM
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Are TVs still being added to the original post? If so, here's my TV findings

Year Brand Model 4:4:4 Proof Notes
2011 Samsung PN64D8000 PASS A (64" Plasma. Works in all modes, not just PC mode)


Have you considered adding HDMI AV receivers too? I assumed my TV couldn't do 4:4:4 until I discovered it was the HDMI passthrough on my receiver

Year Brand Model 4:4:4 Proof Notes
2010 Onkyo TX-NR808 PASS A None
2012 Denon AVR-3312CI FAIL A Maintains 4:4:4 with "Video Convert" turned off but then it clips levels to 16-235
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post #336 of 352 Old 04-01-2014, 03:05 PM
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Not sure if this has been posted but the 2013 Sony KDL-W900a will display 4:4:4 in PC and Game mode.
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post #337 of 352 Old 04-17-2014, 07:03 PM
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Hi All

In Australia we have an LG XXLN5400, which is a 50 Hz full high-definition TV. And the rest of the world has the LG XXLN5400 which is 120 Hz full high-definition TV, which is not confusing at all biggrin.gif.

After a little bit of digging I have realised that the Australian LG XXLN5400 is an equivalent spec version to be LG XXLN5300 that is available in the US. A big advantage of the Australian LG XXLN5400 is that it comes with an IPS screen by default. I do own a LG 32LK450 with an IPS screen and have been looking at getting another version very similar. The problem has been that there are little specifications on the Australian LG XXLN5400 and its support for 4:4:4 is when you Google it you find the international version.

I decided to take the plunge and purchase the Australian LG XXLN5400 and can confirm that it is IPS screen ( Chevron ) and it supports subgroup sampling 4:4:4. It operates just like the LG 32LK450 in my opinion.

Unfortunately, this model the Australian LG XXLN5400 is a 2013 model and are to be discontinued as far as I'm aware. I purchased the Australian LG 32LN5400 and because I got a good deal, 375 AUD at the good guys. I did see a request on the message board sometime ago about the Australian LG XXLN5400 so if you need cheap good TV is a PC monitor I would strongly recommend it.

- Phil
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post #338 of 352 Old 05-14-2014, 08:37 PM
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Hey everyone, I have a quick question regarding HDTV's that can/cannot support 4:4:4 Chroma and next-gen console gaming (specifically the PS4/Xbox One). The first post here says that for console gaming, a 4:4:4 Chroma compatible HDTV is not needed. Now that the next-gen consoles that are out are built more similarly to a PC, would I need a HDTV that can support 4:4:4 chroma to get the optimal PS4/Xbox One image? Is the difference in picture quality of next-gen console gaming on a 4:4:4 HDTV and a non-4:4:4 HDTV that noticeable? Thank you for the help, it's much appreciated!

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post #339 of 352 Old 05-15-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Is the difference in picture quality of next-gen console gaming on a 4:4:4 HDTV and a non-4:4:4 HDTV that noticeable? Thank you for the help, it's much appreciated!
doubtful ........... it all gets converted to RGB before it gets to the panel in the TV anyway.
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post #340 of 352 Old 05-15-2014, 04:02 PM
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I would disagree. The main reason why 4:4:4 TVs with last-gen consoles wasn't seen as useful was because 99.99% of all games rendered at resolutions less than 1080p anyway, most at around 720p. With many more games now rendering natively at 1080p there would be a difference, but I personally cannot attest to how much of a difference there would be.
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post #341 of 352 Old 05-15-2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
NintendoManiac6 wrote,
I would disagree. The main reason why 4:4:4 TVs with last-gen consoles wasn't seen as useful was because 99.99% of all games rendered at resolutions less than 1080p anyway, most at around 720p. With many more games now rendering natively at 1080p there would be a difference, but I personally cannot attest to how much of a difference there would be.

That may be true sometimes ? Although I thought is was mostly for PC games? I'm still PS 3 here ,could be the PS4 and Xbone 1 might better utilize 4:4:4: ?
I believe all Sony's support 4:4:4 my new one does so does my 2012 Toshiba.

In case anyone is interested

2012 Toshiba 32C120U supports 4:4:4

2013 Sony KDL 40R450A supports 4:4:4
( I believe all the Sony's do ? )

The Soviet people feared the KGB was watching them through their TV's ........or listening to them through their radios, so they kept them turned off often when they wanted privacy .

Now the NSA/ DHS are in fact watching us with our computers cell phones surveillance cameras drones,satellites etc !
...
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post #342 of 352 Old 05-16-2014, 04:17 PM
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Well all I know is that many PS4 games render at a true 1920x1080. I will say that it never crossed my mind that the console itself could be outputting a reduced chroma signal, but I would think that would be a bit pointless since the video signal is generated in real-time anyway so reducing the chroma will have absolutely no benefit.
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post #343 of 352 Old 05-18-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post


doubtful ........... it all gets converted to RGB before it gets to the panel in the TV anyway.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post

I would disagree. The main reason why 4:4:4 TVs with last-gen consoles wasn't seen as useful was because 99.99% of all games rendered at resolutions less than 1080p anyway, most at around 720p. With many more games now rendering natively at 1080p there would be a difference, but I personally cannot attest to how much of a difference there would be.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post


That may be true sometimes ? Although I thought is was mostly for PC games? I'm still PS 3 here ,could be the PS4 and Xbone 1 might better utilize 4:4:4: ?
I believe all Sony's support 4:4:4 my new one does so does my 2012 Toshiba.

In case anyone is interested

2012 Toshiba 32C120U supports 4:4:4

2013 Sony KDL 40R450A supports 4:4:4
( I believe all the Sony's do ? )

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post

Well all I know is that many PS4 games render at a true 1920x1080. I will say that it never crossed my mind that the console itself could be outputting a reduced chroma signal, but I would think that would be a bit pointless since the video signal is generated in real-time anyway so reducing the chroma will have absolutely no benefit.

Thanks for all the replies! It seems that the verdict is weighing more heavily on there being a difference when playing on a 4:4:4 chroma enabled HDTV as opposed to not. I guess the only way I can know for sure is by doing a side by side comparison. The reason why I'm being so picky about this is because I'm stuck having to make a decision on a TV that compromises a bit on PQ and value (but does have a 4:4:4 chroma mode) versus a TV that has better picture quality, but since it is older (in the era of current-gen consoles) it does not have a 4:4:4 mode. I certainly do not want to make the wrong decision, as given my current budget I have but one chance at this. Regardless, I appreciate the input, and if anyone else has anything to add to this that would be great!

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post #344 of 352 Old 05-18-2014, 04:10 PM
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IMO long and short of it would be , better to have good 4:4:2 picture than a crappy 4:4:4 picture eek.gif

The Soviet people feared the KGB was watching them through their TV's ........or listening to them through their radios, so they kept them turned off often when they wanted privacy .

Now the NSA/ DHS are in fact watching us with our computers cell phones surveillance cameras drones,satellites etc !
...
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post #345 of 352 Old 06-06-2014, 02:17 PM
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A long time has passed, but I just thought I would add my support to the findings starting at post 800 in this thread.

I have a AMD Radeon HD5450 in my old living room Media PC and its connected to my Onkyo SR-608 receiver via HDMI and then from my receiver to my Television, an old Samsung LNT4065 (Actually its a LE40M86BD in Europe).

I have the television in "pc" mode and the display resolution setting and picture mode of the Onkyo both set to "Through". Aspect Ratio of "Auto"

Initially I thought the problem passing chroma 4:4:4 was down to connecting the video card to the television via the receiver, because when I connected the video card directly, the T.V passed the Chroma 4:4:4: tests.

I then learn't about the conflict between HDMI audio and 4:4:4 and it confused me. Could the reason I don't get 4:4:4 when connected to the Onkyo be down to EDID? Since the Onkyo will be reading the 8ch sound capability?

Why if I connect directly do I get 4:4:4 gamma, but through the receiver I don't?

I think there must be a load of people out there in my situation, not realising that when they are setting 4:4:4 in their driver that in fact they are losing that information and are instead using the likes of Mad VR to convert 4:2:0 sources to 4:4:4 instead of 4:2:2 when their display/receiver isn't receiving it anyway. In fact I've read elsewhere its been recommended to set 4:4:4 RGB...which is completely wrong if you have trouble like me.

So how on earth can I test to see if this is the fault of my video card or receiver?

1. I have tested with my laptop with integrated 4600 graphics. The same occurs. When connected directly. Pass. When connected via my Receiver. Fail.

So is this a common issue affecting AMD, Nvidia and Intel? What's the likelyhood of this compared to Onkyo being at fault? Can anyone explain why it works when connected directly but not through my receiver?

What I don't quite understand though are the options in the AMD CCC.

There's Y'CbCr 4:4:4 and 4:4:2 options.

But there's only RGB 4:4:4 Full and 4:4:4 Limited options.

So theoretically, you want to be outputting in RGB, but if you can't output RGV 4:4:2, is it wiser to keep with Y'CbCr?

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post #346 of 352 Old 06-07-2014, 04:59 PM
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Update - Contacted Onkyo and they mentioned the SR-608 doesn't pass 4:4:4. So best to keep with Y'CbCr 4:2:2 in AMD CCC even though it's said that video cards internally convert from RGB?

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post #347 of 352 Old 06-12-2014, 10:35 PM
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When I enable "Pure Direct" on my Panasonic VT60, the black bar at the right of a large red square ends up at the left and it *seems* the right side has a perfect red line. Does this mean I was not, in fact, getting a true 4:4:4 signal or is this the result I would hope for?

The source is the Spears & Munsil Chroma Alignment pattern fed through an NVIDIA GPU set to YCbCr444.
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post #348 of 352 Old 06-13-2014, 02:56 AM
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I found the images hard to follow.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=19843

This image is much clearer.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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post #349 of 352 Old 06-14-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
I found the images hard to follow.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=19843

This image is much clearer.

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Thanks! With that image, it turns out my TV on "Pure Direct" and my monitor are showing 4:4:4.
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post #350 of 352 Old 06-14-2014, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
I found the images hard to follow.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1640299&postcount=19843

This image is much clearer.
Hah, that's a brilliant image!

The only issue is, it assumes that you're running at least a 1920x1080 display... I may make an edit and put together a 720p-friendly version.


EDIT: Heh, technologically though it's not so brilliant. I was able to losslessly recompress it from 20KB to 2KB. :P


EDIT 2: Well that was pretty easy. Behold, the same thing but as a 960x720 image!



(BTW, this test totally doesn't work on a CRT. It shows both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 clearly. )

Last edited by NintendoManiac64; 06-14-2014 at 01:19 PM.
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post #351 of 352 Old 07-08-2014, 12:25 PM
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What happens if I play a Blu-ray or DVD on a TV with 4:4:4 PC mode enabled? Is that a big "No! No!"?
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post #352 of 352 Old 07-08-2014, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
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What happens if I play a Blu-ray or DVD on a TV with 4:4:4 PC mode enabled? Is that a big "No! No!"?
I think the color space is more of an issue since the 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 chroma by definition are just reductions of the full 4:4:4 chroma. But even then, converting color spaces isn't really a crime, it's just sub-optimal.


For reference, displaying 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 chroma on a 4:4:4 display is kind of like displaying a 256 color gif on any modern display capable of displaying millions of colors.
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