Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
I wish it was edid. @asou68 how old is your tv? Is it a Samsung?

Shouldn't matter unless it's an older CRT . oh .....4:4:4: is not gamma it is chroma (color )
Could be the Onkyo does not want to pass 4:4:4

I don't know why it wouldn't in direct mode though but then it is an Onkyo
they have had HDMI issues since there was HDMI and still do .

.Have you tried overriding or turning off EDID in AMD Catalyst ?

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August 1994, DDC standard version 1 – EDID v1.0 structure.
April 1996, EDID standard version 2 – EDID v1.1 structure.
1997, EDID standard version 3 – EDID structures v1.2 and v2.0
February 2000, E-EDID Standard Release A, v1.0 – EDID structure v1.3, EDID structure v2.0 deprecated
September 2006 – E-EDID Standard Release A, v2.0 – EDID structure v1.4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extende...ification_data

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Old 07-14-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
EDID is working like it should ☺ Try playing DVD in PC to tv see what happens DVD/BD is natively 4:4:2 anyway though.
Do you mean for me to play a DVD in my laptop when it's connected to the TV?

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I wish it was edid. @asou68 how old is your tv? Is it a Samsung?
It was bought a few years ago, it's a 40" Samsung D5003, I think.
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by asou68 View Post
Do you mean for me to play a DVD in my laptop when it's connected to the TV?



It was bought a few years ago, it's a 40" Samsung D5003, I think.
yes from your laptop if it has HDMI or mini HDMI or mini display port video output you may need an adapter cable or adapter + HDMI cable to plug into HDMI on TV .

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Old 07-20-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
yes from your laptop if it has HDMI or mini HDMI or mini display port video output you may need an adapter cable or adapter + HDMI cable to plug into HDMI on TV .
When I play a blu-ray in my laptop & display it on the TV, nothing happens; PC mode isn't turned off or anything. This the expected result, no? I mean, how could the TV know the laptop is playing a Blu-ray as apposed to say.... a video game?

Also another question, I use PC mode for my Xbox 360. I find it gives a crisper picture & improved input, but does it still make sense to use the Brightness & Contrast settings I've gotten from the AVS 709 HD basic patterns on my blu-ray player? The Color, Tint & Color Space options are all greyed out on PC Mode, so I assume they are irrelevant.

One more question: in PC mode, Sharpness is set to 50, which from what I read on the previous pages is necessary for PC mode. And this sharpness test image has been posted:

http://web.comhem.se/zacabeb/reposit..._test_1080.png

...what am I looking for in this image to check sharpness?

Thanks!
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:48 AM
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I was wondering, is there any way to enable 4:4:4 on a Samsung TV (UE32EH5000 in this case) without using PC Mode? Because PC Mode looks horrible, and many settings can't be changed in that mode.
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:49 PM
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I have a x850b but can't test 4k/60hz at 4:2:0 until next week when my 980gtx comes in. Does anyone have experience playing games at 4:2:0 and can speak to how noticeable for it. I've heard some say for fast action games that sampling is hardly detectable.

Currently, I'm deciding whether to keep the x850b or trade it in for a Vizio P, which is rumored to have 4:4:4 at 4k/60hz.
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Old 09-28-2014, 01:41 PM
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Its been confirmed that the P series can not do 4:4:4 at 4k/60hz. So far only the latest LGs can do this, but of course they have horrible input lag.

*Edit:
I believe the Toshiba 65L9400U can do this as well, not sure what the input lag on those are.

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Last edited by Snipe3000; 09-28-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe3000 View Post
Its been confirmed that the P series can not do 4:4:4 at 4k/60hz. So far only the latest LGs can do this, but of course they have horrible input lag.

*Edit:
I believe the Toshiba 65L9400U can do this as well, not sure what the input lag on those are.
Please clarify - cannot do it AT ALL or cannot do it via HDMI? So, can you get full color resolution or just RGB signal via displayport, for example?
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Old 09-28-2014, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by maxl View Post
Please clarify - cannot do it AT ALL or cannot do it via HDMI? So, can you get full color resolution or just RGB signal via displayport, for example?
Well hdmi is the only choice what are you unsure of? Early reports are no it can't do it. Am I missing something friend?
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Old 09-28-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by maxl View Post
Please clarify - cannot do it AT ALL or cannot do it via HDMI? So, can you get full color resolution or just RGB signal via displayport, for example?
If you want to do it on the Vizio, you'll have to run at 30hz, there is no display port on the vizio. It would work on the vizio, but there is HDCP 2.2 on the port needed, so thats the main reason why it will not work.
The Vizio P series owners thread has loads of info for you.
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe3000 View Post
If you want to do it on the Vizio, you'll have to run at 30hz, there is no display port on the vizio. It would work on the vizio, but there is HDCP 2.2 on the port needed, so thats the main reason why it will not work.
The Vizio P series owners thread has loads of info for you.
When I play a pc game in 4k30 4:4:4 and then go to 4k60 4:2:0 I don't see any difference in the quality of the game color or detail. Do games display in 444? I'm using a titan and have tried on seiki, lg, Samsung and sony 4k sets.
thanks
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traumadisaster View Post
When I play a pc game in 4k30 4:4:4 and then go to 4k60 4:2:0 I don't see any difference in the quality of the game color or detail. Do games display in 444? I'm using a titan and have tried on seiki, lg, Samsung and sony 4k sets.
thanks
When things are moving on the screen, you might not notice the color sampling compression. Its mostly an issue for those looking at still images and text.

Im also trying to decide on if Im going to get the Vizio P, and just deal with the 4:2:0, or maybe try out the Toshiba, which I think allows full 4:4:4 at 4k/60hz

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Old 09-28-2014, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipe3000 View Post
If you want to do it on the Vizio, you'll have to run at 30hz, there is no display port on the vizio. It would work on the vizio, but there is HDCP 2.2 on the port needed, so thats the main reason why it will not work.
The Vizio P series owners thread has loads of info for you.
Got it, thanks. I assumed it had more inputs than just HDMI. I'm looking for a large display (70" or larger) for high-res photo slideshows, and lack of color resolution would definitely be noticeable in this use case. Too bad - it looks like a very good and bargain-priced option otherwise.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by maxl View Post
Got it, thanks. I assumed it had more inputs than just HDMI. I'm looking for a large display (70" or larger) for high-res photo slideshows, and lack of color resolution would definitely be noticeable in this use case. Too bad - it looks like a very good and bargain-priced option otherwise.
You might be a candidate for the Toshiba if it does what they say. Although it is 5 inches smaller and cost a few hundred more.

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Old 09-30-2014, 07:41 AM
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Does anyone know if the Samsung 60F5300 plasma accepts 4:4:4 without issues?

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Old 10-03-2014, 09:13 PM
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Can anyone confirm that the f9000 samsung does / does not achieve 4K /60Hz with full chroma 444 using the 2014 one connect box w/ HDMI2.0 inputs, and latest firmware? If so, please provide details in your reply.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipe3000 View Post
Its been confirmed that the P series can not do 4:4:4 at 4k/60hz. So far only the latest LGs can do this, but of course they have horrible input lag.

*Edit:
I believe the Toshiba 65L9400U can do this as well, not sure what the input lag on those are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxl View Post
Please clarify - cannot do it AT ALL or cannot do it via HDMI? So, can you get full color resolution or just RGB signal via displayport, for example?


Results of the P-55 attempting to do 4K@60hz. Graphics card is an EVGA 970. According to Nvidia, the 900 series also do not to 4:2:2 over the HDMI connection.

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Old 10-09-2014, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traumadisaster View Post
When I play a pc game in 4k30 4:4:4 and then go to 4k60 4:2:0 I don't see any difference in the quality of the game color or detail. Do games display in 444? I'm using a titan and have tried on seiki, lg, Samsung and sony 4k sets.
thanks
Games are *definitely* in full 444 chroma.
If you can't tell the difference between 420 chroma and 444 chroma in games, then you must be getting 420 at all times in games. To see what others are seeing, do this: on desktop switch between 4k/ 30Hz and 4K /24hz (or 4K /60Hz, both 24 and 60 have the same chroma bug). That's the difference we're seeing in games and Blu rays, and the degradation is even worse in 3D.
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Old 10-09-2014, 03:11 PM
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You can make absolute sure that you're getting 4:4:4 with the following image at native 100% zoom:
http://i.minus.com/ibyJcwdIniHUEs.png

I recommend opening and viewing the image in MS Paint so as to avoid any DPI scaling issues that affects images in some web browsers and image viewers.
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Last edited by NintendoManiac64; 10-09-2014 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 10-09-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Games are *definitely* in full 444 chroma.
If you can't tell the difference between 420 chroma and 444 chroma in games, then you must be getting 420 at all times in games. To see what others are seeing, do this: on desktop switch between 4k/ 30Hz and 4K /24hz (or 4K /60Hz, both 24 and 60 have the same chroma bug). That's the difference we're seeing in games and Blu rays, and the degradation is even worse in 3D.
I have switched between and looked at the same gta4 character in the same location and stared at his pants, face, surroundings, sky, etc. and there is no difference for me in any resolution and hz. I see the same color and contrast in the folds of his pants and the bricks in the buildings so I must be missing something.


Tell me what you see different in a blu ray since the br is outputting 4:2:0?


btw Best Buy still doesn't have a 50 or 60 inch in yet in Charlotte NC but do have a 55. I will take either.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:10 AM
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I just got confirmation from a Sharp Tech that the Sharp 4K "Sharp AQUOS LC70UD27U does support 4:4:4 sampling when using analog RGB video."

Correction: Sharp has corrected their response and has told us to ignore any mentions of 'analog RGB video'. Any 4:4:4 source going into HDMI 3 will display at 4:4:4, including HDMI.

Last edited by wadalove; 12-03-2014 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Sharp Corrects Their Response on 4:4:4 support
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Old 10-10-2014, 01:35 PM
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I just got confirmation from a Sharp Tech that the Sharp 4K "Sharp AQUOS LC70UD27U does support 4:4:4 sampling when using analog RGB video."
This is strange - 4:4:4 does not even apply to analog RGB video, because the video is analog. Is there even a way to send 4K analog video?
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Old 10-10-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
You can make absolute sure that you're getting 4:4:4 with the following image at native 100% zoom:
http://i.minus.com/ibyJcwdIniHUEs.png

I recommend opening and viewing the image in MS Paint so as to avoid any DPI scaling issues that affects images in some web browsers and image viewers.
Ok, so what is it supposed to look like if you have 4:4:4, and what would it look like if you didn't have 4:4:4?
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Old 10-10-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traumadisaster View Post
I have switched between and looked at the same gta4 character in the same location and stared at his pants, face, surroundings, sky, etc. and there is no difference for me in any resolution and hz. I see the same color and contrast in the folds of his pants and the bricks in the buildings so I must be missing something.


Tell me what you see different in a blu ray since the br is outputting 4:2:0?


btw Best Buy still doesn't have a 50 or 60 inch in yet in Charlotte NC but do have a 55. I will take either.
Have you done the "quick brown fox test" on desktop? What TV do you have?
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:53 PM
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Ok, so what is it supposed to look like if you have 4:4:4, and what would it look like if you didn't have 4:4:4?
...it should be pretty self-explainatory. If you can easily read the 4:4:4 but the 4:2:2 is difficult to read, then you've got full 4:4:4 chroma. If it's difficult to read the 4:4:4 but you can easily read the 4:2:2, then you have reduced chroma (4:2:2 or 4:2:0).


Disclaimer: I did not make the image, I only cropped and moved some pixels so that it'd fit 720p displays.
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Old 10-10-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
...it should be pretty self-explainatory. If you can easily read the 4:4:4 but the 4:2:2 is difficult to read, then you've got full 4:4:4 chroma. If it's difficult to read the 4:4:4 but you can easily read the 4:2:2, then you have reduced chroma (4:2:2 or 4:2:0).


Disclaimer: I did not make the image, I only cropped and moved some pixels so that it'd fit 720p displays.
Ah ok, I've definitely got 4:4:4 then. Just wanted to make sure, because I could still make out the 4:2:2, but the 4:4:4 is definitively more clear. I thought maybe I wasn't supposed to be seeing the 4:2:2 at all. Thanks for this, I like it better than that red circle on blue test image.
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Have you done the "quick brown fox test" on desktop? What TV do you have?
I've tested on Seiki 4k 50 inch and 4k 2014 models of:
LG
Samsung
Sony x850b
I will google the brown test but I don't play that as a game. In games I don't notice anything.


1 - how does it matter for blu rays since they output in 4:2:0?


2 - could someone with better skills than me post a game pic side by side of 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 and draw an arrow to the difference?
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Originally Posted by traumadisaster View Post
I've tested on Seiki 4k 50 inch and 4k 2014 models of:
LG
Samsung
Sony x850b
I will google the brown test but I don't play that as a game. In games I don't notice anything.


1 - how does it matter for blu rays since they output in 4:2:0?


2 - could someone with better skills than me post a game pic side by side of 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 and draw an arrow to the difference?
Gaming: My experience is with the samsung 4K, not the sony.
On the samsung 4K, games played in 2D don't show degradation as much as there is color difference 420 vs 444. Since I don't game in 2D, I don't know if the colors can be fixed. But in 3D there is considerable degradation going from 444 chroma to 420 chroma. If one is Okay with seeing the world in 2D rather than natural realistic 3D, then I suppose 420 may be a viable alternative in games.

2. Blu Rays:
Perhaps your logic is that a 420 encoded blu ray will wind up being 420 regardless, but it doesn't work that way. 420 Chroma subsampling reduces the color resolution by 75%. So a 420 blu ray will be reduced to 1/4 color resolution on the disc, then get a second 75% reduction when the 420 HDTV reduces it when it sends it through a second 420 color reducer. If a 444 HDTV, then you don't get the second 75% reduction. If 420 HDTV, you get 1/4 of the color res of the 1/4 color res pixels on the disc. That's why the panasonic colors are so outstanding in 4K.
On a samsung, 2D blu rays look as good as any because they are upscaled to 4K/30Hz, so playback is in 444 chroma. But 3D blu rays are played back at 24Hz, so they get the second 75% reduction and are significantly ugly, you can see the degradation instantly. Luckily there's a fix, otherwise, I wouldn't even consider a samsung: The program is 'Stereoscopic Player' v2.14. There's an option for SBS mode which results in playback of 3D blu rays at 30Hz, so full 444 chroma playback. The image quality is outstanding! SOOOOO much better than any mainsteam player like the cyberlink which doesn't offer either SBS or top/bottom. It cost 39 euros (the vendor is in Austria) but worth 10 times that.
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Old 10-12-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Gaming: My experience is with the samsung 4K, not the sony.
On the samsung 4K, games played in 2D don't show degradation as much as there is color difference 420 vs 444. Since I don't game in 2D, I don't know if the colors can be fixed. But in 3D there is considerable degradation going from 444 chroma to 420 chroma. If one is Okay with seeing the world in 2D rather than natural realistic 3D, then I suppose 420 may be a viable alternative in games.

2. Blu Rays:
Perhaps your logic is that a 420 encoded blu ray will wind up being 420 regardless, but it doesn't work that way. 420 Chroma subsampling reduces the color resolution by 75%. So a 420 blu ray will be reduced to 1/4 color resolution on the disc, then get a second 75% reduction when the 420 HDTV reduces it when it sends it through a second 420 color reducer. If a 444 HDTV, then you don't get the second 75% reduction. If 420 HDTV, you get 1/4 of the color res of the 1/4 color res pixels on the disc. That's why the panasonic colors are so outstanding in 4K.
On a samsung, 2D blu rays look as good as any because they are upscaled to 4K/30Hz, so playback is in 444 chroma. But 3D blu rays are played back at 24Hz, so they get the second 75% reduction and are significantly ugly, you can see the degradation instantly. Luckily there's a fix, otherwise, I wouldn't even consider a samsung: The program is 'Stereoscopic Player' v2.14. There's an option for SBS mode which results in playback of 3D blu rays at 30Hz, so full 444 chroma playback. The image quality is outstanding! SOOOOO much better than any mainsteam player like the cyberlink which doesn't offer either SBS or top/bottom. It cost 39 euros (the vendor is in Austria) but worth 10 times that.
Thank you for the response.
1. Is there a way this can be verified other than your subjective review? Such as a screen shot comparing 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 and highlighting the "degradation?"
2. Where can I find confirmation of the "second 75% reduction" because I can't seem to find that searching.
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Old 10-12-2014, 04:16 PM
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Thank you for the response.
1. Is there a way this can be verified other than your subjective review? Such as a screen shot comparing 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 and highlighting the "degradation?"
2. Where can I find confirmation of the "second 75% reduction" because I can't seem to find that searching.
1. Since your sony is passive 3D and my evaluation is in active 3D, I don't think there is any way to show 3D degradation.

2. Go to wikipedia and look up 'chroma sub sampling'. It will explain the relationship between chroma and luminance. It also has some interesting photos of side by side objects in 420 vs 444.
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