Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 417 Old 10-17-2014, 12:41 PM
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My Sony W900A can not only do 4:4:4, but it can also handle 4:4:4+audio over HDMI with no EDID overrides. Awesome!! As far as AVRs go, my Onkyo TX-NR3010 was NOT passing 4:4:4 no matter what I tried, when using the HDMI Main output. The only thing that got 4:4:4 through the Onkyo was to switch to the HDMI Sub output which apparently bypasses the main video processor completely and does a proper pass-through.

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post #392 of 417 Old 10-23-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MyKillK View Post
My Sony W900A can not only do 4:4:4, but it can also handle 4:4:4+audio over HDMI with no EDID overrides. Awesome!! As far as AVRs go, my Onkyo TX-NR3010 was NOT passing 4:4:4 no matter what I tried, when using the HDMI Main output. The only thing that got 4:4:4 through the Onkyo was to switch to the HDMI Sub output which apparently bypasses the main video processor completely and does a proper pass-through.
Is that 4k or am I missing something? I thought 1080p with chroma of 4:4:4 was not at question?
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post #393 of 417 Old 10-27-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by traumadisaster View Post
I thought 1080p with chroma of 4:4:4 was not at question?
On my samsung 65hu8550, I tested 1080P at 24,30,50, 60 Hz with the 'quick brown fox' test. 24,30,50 all were displaying 420 chroma. Only 60Hz was 444. 1080i was 420 chroma.
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post #394 of 417 Old 10-27-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
You can make absolute sure that you're getting 4:4:4 with the following image at native 100% zoom:
http://i.minus.com/ibyJcwdIniHUEs.png

I recommend opening and viewing the image in MS Paint so as to avoid any DPI scaling issues that affects images in some web browsers and image viewers.
Thanks for posting this. One of the easiest ways to determine your display. I just verified my new Sony 70w840b (feb 2014) is 4:4:4 compliant in game mode and 4:2:2 in cinema mode. Also I checked my 2 LCD monitors LG 32LD450 (4:4:4) via dvi-to-hdmi nvidia gtx670 and Benq BL2411 (4:4:4) via vga cable onboard amd gpu.
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post #395 of 417 Old 10-28-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by traumadisaster View Post
Is that 4k or am I missing something? I thought 1080p with chroma of 4:4:4 was not at question?
Nobody questioned chroma at 4K /24Hz either until Sep.19, 2014. But degraded 420 chroma was there for all to see ever since the HU series came out in March 2014. Only requirement is a video card that does 4K res 444 chroma, which most people have in their computers.
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post #396 of 417 Old 11-13-2014, 10:40 AM
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HDCP 2.2 is dogshit.

Please tell me the quote below from the CNET review of the Vizio P series 55 inch is NOT accurate.

"Like most 4K sets, the Vizio P series can't accept 4:4:4 chroma subsampling signals via any of its inputs. The company claims that's because three of the ports are compatible with HDCP 2.2, which doesn't allow 4:4:4 signals. This isn't a big deal to us since, once again, the only common 4:4:4 sources come from PCs."

Does this mean that HDCP 2.2 (HDMI 2.0) has a requirement to NOT include Chroma 4:4:4 at 4k60z?

I know that the Vizio P series can accept 4:4:4 1080P@120hz but not 4k60z, the question is why? If HDCP 2.2 is the problem then Displayport is most assuredly the future for everyone on this forum.


More info:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/tel...cp-2-2-1256763

"High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection can be used to secure the transmission of digital assets, be they broadcast or media. Without a device-to-device handshake, HDCP 2.2 delivered content isn't going to make it onto any screen. Unfortunately HDCP 2.2 chip availability is trailing behind 4K product roll-outs.

Trouble ahead

Chris Pinder heads up HDConnectivity, video distribution specialists for the custom install industry. "Yes I see trouble ahead," he confided to me. One complication is backwards compatibility, he says. "An HDCP 2.2 device would not work in the mix with any (currently available) HDCP 2.1 (and below) TV or sources. Everything has to be 2.2."

Pointedly Pinder points out that the likes of Sky may actually have no intention of implementing HDCP 2.2, simply because the chipset would not only drive up the cost of any new HEVC Sky box but limit compatibility with available 4K displays.

Conversely, a 4K Blu-ray player could circumnavigate the HDCP 2.2 headache by offering two HDMI outputs, with one going directly to the screen (which would then also need to be HDCP 2.2 compliant). But we could speculate until we go 4:4:4 blue in the face.

If all this is all beginning to sound like a hideous mess, that's because 4K UHD's standards are a hideous mess"

For example: http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-un65hu9000/ go to HDCP 2.2 in the article.

Apparently the SiL9679 chip being used by TV manufacturers for HDCP 2.2 support over HDMI 2.0, the only such chip available currently, is only capable of up to 4:2:0 chroma at 4K at 60 hz. Anyone looking for full RGB color at 4K60 on a TV should try to find one without HDCP 2.2 and hopefully using another chip, if this is the case.
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post #397 of 417 Old 11-13-2014, 01:29 PM
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That seems strange since DisplayPost 1.3 is also compatible with (though not required to use) HDCP 2.2, and 4:4:4 chroma is obviously very important to the PC industry.

Either there's been a misunderstanding, or HDMI 2.0 is truely becoming a mess. If the latter, then trying to retain backwards compatibility with the same connector seems to be causing more headaches than just going with a completely different connector that's guaranteed to work such as USB C-type (with DisplayPort Alt mode).
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post #398 of 417 Old 11-15-2014, 09:15 AM
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Hi guys ,

I was about to purchase the Sharp AQUOS LC-70UD27U , until i saw all this stuff about 4:4:4 Chroma , that i had no idea about , and this really matters to me as I have my PC hooked to my TV for watching movies , series and gaming. and I plan on gaming @4k60hz aswell. ( yes my PC is super beefy )

I thought before buying the LC-70UD27U , to ask sharp via facebook first and I received this answer :

"We apologize for the delay. The Sharp AQUOS LC-70UD27U supports 4K@60Hz but 4:4:4 chroma sub-sampling is only available via analog RGB video."

I dont get it entirely ,what do they mean by "via analog RGB video" ? Are they talking about those colored old cables ? is this a good or a bad thing ? can someone please explain ? thx
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post #399 of 417 Old 11-15-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastuch View Post
Please tell me the quote below from the CNET review of the Vizio P series 55 inch is NOT accurate.

"Like most 4K sets, the Vizio P series can't accept 4:4:4 chroma subsampling signals via any of its inputs. The company claims that's because three of the ports are compatible with HDCP 2.2, which doesn't allow 4:4:4 signals. This isn't a big deal to us since, once again, the only common 4:4:4 sources come from PCs."

Does this mean that HDCP 2.2 (HDMI 2.0) has a requirement to NOT include Chroma 4:4:4 at 4k60z?

I know that the Vizio P series can accept 4:4:4 1080P@120hz but not 4k60z, the question is why? If HDCP 2.2 is the problem then Displayport is most assuredly the future for everyone on this forum.


More info:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/tel...cp-2-2-1256763

"High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection can be used to secure the transmission of digital assets, be they broadcast or media. Without a device-to-device handshake, HDCP 2.2 delivered content isn't going to make it onto any screen. Unfortunately HDCP 2.2 chip availability is trailing behind 4K product roll-outs.

Trouble ahead

Chris Pinder heads up HDConnectivity, video distribution specialists for the custom install industry. "Yes I see trouble ahead," he confided to me. One complication is backwards compatibility, he says. "An HDCP 2.2 device would not work in the mix with any (currently available) HDCP 2.1 (and below) TV or sources. Everything has to be 2.2."

Pointedly Pinder points out that the likes of Sky may actually have no intention of implementing HDCP 2.2, simply because the chipset would not only drive up the cost of any new HEVC Sky box but limit compatibility with available 4K displays.

Conversely, a 4K Blu-ray player could circumnavigate the HDCP 2.2 headache by offering two HDMI outputs, with one going directly to the screen (which would then also need to be HDCP 2.2 compliant). But we could speculate until we go 4:4:4 blue in the face.

If all this is all beginning to sound like a hideous mess, that's because 4K UHD's standards are a hideous mess"

For example: http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-un65hu9000/ go to HDCP 2.2 in the article.

Apparently the SiL9679 chip being used by TV manufacturers for HDCP 2.2 support over HDMI 2.0, the only such chip available currently, is only capable of up to 4:2:0 chroma at 4K at 60 hz. Anyone looking for full RGB color at 4K60 on a TV should try to find one without HDCP 2.2 and hopefully using another chip, if this is the case.

I don't believe that HDCP cares about 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:0. However the limited bandwidth implementations of HDMI 2.0 simply cannot support the data rates necessary for 4K video using 4:4:4 except at 24Hz and 30Hz. Silicon Image (SI) has just started shipping their new Sil 9777 full bandwidth (i.e., 18 Gbps) HDMI 2.0 chip with HDCP 2.2. This should be able to support 4:4:4 for 4K@60, but even then only as long as the bit-depth is only 8-bits per color. At higher bit depths you will be limited to 4:2:2 (at 12-bit depth) or 4:2:0 (at 16-bit depth).

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post #400 of 417 Old 11-16-2014, 02:22 PM
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Does anyone know of an inexpensive plasma or LCD that's at least 60" that supports 4:4:4?

In particular I am interested in the LG 60PB5600. Also, if someone is familiar with these, I am wondering if they have image retention problems when used with computers. I am looking for an inexpensive large television for some light gaming and presentation use to replace a projector in a small classroom. It is not a problem for the lights to be dimmed so I am not worried about the brightness of the panel.

Thanks
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post #401 of 417 Old 11-16-2014, 04:46 PM
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which of .... LG 32ls3400 or LG 42ls3400 has
4:4:4 chroma mapping ?



thanx
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post #402 of 417 Old 11-27-2014, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I don't believe that HDCP cares about 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:0. However the limited bandwidth implementations of HDMI 2.0 simply cannot support the data rates necessary for 4K video using 4:4:4 except at 24Hz and 30Hz. Silicon Image (SI) has just started shipping their new Sil 9777 full bandwidth (i.e., 18 Gbps) HDMI 2.0 chip with HDCP 2.2. This should be able to support 4:4:4 for 4K@60, but even then only as long as the bit-depth is only 8-bits per color. At higher bit depths you will be limited to 4:2:2 (at 12-bit depth) or 4:2:0 (at 16-bit depth).
I have to say that HDMI 2.0 is pretty much a total disaster as far as I'm concerned. All I care about is PC (Primarily games) use so the lack of Displayport makes pretty much all of these TVs useless to me. Bring on Displayport 1.3 with Freesync, the TV manufacturers really missed out on an opportunity to kill the monitor market.
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post #403 of 417 Old 11-27-2014, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastuch View Post
I have to say that HDMI 2.0 is pretty much a total disaster as far as I'm concerned. All I care about is PC (Primarily games) use so the lack of Displayport makes pretty much all of these TVs useless to me. Bring on Displayport 1.3 with Freesync, the TV manufacturers really missed out on an opportunity to kill the monitor market.
Panasonic's AX800 and AX900 have DisplayPort 1.2a.
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post #404 of 417 Old 12-02-2014, 07:50 AM
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Hello guys,

I apologize for my English. I'm here today because I discovered the ability of my television to play uncompressed 4:4:4.

I use a computer with GTX 970 video card and hdmi cable amazon 50 centimeters.

How can I be sure 101% that I am playing 4: 4: 4?

I am currently using the cinema mode 1 because it returns very true color and image quality unbeatable.

I noticed in the past on xbox 360 that the mode PC / Gaming sucks. (GTA V)

The cause was the xbox or was the PC mode?
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post #405 of 417 Old 12-02-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Marco Magnaterra View Post
Hello guys,

I apologize for my English. I'm here today because I discovered the ability of my television to play uncompressed 4:4:4.

I use a computer with GTX 970 video card and hdmi cable amazon 50 centimeters.

How can I be sure 101% that I am playing 4: 4: 4?

I am currently using the cinema mode 1 because it returns very true color and image quality unbeatable.

I noticed in the past on xbox 360 that the mode PC / Gaming sucks. (GTA V)

The cause was the xbox or was the PC mode?
excuse me, I forgot to tell you the model of television.

Sony KDL42W653

hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm
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post #406 of 417 Old 12-02-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Magnaterra View Post
How can I be sure 101% that I am playing 4: 4: 4?
It's very simple.

Download an image from this post:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...99#post1640299

Open and view the downloaded image in MSpaint.

If you can see the 4:4:4 much better in MSpaint than the 4:2:2, then you have full 4:4:4 chroma.
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post #407 of 417 Old 12-02-2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by samih22 View Post
Hi guys ,

I was about to purchase the Sharp AQUOS LC-70UD27U , until i saw all this stuff about 4:4:4 Chroma , that i had no idea about , and this really matters to me as I have my PC hooked to my TV for watching movies , series and gaming. and I plan on gaming @4k60hz aswell. ( yes my PC is super beefy )

I thought before buying the LC-70UD27U , to ask sharp via facebook first and I received this answer :

"We apologize for the delay. The Sharp AQUOS LC-70UD27U supports 4K@60Hz but 4:4:4 chroma sub-sampling is only available via analog RGB video."

I dont get it entirely ,what do they mean by "via analog RGB video" ? Are they talking about those colored old cables ? is this a good or a bad thing ? can someone please explain ? thx
Analog RGB can be the component Red/Green/Blue or the VGA cable, but what we really want is HDMI.

The Sharp AQUOS LC-70UD27U does support 4K@60Hz 4:4:4 full chroma subsampling on HDMI 3. This is also stated in the manual, but it does not state the required source. Yes, I have received that response from Sharp before about 'analog RGB video' also, so I have inquired with a couple Sharp reps to confirm on the required source in order for HDMI 3 to run in 4:4:4 mode successfully. I also sent one screenshots of three 4:4:4 tests I performed just over the weekend. I will follow up once I receive the replies back from the Sharp reps.

Update on 12/2/2014 9:53PM CST: Sharp has responded back to me just now and has admitted they were given erroneous information, and that we should ignore anything mentioning 'analog RGB video'.

Therefore, any 4:4:4 source going into HDMI 3 will also display at 4:4:4, and that includes HDMI from PC. I just picked up a GTX980 and will be running the three full chroma subsampling tests soon!

The picture, resolution, and quality simply looks amazing at 3840x2160! There's no need to have two monitors for productivity anymore as I feel so spoiled with all this free desktop space!

Last edited by wadalove; 12-03-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Sharp Corrects their response on 4:4:4 support
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post #408 of 417 Old 12-03-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by maxl View Post
This is strange - 4:4:4 does not even apply to analog RGB video, because the video is analog. Is there even a way to send 4K analog video?
I found it very strange too. It's good news that Sharp admitted their mistake of providing erroneous information and that an HDMI 4:4:4 source (or any 4:4:4 source) going into the HDMI 3 4:4:4 port is supported!
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post #409 of 417 Old 12-03-2014, 01:52 PM
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Again, VGA is true RGB analog video and therefore supports 4:4:4.
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post #410 of 417 Old 12-04-2014, 07:05 PM
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Does anyone have a picture of any game on 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2?

I understand all the complain on 4k@60hz and chroma subsampling but is that noticeable while playing?
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post #411 of 417 Old Today, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggav View Post
Does anyone have a picture of any game on 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2?

I understand all the complain on 4k@60hz and chroma subsampling but is that noticeable while playing?
In games and Blu ray, no, it is not. 420 is indistinquishable from 444. In fact, 420 has an advantage over 444 in that all the picture quality controls are disabled and grayed out if you are displaying 444 chroma, but they are available if 420. This isn't important in games, but it's huge in blu ray which needs Frame interpolation to run smoothly judder free.
Of course desktop suffers greatly if subsampled.
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Anyone here have first hand knowledge of an AVR that passes 4K/60Hz at 444 chroma?
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post #413 of 417 Old Today, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastuch View Post
I have to say that HDMI 2.0 is pretty much a total disaster as far as I'm concerned. All I care about is PC (Primarily games) use so the lack of Displayport makes pretty much all of these TVs useless to me. Bring on Displayport 1.3 with Freesync, the TV manufacturers really missed out on an opportunity to kill the monitor market.
HDMI has always been a total disaster compared to DisplayPort. HDMI 1.4 was a fiasco too. It couldn't push 1080p 3D at framerates higher than 24 Hz. It couldn't handle 1080p 2D at refresh rates higher than 60 Hz.

That stupid standard has been crippling televisions for ages. I remember being pissed off it was impossible to find a 3D TV that could display 1080p 3D at 60 Hz, effectively locking me out of playing PC games in 3D, because who the hell wants to play a PC game at 720p or a framerate lower than 60 FPS? And a monitor? Really? I'm not an ant so I have no desire to crouch over a desk squinting into a tiny little screen like I'm impoverished. I don't think there ever was a single 3D TV released that had a DisplayPort, so your only options for 1080p 3D gaming @ 60 FPS or higher was to buy a stupid tiny little monitor.

The only reason HDMI keeps winning over DisplayPort is because of a conspiracy pact among display manufacturers and Hollywood to push this inferior standard because it allows them to squeeze royalty fees out of everyone and line their pockets with licensing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
In games and Blu ray, no, it is not. 420 is indistinquishable from 444. In fact, 420 has an advantage over 444 in that all the picture quality controls are disabled and grayed out if you are displaying 444 chroma, but they are available if 420. This isn't important in games, but it's huge in blu ray which needs Frame interpolation to run smoothly judder free.
Of course desktop suffers greatly if subsampled.
Why are you using your TV's frame interpolation when you can just use Smooth Video Project instead?
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post #414 of 417 Old Today, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
In games and Blu ray, no, it is not. 420 is indistinquishable from 444.
I've read some things about aliasing being worse on 4:2:0...but no confirmation.
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post #415 of 417 Old Today, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigglywaffles View Post



Why are you using your TV's frame interpolation when you can just use Smooth Video Project instead?
SVP doesn't work with Stereoscopic Player or any mainstream Blu Ray player such as powerDVD .
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I have a Samsung UE55HU7200 and it only seems to output 4:4:4 in 1080p60hz with PC/DVI-PC mode. Getting 4:2:2 (or maybe even 4:2:0) at every other frequency (24/25/30), also seems to disable PC mode even though the PC label remains on the input. Contacted Samsung as this is a major issue for me. Using MadVR to output from PC so I essentially have the choice of judder and decent upscaling (60hz) or no judder but picture improvements (24hz)

Manual says it should output 2160p 4:4:4 @ 24/25/30/60 so the fact it doesn't at 1080p is baffling.

PC is a 2nd Gen i5, Intel HD 3000.
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post #417 of 417 Old Today, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post
Anyone here have first hand knowledge of an AVR that passes 4K/60Hz at 444 chroma?
All the 2014 Denon's can pass 4K 60Hz 4:4:4.
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