Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 16 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 456 Old 05-29-2015, 08:30 AM
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If you think a 1080p TV showing a UHD Bluray is going to be sharper, you are seriously deluding yourself.

It is in fact you who has no idea how the eye works.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...n/rodcone.html

"Current understanding is that the 6 to 7 million cones can be divided into "red" cones (64%), "green" cones (32%), and "blue" cones (2%) based on measured response curves. They provide the eye's color sensitivity. The green and red cones are concentrated in the fovea centralis . The "blue" cones have the highest sensitivity and are mostly found outside the fovea, leading to some distinctions in the eye's blue perception."

"The rods are the most numerous of the photoreceptors, some 120 million, and are the more sensitive than the cones. However, they are not sensitive to color. They are responsible for our dark-adapted, or scotopic, vision. The rods are incredibly efficient photoreceptors. More than one thousand times as sensitive as the cones, they can reportedly be triggered by individual photons under optimal conditions."

So, 7 million Cones = color sensitive vs 120 million Rods.

There are SEVENTEEN TIMES the number of luma-sensitive receptors than chroma-sensitive ones. And EACH rod is in itself FAR more sensitive to light than each cone is. Do the math.

This is why chroma subsampling works well and is based on sound science.

444 is foolish for anything except windows desktop.

Increasing the luma resolution from 1080p to 2160p is going to increase perceptual detail FAR more than increasing chroma resolution from 540p to 1080p.

I'm not going to debate this further, the science is not on your side. The industry is not on your side. Facts are not on your side, and neither is the marketplace for televisions, or the games industry.

The games industry is going to embrace HDR and wide color in a major way in the coming years, and they will have to do it through HDMI 2.0 since the chance of most TVs getting DisplayPort 1.3 is very low. And doing HDR through HDMI 2.0 is going to require dropping to 422 chroma subsampling to allow 12 bits to fit into 18gbps. That is just a fact. Yes, it would have very slightly better quality at 444, 12-bits, but you are going to have to choose.

You're entitled to play games forever on an 8 bit 1080p TV. Meanwhile, people are going to be jumping on HDR and wanting to take advantage of all the resolution UHD has to offer as well. And that means chroma subsampling.

HDR boosts sharpness in a major way for the EXACT same reason as above, because it takes advantage of not only the greater dynamic range of our rods, but the resolution and sensitivity advantage we have in luma detail due to the fact that we have 17 times as many of them.

Say it with me. 17 times more rods than cones. Let the truth sink in. Science. 'Nuff said.

Last edited by RLBURNSIDE; 05-29-2015 at 08:38 AM.
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post #452 of 456 Old 05-29-2015, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
If you think a 1080p TV showing a UHD Bluray is going to be sharper, you are seriously deluding yourself.

It is in fact you who has no idea how the eye works.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...n/rodcone.html

"Current understanding is that the 6 to 7 million cones can be divided into "red" cones (64%), "green" cones (32%), and "blue" cones (2%) based on measured response curves. They provide the eye's color sensitivity. The green and red cones are concentrated in the fovea centralis . The "blue" cones have the highest sensitivity and are mostly found outside the fovea, leading to some distinctions in the eye's blue perception."

"The rods are the most numerous of the photoreceptors, some 120 million, and are the more sensitive than the cones. However, they are not sensitive to color. They are responsible for our dark-adapted, or scotopic, vision. The rods are incredibly efficient photoreceptors. More than one thousand times as sensitive as the cones, they can reportedly be triggered by individual photons under optimal conditions."

So, 7 million Cones = color sensitive vs 120 million Rods.

There are SEVENTEEN TIMES the number of luma-sensitive receptors than chroma-sensitive ones. And EACH rod is in itself FAR more sensitive to light than each cone is. Do the math.

This is why chroma subsampling works well and is based on sound science.

444 is foolish for anything except windows desktop.

Increasing the luma resolution from 1080p to 2160p is going to increase perceptual detail FAR more than increasing chroma resolution from 540p to 1080p.

I'm not going to debate this further, the science is not on your side. The industry is not on your side. Facts are not on your side, and neither is the marketplace for televisions, or the games industry.

The games industry is going to embrace HDR and wide color in a major way in the coming years, and they will have to do it through HDMI 2.0 since the chance of most TVs getting DisplayPort 1.3 is very low. And doing HDR through HDMI 2.0 is going to require dropping to 422 chroma subsampling to allow 12 bits to fit into 18gbps. That is just a fact. Yes, it would have very slightly better quality at 444, 12-bits, but you are going to have to choose.

You're entitled to play games forever on an 8 bit 1080p TV. Meanwhile, people are going to be jumping on HDR and wanting to take advantage of all the resolution UHD has to offer as well. And that means chroma subsampling.

HDR boosts sharpness in a major way for the EXACT same reason as above, because it takes advantage of not only the greater dynamic range of our rods, but the resolution and sensitivity advantage we have in luma detail due to the fact that we have 17 times as many of them.

Say it with me. 17 times more rods than cones. Let the truth sink in. Science. 'Nuff said.
I don't think you're understanding me, how many times do I have to repeat myself.

When you move closer to an object, the size increases.
It takes more space in your vision.
Our 20/20 vision is limited to a certain amount of space
It just so happens the 1080p-1440p spectrum fits perfectly in that space
4k is going outside the boundaries of our vision, and since it is flat and none of the content is properly adjusting the field of view.
The overall resolution is much lower, because the once 1080p image is now stretching beyond the ideal view.


So what happens? Playing video games with collectibles becomes difficult, because your overall vision is worse, you'll tend to miss a lot of details that you could see plainly before.

But wait there's more to it.

4k content is unlikely going to change at all, because if they change the angle it is effectively changing the aspect ratio making it incompatible with older displays which shortens the market.
The only hope to fix this issue is Oculus Rift, because it requires extensive field of view changes; once this implemented games will provide a field of view option which will make the 4k experience significantly better that blows 1080p out of the water.



Does this make sense?


You can't compare chroma subsampling on videos to videogames, chroma subsampling is much more noticable in rendered graphics particularly in anti aliasing; the difference isn't that noticeable at 4k because of the field of view issues, your own mind is blurring the differences in the peripheral vision.
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post #453 of 456 Old 05-29-2015, 11:26 AM
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I would just buy cards with the power vs dollar ratio, like the 970's give you the most graphic power for your money; much more than the other cards have in the past.
But then you have to deal with the silly 3.5/0.5GB memory partition thing.
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post #454 of 456 Old 05-29-2015, 06:19 PM
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But then you have to deal with the silly 3.5/0.5GB memory partition thing.
Even then, it is still the best card you can gt with your money right now. It has the highest dollar for power ratio, I have 2 of them and have been very satisfied with it.
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post #455 of 456 Old 05-29-2015, 08:01 PM
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Ehhh, SLI 970s for 4k is one of the main cases where the 3.5/0.5GB partition silliness can cause issues, so personally I'd still be very hesitant with that set-up for such a use-case.
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post #456 of 456 Unread Today, 01:24 PM
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Ehhh, SLI 970s for 4k is one of the main cases where the 3.5/0.5GB partition silliness can cause issues, so personally I'd still be very hesitant with that set-up for such a use-case.
Never really had much of a problem, just make sure you're not using the last 500mb of memory. SLI isn't even using the full potential of memory anyway. When Direct X 12 comes out to mainstream, it will use the memory of both cards instead of just duplicating the load. Considering most games can run with less than 4GB of memory even at 4k on medium-high settings, this won't be an issue at all.
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