Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 540 Old 01-18-2016, 12:08 PM
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Well I wondered doing dual display with same video card which will be a gtx 970. One using display port and telling it my old receiver than can't handle 4k as another. And having it set in windows the audio set to hdmi out. Now what really screws me if I end up with a bigger tv instead of the Seki 40 inch that has display port tvs dont have display port at all so then I'd be screwed totally audio wise, no video cards really have dual hdmi outs on them.

And I swear I remember reading once long time ago hdmi can't send signal with just audio, it must by spec send some video signal with it or it wont work. This whole thing is retarded, forcing entire upgrade of everything other wise some part of it gets screwed up quality wise. Beyond stupid.

I would probably be ok with the seki 40 inch but i fell thats its almost to small. I been using a 42 incher for gee 6 yrs now or more. I game its my HTPC I watch and do EVERYTHING via the pc no matter what it is. Music , movies , tv and games.

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post #512 of 540 Old 01-18-2016, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
I don't think using a DisplayPort and HDMI from a single GPU will work because even DisplayPort can support audio, and I don't think the GPU will know to output audio only over the HDMI (this is required if you don't want to be limited to what the TV accepts).
You actually can, and this is exactly what I'm doing. I have an older non-4K receiver, a 4K TV, and an HTPC with a GTX 960. I'm running an HDMI-to-HDMI cable from the GTX 960 directly into the TV for video, and a DisplayPort-to-HDMI cable from the GTX 960 directly into the receiver for audio. In the Nvidia control panel I set the HMDI sound output to the TV to "Turn off". In the Windows sound devices manager I set the DisplayPort-to-HDMI sound output to the receiver as the default. That way I get native 4K video to the TV and all the HD audio formats bit-streamed to the receiver.


*All this may or may not work with Intel integrated video*

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post #513 of 540 Old 01-18-2016, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv00 View Post
Well I wondered doing dual display with same video card which will be a gtx 970. One using display port and telling it my old receiver than can't handle 4k as another. And having it set in windows the audio set to hdmi out. Now what really screws me if I end up with a bigger tv instead of the Seki 40 inch that has display port tvs dont have display port at all so then I'd be screwed totally audio wise, no video cards really have dual hdmi outs on them.

And I swear I remember reading once long time ago hdmi can't send signal with just audio, it must by spec send some video signal with it or it wont work. This whole thing is retarded, forcing entire upgrade of everything other wise some part of it gets screwed up quality wise. Beyond stupid.

I would probably be ok with the seki 40 inch but i fell thats its almost to small. I been using a 42 incher for gee 6 yrs now or more. I game its my HTPC I watch and do EVERYTHING via the pc no matter what it is. Music , movies , tv and games.
See my post right above this one...

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post #514 of 540 Old 01-19-2016, 09:16 AM
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@VBB , this is correct and should work flawlessly!
@hdtv00 , how far are you sitting from the set? 40" is great for a computer monitor but might be a bit (more than just a bit actually) small for a living room set-up.
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post #515 of 540 Old 01-19-2016, 09:20 AM
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Well I have it in my living room but its only say 3 ft from me. I wanted it bigger so when I sit across room on the couch maybe. But with it being 2 inches smaller than current display and 4k so basically 4 times smaller text and icons gee, that seems crazy.

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post #516 of 540 Old 01-20-2016, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
I wound up getting a Vizio M55. I know it's only 4:2:2 but again I am not using this screen for anything but watching movies. Should get here Thursday. Hopefully it will turn things up. We are in Google Fiber territory too so hopefully that will enable more high res content.

How do you like it so far? That's a really nice TV for sure and one I had considered. Also, I hear square trade offers good warranty on the cheap for TV's. A consideration for that brand of TV as they have great panels, but suffer from build quality for the motherboard.

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post #517 of 540 Old 02-22-2016, 08:58 AM
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For Dolby Vision, will 4K/60 and 4:4:4 full color resolution be enough for HDMI ports on an amp? Will we need amps to support more?
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post #518 of 540 Old 02-22-2016, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post
For Dolby Vision, will 4K/60 and 4:4:4 full color resolution be enough for HDMI ports on an amp? Will we need amps to support more?
Dolby Vision/HDR requires HDMI 2.0a to handle the metadata. If the HDMI port supports 4K/60 and 4:4:4, then it's full-bandwidth (18Gbps) HDMI 2.0. Most AVR's and TV's with these types of 2.0 ports can be upgraded to HDMI 2.0a via a firmware upgrade if/when the manufacturer provides it.
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post #519 of 540 Old 02-22-2016, 10:09 PM
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Thanks!! Looking at the denon 6/7200x. Will verify 2.0 aye


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post #520 of 540 Old 02-24-2016, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Random thing I just discovered regarding the "HDMI video + HDMI audio = 4:2:0 chroma" issue with GPUs - if you make a custom resolution that uses a non-standard TV resolution, you can get 4:4:4 chroma.

I was getting 4:2:0 with my E-350 APU at 1920:1080 regardless of refresh rate and even when it was set to RGB 4:4:4 in the drivers, but as soon as I made a custom resolution of 1920x1079 I was able to actually get true 4:4:4 displayed.

(note that a few games actually have a noticeable reduction in performance if your resolution isn't a multiple of 8, so 1920x1072 may be safer).
Great finding I'll try it out! Although instead of changing the resolution you can try to change the refresh rate just a bit if you can (e.g. from 24.000 -> 24.001).
Unfortunately my setup (see my signature) doesn't support refresh rate changes (stupid intel drivers).
What's your TV?

I can't send 4:4:4 to my 55LD650. I have tried both HDMI1 (DVI) and HDMI2 input, with and without having my Yamaha receiver in the chain.
Now, I'm using HDMI1 input with my laptop, and if I set the label of it to PC AND set the refresh rate to 60 Hz then I'll get somehow different result but still far from 4:4:4. (Otherwise I use the TV with different refresh rates with the help of madVR according to the content that is played.
I have seen somebody stated that they could get it with the ld450 series. The only question is: how?

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post #521 of 540 Old 02-24-2016, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Although instead of changing the resolution you can try to change the refresh rate just a bit if you can (e.g. from 24.000 -> 24.001).
This doesn't work, I tried it back when I originally found out about this resolution trick.

...or at least it didn't work for my AMD E-350 APU.

For reference, my TV (Toshiba 39L1350U) is able to accept weird refresh rates like 63Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Unfortunately my setup (see my signature) doesn't support refresh rate changes (stupid intel drivers).
Actually, if you have only an Intel GPU you can totally set the refresh rate via custom resolutions - that issue is caused by Intel and Nvidia switchable graphics (no idea about Intel and AMD switchable graphics).

Last edited by NintendoManiac64; 02-24-2016 at 12:15 PM.
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post #522 of 540 Old 02-25-2016, 05:05 AM
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Yesterday I ruled out Yamaha and my laptop: I borrowed a 24" FullHD LCD multimedia monitor with HDMI input from a friend of mine. I switched my TV with it at the end of the chain and I could see 4:4:4 without problem.
So that means my TV is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
This doesn't work, I tried it back when I originally found out about this resolution trick. ...or at least it didn't work for my AMD E-350 APU.
For reference, my TV (Toshiba 39L1350U) is able to accept weird refresh rates like 63Hz.

Actually, if you have only an Intel GPU you can totally set the refresh rate via custom resolutions - that issue is caused by Intel and Nvidia switchable graphics (no idea about Intel and AMD switchable graphics).
Unfortunately this is an optimus system (iGPU + nvidia). I couldn't set either different resolution or refresh rate with these ****ty intel drivers/helper app.
But I'm not sure about the "only" part: I just joined to couple of really angry people here:
https://communities.intel.com/thread...rt=45&tstart=0
https://communities.intel.com/thread...rt=75&tstart=0

So, if anybody still here with an LG xxLD450 who managed to to this, please don't hide that info! And does it also work with different refresh rates not just 60?

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post #523 of 540 Old 02-27-2016, 10:58 AM
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Having some issues and hope you all can help.

Picked up the Sony XBR55X810C yesterday, and so far am pretty happy except when trying to get 4:4:4 4k 60hz from my PC.

I enabled the Advanced HDMI in the TV settings and set the picture mode to Gaming. I am on the latest TV firmware.

I have tried both the Monoprice Cabernet cable 25' and ultra slim 6' cable, both rated at 18Gbps.

Both do 4k at 4:2:0 @ 60hz and it looks great.

However, the cabernet will display at 4:4:2 and 4:4:4 @60 but with red pixels / distortion flickering on the screen.

The TV won't even get a signal at either with the slim cable.

Please help, do I have a defective unit? Are the cables insufficient? Is there something else I am missing?

Thanks!
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post #524 of 540 Old 02-27-2016, 12:13 PM
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So I'm a big giant idiot who didn't read the beginning of this thread :/

DVI-HDMI cable is working now, with HDMI going to Yamaha Aventura receiver for audio. Not exactly IDEAL but hey it's working.

Questions now:

1. Will this effect GPU performance in games now? Technically it is still sending both audio and video signals to the receiver correct?

2. How dumb am I for not reading the first post I mean really?

3. I see there are some other TVs listed that actually do support audio + 4k rgb@60hz, do you think this is something that could be possibly added in the future via firmware update? Or possibly fixed with an HDMI cable with a higher data throughput?
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post #525 of 540 Old 02-29-2016, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoman00 View Post
DVI-HDMI cable is working now, with HDMI going to Yamaha Aventura receiver for audio. Not exactly IDEAL but hey it's working.

Questions now:

1. Will this effect GPU performance in games now? Technically it is still sending both audio and video signals to the receiver correct?
So how doeas it work now? Do you have 2 output ports? 1 HDMI and 1 DVI?
If that's the case and if it's working then it shouldn't cause any performance bottleneck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoman00 View Post
2. How dumb am I for not reading the first post I mean really?
No worries, I'm pretty sure that it happened to all of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoman00 View Post
3. I see there are some other TVs listed that actually do support audio + 4k rgb@60hz, do you think this is something that could be possibly added in the future via firmware update? Or possibly fixed with an HDMI cable with a higher data throughput?
I think it could solve it, but I don't think it will happen.

In the meantime I've tried out a custom refresh rate and custom resolution on my laptop using Ubuntu (instead of Windows). Neither of them solved my problem.

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post #526 of 540 Old 05-24-2016, 08:54 AM
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Hello there, I would like someone to explain this situation.

I have this TV --> Samsung ue32eh5000, that tv has support for 4:4:4 / chroma subsampling, source : htttp : // ww. hdtvtest.co. uk/news/ samsung-ue32eh5000-ue40eh5000-201212192466. htm
It says : "Full 4:4:4 reproduction (PC) - Yes, with input label set to [PC]"

So I did that, renamed my HDMI input label to "PC" while having my computer connected via HDMI-HDMI cable.

Did the Belle-Nuit test and all the red lines were clear and not fuzzy. But when I tried renaming my HDMI input label to "TV" or anything else, the result was the same. Does this mean that 4:4:4 chroma subsampling is permanently enabled on my TV ?
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post #527 of 540 Old 05-24-2016, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroCodile20 View Post
Does this mean that 4:4:4 chroma subsampling is permanently enabled on my TV ?
Possibly; my own Toshiba 39L1350U runs at 4:4:4 chroma no matter what the settings are set to.

BTW, I recommend using this chroma test pattern instead and viewing it via MS Paint:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...99#post1640299
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post #528 of 540 Old 05-26-2016, 06:00 AM
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Okay, I opened the updated pattern in MS paint and this is what I got at 100% (default) zoom, picture below.

Shouldn`t both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 be visible, like in the example in that post ? The 4:2:2 number is visible only veery slightly, you cant see it in the photo.

If I view the same picture in Win. photo viewer, I get slightly better results, second picture below.
I also tried opening the Old Pattern in MS paint, and I get perfectly visible 4:2:2 and 4:4:4.
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post #529 of 540 Old 05-26-2016, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroCodile20 View Post
Shouldn`t both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 be visible, like in the example in that post ? The 4:2:2 number is visible only veery slightly, you cant see it in the photo.
Somebody didn't look at the example photos in my link, did they?

The first of the two images is the correct result for 4:4:4 chroma. The way the image is designed is that it essentially tells you what your current chroma is - full, or reduced, so you should never see both (unless you're on a CRT )
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post #530 of 540 Old 06-16-2016, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Possibly; my own Toshiba 39L1350U runs at 4:4:4 chroma no matter what the settings are set to.
Lucky you!

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post #531 of 540 Old 06-18-2016, 05:48 AM
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I recently got a Vizio E43U-D2 to use as a PC monitor. One of the reasons I got it was that it supports 4:4:4. (http://www.vizio.com/e43ud2.html)

"
HDMI Inputs

HDMI Ports4 (3 bottom / 1 side)
VersionPort 1 supports: v2.0; Port 2-4 supports: v1.4
HDMI 1 Tech Spec600MHz pixel clock rate:
2160p@60fps, 4:4:4, 8-bit
2160p@60fps, 4:2:2, 12-bit
2160p@60fps, 4:2:0, 12-bit
HDMI 2-4 Tech Specs340MHz pixel clock rate:
2160@60fps 4:2:0 8 bit
"
Rtings also says the set supports 4:4:4, but they comment that the text isn't as clear as other sets. (http://ca.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/e-series-4k-2016)

My video card is an Nvidia GTX 950, using HDMI 2. So far, outside of some HDMI handshake issues if the PC screen resolution is changed, its been a great PC monitor. Text looks very good to myself and others.

However, it fails 2 different 4:4:4 test images, screen pictures attached.

I opened a support case with Vizio, and got a call back from a second lever rep. He said that Vizio is aware of this and mentioned AVS Forum by name. Their product engineering group said that 4:4:4 capability cannot be tested with those images, and that a PC program is needed. He also said that Vizio would address it both on AVS Forum and on their support site at some future date.

I'm pretty new to this issue, and would appreciate comments.
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post #532 of 540 Old 06-18-2016, 11:44 AM
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Just found this thread
4K UHD TV 4:4:4 60Hz Capable Master List

Post 52:
"
All Vizio 4K TVs are 4:4:4 capable. The test patterns everyone has been using test for 1:1 pixel mapping and not 4:4:4. The Vizio 4K TVs scale the pixels ever so slightly and that causes them to fail the test patterns that everyone is using. However, they are certainly 4:4:4 which is far more important than the 1:1 pixel mapping.

A lot of people have been saying that 4:4:4 isn't important because the TVs that the reviews said weren't 4:4:4 capable still looked identical to the other TVs for desktop use. The only thing they fail at was showing the test pattern. However, the test pattern does not tell you if the TV is 4:4:4 or not. It just tells you if it is 1:1 pixel mapped.

Don't take my word for it. Go try it yourself. The new Nvidia drivers allow you to select 4:4:4, 4:2:2, and 4:2:0. Just have a look at what the text on the screen looks like when you switch between those settings. You will see that at 4:4:4 everything looks great even on the TVs that are said to only be 4:2:2. However, once you actually force 4:2:2 mode on those TVs you will see the color bleed that the 4:2:2 and to a greater extent 4:2:0 compression causes.

These pictures are all from a Vizio M80-C3. It is 100% 4:4:4 capable for 1080p @ 60 FPS, 1080p @ 120 FPS, 4K/UHD @ 24 FPS, 4K/UHD @ 30 FPS, and 4K/UHD @ 60 FPS. The reviews are simply testing for it incorrectly.
"
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post #533 of 540 Old 06-18-2016, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
Just found this thread
4K UHD TV 4:4:4 60Hz Capable Master List

Post 52:
"
All Vizio 4K TVs are 4:4:4 capable. The test patterns everyone has been using test for 1:1 pixel mapping and not 4:4:4. The Vizio 4K TVs scale the pixels ever so slightly and that causes them to fail the test patterns that everyone is using. However, they are certainly 4:4:4 which is far more important than the 1:1 pixel mapping.

A lot of people have been saying that 4:4:4 isn't important because the TVs that the reviews said weren't 4:4:4 capable still looked identical to the other TVs for desktop use. The only thing they fail at was showing the test pattern. However, the test pattern does not tell you if the TV is 4:4:4 or not. It just tells you if it is 1:1 pixel mapped.

Don't take my word for it. Go try it yourself. The new Nvidia drivers allow you to select 4:4:4, 4:2:2, and 4:2:0. Just have a look at what the text on the screen looks like when you switch between those settings. You will see that at 4:4:4 everything looks great even on the TVs that are said to only be 4:2:2. However, once you actually force 4:2:2 mode on those TVs you will see the color bleed that the 4:2:2 and to a greater extent 4:2:0 compression causes.

These pictures are all from a Vizio M80-C3. It is 100% 4:4:4 capable for 1080p @ 60 FPS, 1080p @ 120 FPS, 4K/UHD @ 24 FPS, 4K/UHD @ 30 FPS, and 4K/UHD @ 60 FPS. The reviews are simply testing for it incorrectly.
"
Dave, that post is outdated. We have since come to the conclusion that Vizio TVs (going back to at least the 2014 P-series) simply cannot do a proper 4:4:4, no matter what. The EDID says they're capable, so you get it as an option in your video card driver, but the output always ends up being 4:2:2. Slightly blurrier than 4:4:4. That's what you're seeing with the test patterns. Black on white text won't look any worse, but certain other combinations will. Overall, this is not a big deal. It would be nice to have an explanation as to why the Vizios just aren't capable, though. Even the brand new P-series with its updated HDMI chips and newer panel can't do it.
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post #534 of 540 Old 06-18-2016, 12:48 PM
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However, they are certainly 4:4:4 which is far more important than the 1:1 pixel mapping.
I must take beef with this.

In my experience, it's much more important to have 1:1 pixel mapping than 4:4:4 for optimal text clarity in many PC GUIs; this is why both Apple and Microsoft do plain old 200% nearest neighbor for software that is not hi-dpi aware - to preserve the pixel mapping.
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post #535 of 540 Old 06-19-2016, 09:12 AM
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Dave, that post is outdated. We have since come to the conclusion that Vizio TVs (going back to at least the 2014 P-series) simply cannot do a proper 4:4:4, no matter what. The EDID says they're capable, so you get it as an option in your video card driver, but the output always ends up being 4:2:2. Slightly blurrier than 4:4:4. That's what you're seeing with the test patterns. Black on white text won't look any worse, but certain other combinations will. Overall, this is not a big deal. It would be nice to have an explanation as to why the Vizios just aren't capable, though. Even the brand new P-series with its updated HDMI chips and newer panel can't do it.
Yeah, something strange is going on. I got the full screen, 1 pixel width test image from Post 6 of:
4K UHD TV 4:4:4 60Hz Capable Master List

I've settled on this pattern as is is full resolution, pixel for pixel.

In the horizontal line, every other blue pixel line is about 1/2 to 1/3 as bright as next blue pixel line, no problem with the vertical lines.

End of the story. Returned Vizio, got 40" Samsung KU6300. passes every image test, true pixel by pixel reproduction. Text is maybe 10% better. There was a text reproduction meltdown in Excel that I never saw before, present with the Vizio, not present with Samsung.

EDIT - after a week with the Samsung, I've noticed far less eye strain when using it as a monitor.

Special thanks to Luke M, who started me on this learning experience.

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post #536 of 540 Old 07-31-2016, 05:29 PM
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I'd just like to quickly confirm that the custom resolution trick that I mentioned previously on AMD GPUs also works on Nvidia GPUs.

Simply make a custom resolution in CRU - Custom Resolution Utility (it must be via CRU and not the Nvidia drivers) of something like 1920x1079 or, if you want mod16, 1920x1072 and set "Custom extension block". From there, under "Data blocks", click 'Add', select "Audio formats" and 'Add' again; in the next window, for best compatibility select at least LPCM, 2 (stereo), 48.0 kHz, 16-bit (note that 24-bit is better in every way but isn't always compatible).

After all that click OK on all of the windows, restart your PC, and now when you select your custom resolution you should have both 4:4:4 chroma and digital audio.
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post #537 of 540 Old 08-08-2016, 10:20 AM
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In my experience, it's much more important to have 1:1 pixel mapping than 4:4:4 for optimal text clarity in many PC GUIs...
Both are important. That statement above was a joke
I'm getting pissed off about my TV that it can't do 4:4:4 (although it can do 1:1 pixel mapping). This problem can be even visible with movies and TV shows. (I can't try out your possible fix until "dear" intel will fix the 5 years ago reported bug in their drivers https://communities.intel.com/thread...t=105&tstart=0)
One thing for sure, my next TV has to provide both!
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I not sure if the first post address this scenario, but I use PC with a 980 TI video card on HDTV for PC gaming and watch/stream movies on the PC but I do not use it for text, art, browsing or desktop use of any kind. but I am deciding between Samsung KS8000 vs Vizio P55-C1. Both are similar in many features except this. The Samsung supports 1080p @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 and the Vizio supports 1080p @ 120Hz. Which of these features are better for PC gaming with a GTX 980 ti?

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post #539 of 540 Old Today, 08:10 PM
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I am deciding between Samsung KS8000 vs Vizio P55-C1
I've no opinion regarding the two TVs, but do you actually know for a fact if the Vizio is unable to do 4:4:4 chroma at 1080p 120Hz? I mean, it's certainly not an HDMI bandwidth issue since even HDMI 1.4 should have just enough bandwidth (that is, HDMI 1.4 can do 2160p 30Hz 4:4:4).
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post #540 of 540 Old Today, 08:43 PM
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I've no opinion regarding the two TVs, but do you actually know for a fact if the Vizio is unable to do 4:4:4 chroma at 1080p 120Hz? I mean, it's certainly not an HDMI bandwidth issue since even HDMI 1.4 should have just enough bandwidth (that is, HDMI 1.4 can do 2160p 30Hz 4:4:4).
no I do not know for sure. tho from what i have skimmed around I do not think so.

my gfx card has hdmi 2.0, it might even come or already has a driver update to support HDMI 2.0a (?)

5.1 small-room size: 800 ft³+ 54 ft³ corner door space
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