Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #541 of 575 Old 09-09-2016, 10:31 PM
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Not sure if this belongs here, but I didnt find an answer in the htpc forum. If you have an htpc just for video (blu ray, ect...) and you connect to a 4k tv should you set it to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0? 4:4:4 might not be an option.
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post #542 of 575 Old 09-09-2016, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post
Not sure if this belongs here, but I didnt find an answer in the htpc forum. If you have an htpc just for video (blu ray, ect...) and you connect to a 4k tv should you set it to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0? 4:4:4 might not be an option.
Is your PC doing the upscaling? If so, 4:2:2 is better.

Are you changing your output resolution to match the video's resolution (like switching to 1280x720 for a 720p video)? If so, then 4:2:0 is theoretically better.


Don't forget that, due to bandwidth limitations, HDMI 2.0 requires you to use either 30Hz* or 8bit in order to have 4k with 4:4:4 chroma.

*theoretically HDMI 2.0 could handle 4k 10bit 4:4:4 @ 52Hz or 4k 12bit 4:4:4 @ 45Hz; someone should totally try that out via custom resolutions.

Last edited by NintendoManiac64; 09-09-2016 at 10:54 PM.
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post #543 of 575 Old 09-20-2016, 03:17 PM
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I'm looking at buying the Samsung UN40KU6300 for a pc monitor. Not for gaming, just desktop use. Right now, I'm using integrated graphics on a skylake i5. The motherboard claims both HDMI 2 and DP1.2 outputs.

Is my best option for connecting the monitor just straight HDMI?

TIA
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post #544 of 575 Old 09-20-2016, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by highnoon View Post
I'm looking at buying the Samsung UN40KU6300 for a pc monitor. Not for gaming, just desktop use. Right now, I'm using integrated graphics on a skylake i5. The motherboard claims both HDMI 2 and DP1.2 outputs.

Is my best option for connecting the monitor just straight HDMI?

TIA
Assuming that you can get actual 3840x2160 @ 60Hz 4:4:4, then yeah just use HDMI since that TV doesn't have a DisplayPort input anyway.
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post #545 of 575 Old 01-23-2017, 08:16 AM
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upscale 4k

Hi,
just to clarify things in my mind,
htpc with gtx 1080 and kaby lake, tv lg b6,
planning to watch mainly upscaled 1080p and play game,
should I go only 4:4:4 blindly? Framerate will be limited if I understood correctly? Thanks!
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post #546 of 575 Old 01-24-2017, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Omalta View Post
htpc with gtx 1080 and kaby lake, tv lg b6
Do you already have all of this hardware?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Omalta View Post
should I go only 4:4:4 blindly? Framerate will be limited if I understood correctly? Thanks!
On the B6 OLED, if you use 4:4:4 chroma, your input lag will be considerably worse. If you set the TV to the fastest input lag mode, then it will automatically downsample the chroma to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 (I don't know which; I just know it's not 4:4:4).

The only other thing to note is that 3840x2160 60Hz 4:4:4 is limited to 8bit due to bandwidth constraints. You theoretically might be able to do 3840x2160 50Hz 4:4:4 at 10bit, but I don't even know if the OLEDs TVs can handle that as the US-spec OLED TVs don't seem to support 50Hz input even with a custom resolution so I can't exactly test it out.
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post #547 of 575 Old 01-24-2017, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Do you already have all of this hardware?



On the B6 OLED, if you use 4:4:4 chroma, your input lag will be considerably worse. If you set the TV to the fastest input lag mode, then it will automatically downsample the chroma to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 (I don't know which; I just know it's not 4:4:4).

The only other thing to note is that 3840x2160 60Hz 4:4:4 is limited to 8bit due to bandwidth constraints. You theoretically might be able to do 3840x2160 50Hz 4:4:4 at 10bit, but I don't even know if the OLEDs TVs can handle that as the US-spec OLED TVs don't seem to support 50Hz input even with a custom resolution so I can't exactly test it out.
htpc is done and tv no, i'm still considering whether to invest that amount of money vs a samsung 65ks8000. Thing is that i don't upgrade too often so when i do it, "try" to do it "properly" ^^ ... But yes I read that anyway it does not make much sense to upscale content to 4:4:4 as the information that is not there can't be created out of nowhere...
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post #548 of 575 Old 01-24-2017, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Omalta View Post
htpc is done and tv no, i'm still considering whether to invest that amount of money vs a samsung 65ks8000. Thing is that i don't upgrade too often so when i do it, "try" to do it "properly" ^^
Then I guess I shouldn't mention that you totally shouldn't have bought your PC parts just yet (unless you were impatient! )

Regarding the TV, unless you're allergic to curved, the C6 OLED's input lag is a bit higher but for 4:4:4 the input lag is way better.

It's also worth noting that the 2017 OLED TVs should be available anywhere between February and May, and they supposedly have ~22ms of input lag, and it's also possible that they might support native 120Hz input. Of course, much like the PC advice, if you're impatient, then feel free to ignore this.
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post #549 of 575 Old 01-24-2017, 12:36 AM
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aha I see, and why is that? Pls note that I'm coming from ground zero on the htpc, meaning that I did not upgrade from skylake which is indeed useless apparently.
Indeed impatient I am as I don't have a computer nor a tv anymore in my living room
so waiting another 6 months for a new tv that will cost 2k more on release day in EU is definitely a no. I'd have to wait another year to get them at the current price of the 2016s. And same story for the 2018s would start again... Or maybe go for a cheaper one like ks8000 to do a real upgrade when DDay comes
Regarding the pc, I didn't read that there would be huge upcoming changes in the chips in the coming months. Having an i7, DDR4 and a z270 chipset appeared quite safe to me for a while. What about a high end GPU ?..
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post #550 of 575 Old 01-24-2017, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Omalta View Post
waiting another 6 months for a new tv that will cost 2k more on release day in EU is definitely a no. I'd have to wait another year to get them at the current price of the 2016s. And same story for the 2018s would start again...
What gives you the impression that the 2017 models wouldn't cost similar to what the 2016 models currently cost? I mean, the 2016 models have been priced at their current price-point since early November and maybe even September/October, so it's not like they're done dropping in price.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Omalta View Post
Regarding the pc, I didn't read that there would be huge upcoming changes in the chips in the coming months. Having an i7, DDR4 and a z270 chipset appeared quite safe to me for a while. What about a high end GPU ?..
CPU: AMD Ryzen (launch window is Feburary or March)
GPU: AMD Vega (launch window is March to June)
GPU: Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti (thought to be launching whenever AMD releases Vega)
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post #551 of 575 Old 01-24-2017, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
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What gives you the impression that the 2017 models wouldn't cost similar to what the 2016 models currently cost? I mean, the 2016 models have been priced at their current price-point since early November and maybe even September/October, so it's not like they're done dropping in price.
Precisely, they will be launched at the same price as the 2016 last year if not slighly higher in the internet shops because of the buzz, meaning around 5-8k€ in France, which is imo way too expensive for a TV ^^


Quote:
CPU: AMD Ryzen (launch window is Feburary or March)
GPU: AMD Vega (launch window is March to June)
GPU: Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti (thought to be launching whenever AMD releases Vega)
again, the GTX 1080 Ti is the expected followup to the GTX 1080, coming in at a lower price than the top-end Titan X which is around 1.2k€ in EU so the 1080 ti will sit around 1k. You can get a 1080 around 530€ atm which is twice less so no comparison possible with 1080 ti, it is most likely more powerful but
more expensive.
About AMD, rumors talk May as a release date which is like in half a year ^^
Here's the thing, I get your point, in computer industry (which i know quite well as a 10y programmer), it is indeed always a benefit to wait for the end of time cause for sure you'll get the best hardware possible.
But what is your advice? Should I sit in on the couch watching at the wall for another 6 months and spend 4k€ more on my new setup?
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post #552 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
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But what is your advice? Should I sit in on the couch watching at the wall for another 6 months and spend 4k€ more on my new setup?
My advice is to only ever buy when a new generation product releases (at least within a month or so of that release) unless you're impatient or need to replace a broken item.


However, you don't actually have to buy the new gen product; the main thing is that you would compare the last generation product to the new generation product and then decide which you like better. This is especially useful since the old gen item almost always experiences a price-drop at that point in time.

From there, the new gen product shouldn't be seeing any price-drops for at least a few months (unless a competing product launches) while the old gen product shouldn't be getting many more price-cuts either.


The only exception to this "rule" of mine is when a competitor is going to launch a competing product relatively soon after because this can also lead to price-drops - a key example of this occurring is Geforce 260 & 280 vs the Radeon 4850 & 4870:
https://www.cnet.com/news/nvidia-cut...aphics-boards/

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post #553 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 12:18 AM
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it is true indeed, price drops will be greater at that time.
I think you're right about GPUs, 1080ti might be worth the wait either for 1080 low cost or for highest end purchase but I just bought the
last intel i7 architecture which did not bring much from sky lake but quite a bit from nothing...
About the TV, that is too much of a wait I'd say.
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post #554 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 12:44 AM
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Also, if the official test benches are to be believed, I would be shocked if Intel doesn't cut their prices when Ryzen launches.
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post #555 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 05:31 AM
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Trying to run Game Mode permanently when connected to my PC. I've got a 49KS8000 and it randomly goes from Game Mode to PC Mode automatically whenever I power on my display. Anyone know how to stop it from changing input types?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm fine with 4:2:2 since the text is pretty clear compared to 4:4:4 and would like the lower input lag.

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post #556 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 03:03 PM
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I built an HTPC with a i5-4590, 16GB DDR3, 500GB SSD and 2X 2TB 7200RPM HDD and a 2GHZ GTX 1060 6GB for $450, I just purchased a LG 50UH5530 for $400. I hope this setup works for playing NBA 2K17 and Dirt Rally at 4k 4:4:4 on medium-high.
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*I built an HTPC with a i5-4590, 16GB DDR3, 500GB SSD and 2X 2TB 7200RPM HDD and a 2GHZ GTX 1060 6GB for $450, I just purchased a LG 50UH5530 for $400. I hope this setup works for playing NBA 2K17 and GRID Autosport at 4k 4:4:4 on medium-high.
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post #558 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 05:29 PM
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The Vizio P-series now officially supports 4:4:4 for all resolutions and frame rates according to RTINGS.com. You may have to use the "Computer" profile for it to work on some HDMI inputs but I was able to get it to work with 1080p @ 120 FPS on HDMI 5 with the "Calibrated" input. Honestly, it doesn't make any difference to real world use but at least now it isn't even a concern to anyone.


http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/p-series-2016
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post #559 of 575 Old 01-25-2017, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 52LG60FTW View Post
Trying to run Game Mode permanently when connected to my PC. I've got a 49KS8000 and it randomly goes from Game Mode to PC Mode automatically whenever I power on my display. Anyone know how to stop it from changing input types?
This to me sounds like the HDMI metadata where it can specify what format and/or content is being displayed; some TVs automatically change their label and/or display mode based on this metadata.

The easiest way I know of to disable this "metadata" is to simply use CRU - Custom Resolution Utility and either set it to "no extension block" or "custom extension block" with the default settings (that is, with nothing in it).
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post #560 of 575 Old 03-03-2017, 01:12 AM
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Has anyone here been able to get HDMI UHD 60Hz 4:4:4 to work using a PC with Intel HD graphics 500+?

I've tried with two DP 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 converters:
- onboard, MegaChips MCDP2800 FW 1.61
- external, Club3D CAC-1070 Paradetech PS176

The best I can do is 4:2:2... the colors (red, yellow) are so dull in this mode

Using the HD graphics control panel.. I can't force any settings.
It doesn't even show what it's doing (yet)
https://communities.intel.com/thread/111279 (wish list for future releases)

thanks
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post #561 of 575 Old 03-03-2017, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thuety View Post
Has anyone here been able to get HDMI UHD 60Hz 4:4:4 to work using a PC with Intel HD graphics 500+?

I've tried with two DP 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 converters:
- onboard, MegaChips MCDP2800 FW 1.61
- external, Club3D CAC-1070 Paradetech PS176
You didn't state it, so I must ask to clarify - for the display in question, are you able to get UHD 60Hz 4:4:4 with other types of graphics, such as AMD or Nvidia?

Because if you haven't, then it's quite possible that your display simply isn't capable of it (unless it's a monitor, then it really should be - but it really should also have a DisplayPort input as well).
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post #562 of 575 Old 03-03-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
You didn't state it, so I must ask to clarify - for the display in question, are you able to get UHD 60Hz 4:4:4 with other types of graphics, such as AMD or Nvidia?

Because if you haven't, then it's quite possible that your display simply isn't capable of it (unless it's a monitor, then it really should be - but it really should also have a DisplayPort input as well).
Sorry about that, I'm using a Philips 43PUS6101/12 UHD TV, with HDMI3/4 set to 4:2:2/4:4:4 mode.
I've also tried four different HDMI cables and three other TVs (Samsung, LG, Panasonic)... could never get over 4:2:2.
I couldn't test any AMD/Nvidia card yet, that would clear things up.

I just wanted to know if anyone could do UHD 60 4:4:4 with a Intel HD graphics + DP-HDMI converter... if not I can stop trying and attack Intel/MegaChips/Paradetech.
My main suspicion is Intel, because in some situations (depending on driver release) I get no picture at all when windows is started
The lack of control options and dubug output is making it extremely difficult to pinpoint the problem.

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post #563 of 575 Old 03-03-2017, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thuety View Post
My main suspicion is Intel, because in some situations (depending on driver release) I get no picture at all when windows is started
It may be worth trying to make a custom resolution - I know on a 26" 1080p Vizio that I've re-purposed as a monitor, the Intel graphics (or the display itself?) won't run at 4:4:4 unless I delete the old 60Hz resolution and create a new one specifically at 60.00Hz and not 59.94Hz.


Note that you may have to use the beta Intel driver:
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/dow...er-Beta-15-45-

And then additionally use Custom Resolution Utility to actually make the custom resolution:
http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Th...on-Utility-CRU

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post #564 of 575 Old 03-18-2017, 08:35 AM
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- Philips 43PUS6101/12, internal media player: fail, Oppo 203: fail, Intel HD 500: fail, Nvidia GTX 960: fail
- Samsung UE43KU6070 (enable 'HDMI UHD Color', set HDMI input type to 'PC'), Intel HD 500: no picture
- Samsung UE48JU7580 (enable 'HDMI UHD Color', set HDMI input type to 'PC'), Intel HD 500 = perfect 4:4:4

quote from: http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...502#pid2549502
"It isn't unheard of for TVs to convert every source to 4:2:2 YCbCr internally for processing purposes"

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Last edited by thuety; 03-18-2017 at 08:40 AM.
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post #565 of 575 Old 06-04-2017, 03:48 AM
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i have a little bit of a weird problem overhere

I have a samsung pc monitor S32E590C. When i bought it i noticed that all colors appear to be dull and blurry (specially reds) and i didn't knew about chroma sampling. The weird problem is whenever i hold the joystick of the monitor it restarts with correct colors but whenever it turns off and back on again everything becomes blurry again so i am leaved with a situation where i either live with that or hold the joystick every time the monitor open (after pc startup or after sleep) to correct the issue. (NOTE samsung customer support failed to fix the issue they didn't even confess it's an issue). Luckily while i am disparate looking for solution i came across this post and i'll be really glad if someone could help me fixing this.

Monitor: S32E590C 32"
Native Resolution: 1080p
Video: Nvidia GTX960 (although i tried with ATI, Intel cards with same issue)

What i have tried so far...

1- Using DVI to HDMI cable (hooking the dvi to my video card and hdmi to the display). Problem Persists (audio still coming out over that cable if that is necessary)
2- Using Display port cable. Problem Persists
3- Trying to edit the resolution with CRU to LCD Reduced as some said. Problem Persists
4- Trying a custom resolution from Nvidia Control Panel with refresh rate 60.001Hz. Problem Persists

Well that's it and thanks in advance.
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post #566 of 575 Old 06-04-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pushqrdx View Post
all colors appear to be dull
This sounds like your PC is outputting limited color range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushqrdx View Post
and blurry (specially reds)
This sounds like your PC is outputting 4:2:0 chroma.



My theory is that you actually have two issues occurring here, and I know from experience that certain GPUs/drivers will insist on using those settings when using HDMI. I know you said you tried displayport, but honestly it'd probably be the safest bet with regard to solving issues (DVI is electrically compatible with HDMI).


Quote:
Originally Posted by pushqrdx View Post
2- Using Display port cable. Problem Persists
It's possible that you started with HDMI, it's possible that it simply remembered the chroma subsampling and color range settings. Try going into your GPU control panel and set your chroma subsampling to RGB.

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Originally Posted by pushqrdx View Post
3- Trying to edit the resolution with CRU to LCD Reduced as some said. Problem Persists
Did you make an actual different resolution, like 1920x1072? That's what I had to do with the Nvidia GPU in my HTPC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushqrdx View Post
4- Trying a custom resolution from Nvidia Control Panel with refresh rate 60.001Hz. Problem Persists
Indeed; as I experienced with the Nvidia GPU in my HTPC, changing the refresh rate does not help (I think that only works on Intel and/or ATI/AMD GPUs).
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post #567 of 575 Old 06-07-2017, 07:53 AM
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This sounds like your PC is outputting limited color range.


This sounds like your PC is outputting 4:2:0 chroma.



My theory is that you actually have two issues occurring here, and I know from experience that certain GPUs/drivers will insist on using those settings when using HDMI. I know you said you tried displayport, but honestly it'd probably be the safest bet with regard to solving issues (DVI is electrically compatible with HDMI).



It's possible that you started with HDMI, it's possible that it simply remembered the chroma subsampling and color range settings. Try going into your GPU control panel and set your chroma subsampling to RGB.


Did you make an actual different resolution, like 1920x1072? That's what I had to do with the Nvidia GPU in my HTPC.


Indeed; as I experienced with the Nvidia GPU in my HTPC, changing the refresh rate does not help (I think that only works on Intel and/or ATI/AMD GPUs).
Well i forgot to mention that the problem isn't PC related as when i detach all cables from the monitor the moving (RGB squares) that appear saying no input found are blurry, once i click the joystick for 5 seconds (as if i am resetting the screen settings) the colors become very sharp. yet whenever the monitor restarts or turns off i have to do the same again.
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post #568 of 575 Old 06-07-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pushqrdx View Post
Well i forgot to mention that the problem isn't PC related
It actually could still be related to the PC. Monitors in particular have much more basic scalars than TVs do, so it's extremely possible that the OSD of the monitor is actually running at the same resolution/colordepth/etc that the source video signal is running at for any given time, and even turning off the PC may still have the monitor run in the most recently-used resolution/colordepth/etc until you actually reboot the monitor itself.

This can be especially true since a monitor really does expect RGB 4:4:4, so feeding it a video signal that isn't that may result in some wonkiness.
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post #569 of 575 Old 06-10-2017, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
It actually could still be related to the PC. Monitors in particular have much more basic scalars than TVs do, so it's extremely possible that the OSD of the monitor is actually running at the same resolution/colordepth/etc that the source video signal is running at for any given time, and even turning off the PC may still have the monitor run in the most recently-used resolution/colordepth/etc until you actually reboot the monitor itself.

This can be especially true since a monitor really does expect RGB 4:4:4, so feeding it a video signal that isn't that may result in some wonkiness.
Thanks for the explanation, yet what should i do as i stated nothing works so far
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post #570 of 575 Old 06-10-2017, 01:09 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, yet what should i do as i stated nothing works so far
Did you actually try setting the video output format to RGB in your Nvidia control panel, and/or making a custom resolution of 1920x1072?

Or do you need help knowing how to do these things? (I can do that, just not this instant as I'm current on my AMD-powered laptop rather than my Nvidia-powered HTPC).
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