Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread - AVS Forum
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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SUMMARY

Do you need a TV that is 4:4:4 Chroma Capable?

Do you only use your TV for watching TV/movies and playing console video games? Then NO, you do not need a 4:4:4 capable TV.

Do you use your TV as a PC monitor or play PC video games? Then YES, it is strongly recommended you use a 4:4:4 capable TV.

For a list of TVs that can or cannot do 4:4:4, see post #2 in this thread.

INTRODUCTION

Using TVs as PC monitors is becoming increasingly popular. In my opinion, the two biggest factors that makes a TV a good PC monitor is 1) low input lag, and 2) 4:4:4 chroma support. Unfortunately, both capabilities are never published in TV specifications, so the only way to get a definitive answer is through testing.

Thanks to frito and his “Input lag wars!” thread, input lag awareness and discussion is widely available. Lately, there has been a lot of 4:4:4 discussion within frito’s input lag wars thread, but it’s beginning to “pollute” that thread’s original intent. So to clean things up a bit, this thread was created to establish a centralized thread for 4:4:4 chroma discussions.

THREAD PURPOSE

I anticipate this thread to be akin to frito’s input lag thread, but with emphasis on 4:4:4 chroma discussion instead. The first few posts will consist of three components:
  • Overall background on chroma subsampling. This will describe *what* chroma subsampling is all about and describe some use cases where 4:4:4 chroma support is preferred.
  • A FAQ for answering the most common questions regarding 4:4:4 capability, testing, and troubleshooting.
  • And finally, a list of TVs with proven 4:4:4 capability. See post #2. (Note: I’ll keep the list up-to-date as long as I can).
After that, as long as its 4:4:4 related, anything goes. Also, by no means am I the authoritative source on all chroma subsampling matters. I’m still learning as I go. So if you find a mistake, or think of something else that needs to be included here, please let me know. Other than that, let the fun begin!

BACKGROUND

B1) What is Chroma Subsampling?

Wikipedia explains chroma subsampling very well, so I’ll defer you to there: link.

In summary… Chroma subsampling is a process where color information (a.k.a., chrominance or chroma) is sacrificed in order to reduce bandwidth. Why sacrifice color information? It’s because of the limitations of our eyes. The human eye has poor color acuity for detecting color details -- especially on a moving object.

Chroma subsampling sounds like an awful idea, but think it in terms of individual pixels (which is the level where subsampling works its magic). Let’s say you have a column of bright-red pixels and another adjacent column of dark-red pixels. With subsampling, you’ll end up with two columns of bright-red pixels instead. Unless you sit 1 cm away from your TV and have the eyes of a hawk, it’s highly unlikely you can detect the difference. Compound the fact that typical video footage is a series of different images being displayed at a rate of 24/30/60 fps, subsampling becomes imperceptible to the human eye.

B2) What does “4:4:4” (or 4:2:2 or 4:2:0, etc) mean?

Again, Wikipedia explains this very well with illustrative examples: link. For more technical descriptions, check out these pages: link1, link2, link3.

For you audio-visual learners, this youtube video explains the nomenclature very well too: link.

To sum it up, 4:4:4 means no subsampling is used at all -- so your image is displayed in its purest form. Anything less than 4:4:4 means original color information is lost.



B3) I want to “future-proof / feature-proof” my TV as much as possible, do I still need 4:4:4?

Unless you have future plans on using your TV as a PC monitor, you still do not need a TV with 4:4:4 capability. Why? Because all commercial video footage (OTA TV, Cable, Satellite, Blurays, DVDs, Camcorders, etc) is already subsampled at the recording source. So there’s no point owning a 4:4:4 TV if you don’t have any 4:4:4 material.

In regards to modern game consoles like the Xbox360 and Playstation3, they *should* be able to produce 4:4:4 material (they’re essentially computers, after all). However, I have yet to find anything definitive on this topic. But for the sake of argument, let’s assume game consoles are 4:4:4 capable. With games updating at a rate of 30/60 fps, detecting pixel differences between 4:4:4 and non-4:4:4 under normal viewing conditions is impossible. So 4:4:4 or non-4:4:4 on game consoles becomes irrelevant.

B4) Why do TV / Movie studios do chroma subsampling?

For the most part, it’s because of modern limitations in data storage capacity and transmission bandwidth.

For example, all blurays are subsampled down to 4:2:0 at the mastering studio (this is according to official bluray spec). As a result, most bluray titles have an average video bitrate of 25 Mbps. Assuming a 2 hour movie, you need a storage medium that can hold ~22.5 GBytes; which a bluray disc can do no problem. Now lets do 4:4:4 (no subsampling) on that same 2 hour movie. Going from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 quadruples the amount of information required. So that 25 Mbps becomes 100 Mbps, and 22.5 GBytes becomes 90 GBytes; not even a dual-layer bluray disc can hold that much data.

If a bluray disc can’t hold it, don’t expect satellite/cable/fiber to transmit this kind of data either.

Note: the numbers used in this example are under review; will update when straightened out

B5) Is a TV with 4:4:4 capability *REALLY* that important for a PC monitor?

This is a really delicate matter, as results will vary vastly across different TV brands, TV models, manufacturing variances, anti-glare coating, lighting conditions, your own vision acuity, etc.

The general consensus is that without 4:4:4 capability, only red/orange/yellow colored text will be blurry. However, in my personal experience, *everything* looks blurry and slightly off without 4:4:4. Picture quality is obviously subjective, but based on my A/B test (A = LG LD450 with 4:4:4, B = LG LD450 without 4:4:4), there is a clear night-and-day difference between the two.

Describing quality differences through words is difficult, so I will let pictures do the talking instead. Here are some A/B comparisons between 4:4:4 and non-4:4:4. All pictures were taken under identical conditions without any post-manipulation (except a resize function).
  • Test 1: Windows Gadget Network Meter (reference image: link)
    • Light-blue and green text on black background - result
    • White and orange text on black background - result
    • Light-blue text on black background - result
  • Test 2: CNN Home Page (reference image: link)
    • White text on red background - result
    • “Real life” image - result
    • Black text on white background - result
  • Test 3: Chowhound Home Page (reference image: link)
    • Black text on yellow background - result
    • Bolded red text on white background - result
    • Regular red text on white background - result
  • Test 4: Hardforums Forum Page (reference image: link)
    • Text graphic (White text w/ black shadow on orange background) - result
    • Underlined bold orange text on dark gray background - result
    • Underlined regular orange text on dark gray background - result
From the examples, you can clearly see quality differences (except for the “real life” image). The differences are even more pronounced in-person. So is 4:4:4 a necessity? I certainly think so, especially when it comes to text.

TESTING AND TECHNICAL

T1) How do I know if my TV is 4:4:4 capable? -OR- How do I test for 4:4:4 capability?

Unfortunately, 4:4:4 capability is never listed in the spec sheets. So the only way to determine 4:4:4 capability is to test it yourself.

There are three ways of determining 4:4:4 capability: one is the quick-and-dirty / red-magenta method, the second is the Belle-Nuit method, and the third is the bspvette86 method.
  • Quick-and-Dirty Method (a.k.a., Red-Magenta Method): Open the image found here: link. Make sure you’re at 100% zoom, and pay special attention to the Red and Magenta columns. On a 4:4:4 TV, the “Red” and “Magenta” text will be nice and sharp just like the text in the other columns. On a non-4:4:4 TV, the “Red” and “Magenta” text will be noticeably fuzzy, but the text in the other columns will be nice and sharp.
  • Belle-Nuit Method: Open the image found here: link. Make sure you’re at 100% zoom, and pay special attention to the area with the red/cyan columns (to the left of the “20”). On a 4:4:4 TV, each red/cyan columns will be perfectly 1 pixel wide. On a non-4:4:4 TV, the red/cyan columns will have alternating thickness – some would be 1 pixel wide while others would be 2-3 pixels wide. Note: for the Bell-Nuit test, you may need a magnifying glass or macro lens to see the pixel widths clearly.
  • bspvette86 Test: Forum member bspvette86 has created his own 4:4:4 test pattern, and you can find it here: link. On a 4:4:4 TV, every horizontal and vertical line is exactly one pixel in height and width, respectively. On a non-4:4:4 TV, pixels will appear faded and/or duplicated -- this is most noticeable with the red, blue, and magenta lines. Note: for the bspvette86 test, you may need a magnifying glass or macro lens to see the pixel widths clearly.
To give you an idea of what 4:4:4 and non-4:4:4 results should look like, check out these three examples: link1, link2, and link3.

T2) My TV is said to be 4:4:4 capable, but its failing the 4:4:4 tests, what’s going on?

The easiest fix is to use a DVI->HDMI cable to connect your PC to your TV. In some rare cases though, a DVI->HDMI connection will still cause 4:4:4 to fail. Additional details on this will be discussed in question T3.

For some TVs, you have to set specific TV settings to enable 4:4:4 capability. These include things like switching to special picture modes (i.e., “Game” or “PC” mode) or relabeling your input ports. If your TV has these types of settings, give it a try and see if it passes the 4:4:4 tests.

For the TVs that have already been tested and require these special tweaks, I’ll be sure to note them in the 4:4:4 TV list.

T3) I’m using a DVI->HDMI cable, but I’m still failing 4:4:4, what’s going on?

Unfortunately, I don’t have a technical explanation why this happens to some people. The popular theory is that during the EDID exchange between video card and TV, the HDMI audio extensions becomes enabled over DVI. When HDMI audio extensions are enabled, *something* causes 4:4:4 to fail. I have no idea if this is a TV issue, or a video card issue, or a HDMI issue, or an EDID specification issue, or a combination.

The good news though, there is a fix that has a high success of getting 4:4:4 working again over a DVI->HDMI connection. This fix is commonly known as the EDID Override fix or the Disable HDMI Audio fix, which will be described in [the next question].

T4) What is the EDID Override fix? -OR- What is the Disable HDMI Audio fix?

The EDID Override fix (a.k.a., Disable HDMI Audio fix) disables the HDMI audio extensions after the initial EDID exchange takes place. I don’t know the technical details on why this fix works, it just does.

So how do you install the EDID Override fix? The Internet is littered with mini- How To’s, but the two that I’ve found to be the easiest to understand (even for those not technically savvy) are: Note1: Both walkthroughs achieve the same result, they just have different approaches. So go with whichever one you think easier. I personally prefer the currysauce way.

Note2: Both walkthroughs are written for nvidia video cards, but it’s the same for amd/ati video cards too.

T5) Is there an EDID Override fix for Linux PCs?

Yes, there is. Check this out: link.

T6) I want to use a HDMI->HDMI cable (because I want HDMI audio), can I still get 4:4:4?

From my experience and observations, the answer is no. As mentioned previously, *something* relating to HDMI audio extensions causes 4:4:4 to fail. Only by disabling the HDMI audio extensions (via a DVI->HDMI cable and/or EDID Override) will 4:4:4 become enabled.

There was some detailed discussion about this issue in the LG LD450 thread between galneon and a few others (starting at post #800 and ending at post #878), but nothing was ever conclusively determined.

If anyone has insights to this matter, then please let us know. If we can isolate the problem and develop a fix, then a lot of folks would benefit from it.

Note: with some 2011 TVs (ex., Sony HX729 and Samsung D6000), 4:4:4 is available even if HDMI audio is enabled. Hopefully this will become the norm and we'll see more 4:4:4 + HDMI audio TVs in the future.

T7) I want to take a chance on an untested TV. Are there features/indicators that will increase my probability of finding a 4:4:4 capable TV?

Generally, TVs with fancy features like 120+ Hz frame interpolation and dynamic image processing will not be 4:4:4 capable. These TVs are designed to manipulate the image, and therefore may be “hard-coded” with features that prevent 4:4:4 rendering. So go for the TVs that are minimalistic as possible (in other words, the cheap TVs).

I want to reiterate that this is only a rule-of-thumb. There does exist feature rich TVs that are indeed 4:4:4 capable. One prime example is the Sony EX720 series.

OTHER LINKS OF INTEREST

Here's a few other threads about 4:4:4 I've found. Most are inactive now, but still good sources of archival data. Special thanks to each thread's respective author.

- LCD Televisions with 4:4:4 Subsampling and low Input Lag (still active)
- input lag wars! (there's a lot of 4:4:4 info sprinkled throughout, but please keep 4:4:4 discussions in this thread and not over there)
- 4:4:4 Chroma Sampling - Questions
- 4:4:4 Chroma needed for HDTV as a computer monitor?
- Who can name a Panasonic TV that achieves full chroma resolution (4:4:4)?
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Note1: A different size of the same model should theoretically have the same PASS/FAIL result.
Note2: If you find a mistake in the list, let me know.

4:4:4 PASS/FAIL Television List

For the "Proof" column, P = photographic evidence and A = anecdotal evidence. P evidence trumps A evidence.

Year Brand Model 4:4:4 Proof Notes
2007 LG 37LB5D PASS A1 None
2007 LG 47SL90 PASS P1 None
2008 Samsung LN40A650 PASS A1 PC mode required
2008 Samsung LN46A950 PASS A1 PC mode required
2010 Insignia NS-32E570A11 PASS P1a/P1b None
2010 LG 32LD450 PASS P1 None
2010 LG 42LD450 PASS P1 None
2010 LG 42LD520 FAIL A1, P1 None
2010 LG ??LD550 FAIL A1 None
2010 LG ??LE5400 PASS A1, A2 None
2010 Panasonic TC-L42U25 FAIL P1 None
2010 RCA 40LA45RQ FAIL P1 None
2010 Samsung LN40C630 FAIL P1 None
2010 Samsung LN??C650 PASS A1 Set input port label to PC
2010 Sharp LC-40D68UT FAIL P1 None
2010 Sharp LC-46LE810UN FAIL P1 None
2010 Sony 32EX500 FAIL P1, P2 Only EU/UK version (w/ Bravia Engine 3) supports 4:4:4
2010 Sony 32EX700 PASS A1 Graphics mode required
2010 Sony 46NX711 PASS A1 Game mode required
2010 Sony ??HX909 PASS A1, A2, P1 Game mode or PC mode required
2010 Toshiba 40G300U FAIL P1 None
2010 Vizio M260MV PASS P1 None
2010 Vizio XVT473SV FAIL P1 None
2011 Dynex CX-32L230A12 PASS P1a/P1b/P1c Service menu has advanced tweaking options (RGB Gain/Offset, Sharpness, etc); info here - link
2011 JVC JLC37BC3000 FAIL P1 None
2011 LG 32LK450 PASS P1 None
2011 LG 42LK450 PASS A1, P1, P2, P3 Both S-IPS and VA panels pass 4:4:4
2011 LG 47LV5500 FAIL A1 None
2011 LG 47LW5300 FAIL A1 None
2011 Panasonic TC-L32U3 FAIL A1, P1 None
2011 Philips 47PFL4606H/12 PASS A1 PC mode required
2011 Samsung LE32D550 FAIL P1 European version of the LN32D550
2011 Samsung LN32D550 PASS P1, P2 Set input port label to PC/DVI; Will only pass belle-nuit test if Black Level = Low.
2011 Samsung UE40D5000 PASS P1 PC mode required
2011 Samsung UN32D6000 PASS P1 Set input port label to PC. Also supports 4:4:4 + HDMI audio through a HDMI->HDMI connection.
2011 Sony 32EX720 PASS P1 Game mode or Graphics mode required
2011 Sony 32EX723 PASS P1a/P1b Game mode or Graphics mode required
2011 Sony 46HX729 PASS P1 Graphics mode required. Also supports 4:4:4 + HDMI audio through a HDMI->HDMI connection
2011 Sony 55BX520 PASS A1 Game mode or Graphics mode required. Also supports 4:4:4 + HDMI audio through a HDMI->HDMI connection
2011 Westinghouse VR-3225 PASS A1, P1 None
2011 Westinghouse VR-3280 PASS P1 None
2011 Westinghouse VR-3730 PASS A1 None
2011 iSymphony LC32iF90 FAIL P1 None

The following table is for plasma televisions. I won't spend too much time researching this table, but I'll update it with any info that comes across my way.

Year Brand Model 4:4:4 Proof Notes
2008 Pioneer PDP-5020FD PASS A1 PC mode required
2011 Panasonic TC-P50ST30 FAIL P1 None
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:23 PM
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Nice job so far. Certainly has made a few things clearer to me. Looking forward to the next installment.
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:08 PM
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Let me begin the list: LG 47LW5300 - 4 2 2 is the best I can get. I'm using DVI to HDMI cable.
And let's get some thing straight, sometimes full chroma is important in games as well. For example I like to play flight simulator games like FSX and reading small gauges is important, but guess what? They're hard to read when color is subsampled. Anyhow, just looking at the desktop with subsampled chroma is an eyesore, especially on gorgeous 40-50 inch screen and that's good enough reason to keep this going, at least for me. Thanks for starting it.
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:29 PM
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I think you made a mistake in your data rate calculations. If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong, it's been few yrs since I study this) you only need 3 values for each pixel: value for R, G, B and from that you can calculate luma, or you can have luma and B and G, from that you can calculate R. So from your 8 pixel example you need 8*3=24 bytes for full RGB signal and you need 8+2=10 bytes for chroma 4 2 0. So now your original 25 GB subsampled movie would become 60GB full RGB version, not 100GB, or whatever the original file size you used in your sample (file size *2.4). The difference should be 1/3 with chroma 422. So the file is bigger but I think not as much as you stated.
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Old 12-22-2011, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

I think you made a mistake in your data rate calculations. If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong, it's been few yrs since I study this) you only need 3 values for each pixel: value for R, G, B and from that you can calculate luma, or you can have luma and B and G, from that you can calculate R. So from your 8 pixel example you need 8*3=24 bytes for full RGB signal and you need 8+2=10 bytes for chroma 4 2 0. So now your original 25 GB subsampled movie would become 60GB full RGB version, not 100GB, or whatever the original file size you used in your sample (file size *2.4). The difference should be 1/3 with chroma 422. So the file is bigger but I think not as much as you stated.

Somewhere online, I read a brief statement that said going from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 meant quadrupling the bandwidth. Although admittedly, your explanation sounds much more plausible. Let me read a bit more on it and I'll update accordingly. Thanks for the heads up!
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Old 12-22-2011, 11:37 PM
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how about checking the EDID for 4:4:4? mine says, 'Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes'
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Old 12-22-2011, 11:49 PM
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Come to think of it no matter how you send the data, 1/4 data rate with chroma 420 has to be wrong. Color info alone is 4 times higher in 4 4 4 than in 4 2 0, right? But in each case full luma (black and white info) is send as well. So when you add luma and chroma together the ratio has to be less than 4 times.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:26 AM
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As far as I know that only means TV can receive that data format, it doesn't mean it will display it without downsampling. My video card tells me it sends YCbCr 4 4 4 or RGB 4 4 4, but screen shows 4 2 2. BTW on mine RGB looks better, but still dowsampled.

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how about checking the EDID for 4:4:4? mine says, 'Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes'

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Old 12-23-2011, 05:48 AM
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First of all, thanks for great thread.
AFAIK, PC mode for HDMI input means RGB and all the others mean YCbCr. And "PC monitor" means RGB I'd guess.
Here is a question:
T8) What if I have 2 separated connections from one ATI card:
- DVI - HDMI: TV (not a "proper" DVI-HDMI adaptor w/o sound. Picture only)
- HDMI - HDMI: AVR (sound only)
?
OK, I'll check later by myself, but can't promise a pics.

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Old 12-23-2011, 08:14 AM
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PC "mode" or input on a TV usually means it will interpret video data as "PC video levels", e.g. 0 is black and 254 is white. Depending on the TV it may or may not accept YCbCr since RGB is what PCs use. If it does accept YCbCr, then it still probably expects PC video levels.

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Old 12-23-2011, 08:35 AM
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For my LG LCD "PC" means RGB and High Black level gives 0-255, Low Black level gives 16-235.

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Old 12-23-2011, 09:13 AM
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T8) What if I have 2 separated connections from one ATI card:
- DVI - HDMI: TV (not a "proper" DVI-HDMI adaptor w/o sound. Picture only)
- HDMI - HDMI: AVR (sound only)
?
OK, I'll check later by myself, but can't promise a pics.

A) 4:4:4 (at least Red & Magenta are OK). TV in PC mode. Sorry, can't make a pics (batteries are low).

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Old 12-23-2011, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

how about checking the EDID for 4:4:4? mine says, 'Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes'

As pete4 mentioned, this is an unreliable method for checking 4:4:4 capability. The Panasonic E3/U3 reports the same "Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes", but its been said by a few folks that it doesn't truly support 4:4:4.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:59 PM
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By the way :

Quote:


Unfortunately, I don’t have a technical explanation why this happens to some people. The popular theory is that during the EDID exchange between video card and TV, the HDMI audio extensions becomes enabled (even though DVI is incapable of audio)

I have LK450, DVI-HDMI cable, Nvidia video adapter. Nvidia Control Panel shows "Connector : HDMI-HDMI" and there's audio. Of course, as expected, 4:4:4 is disabled. With EDID override audio is disabled and 4:4:4 is enabled.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way :

I have LK450, DVI-HDMI cable, Nvidia video adapter. Nvidia Control Panel shows "Connector : HDMI-HDMI" and there's audio. Of course, as expected, 4:4:4 is disabled. With EDID override audio is disabled and 4:4:4 is enabled.

Is that nvidia video adapter some sort of nvidia-proprietary adapter that overlays audio over a DVI interface/signal? Because I don't think DVI officially supports audio.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:31 PM
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Is that nvidia video adapter some sort of nvidia-proprietary adapter that overlays audio over a DVI interface/signal? Because I don't think DVI officially supports audio.

It's GTX 400 series.

Did a quick google search :

Quote:


Note that some graphics cards now are spitting out audio over the DVI connection. I have a GTX 460 which comes with audio drivers, connected with a simple DVI to HDMI cable, and I've got sound on both a TV and monitor via this setup.

http://www.cnet.com.au/does-dvi-carr...-339270821.htm

So i'm not alone.
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:29 PM
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Mods! Please make this thread stick to the first page!
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:58 PM
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ATI does it too. DVI not supposed to support audio, but somehow ATI does it. I don't remember anymore if all you need is DVI to HDMI cable, or you need special adapter from ATI (DVI to HDMI) and then HDMI to HDMI cable. I may need to figure this out soon since my older TV had DVI port with RCA sound, the new one has only HDMI.
The ATI port itself seems standard DVI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepoohcontinuum View Post

Is that nvidia video adapter some sort of nvidia-proprietary adapter that overlays audio over a DVI interface/signal? Because I don't think DVI officially supports audio.

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Old 12-23-2011, 10:19 PM
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I've been playing around with my setup for the past several hours to see if I can get 4:4:4 with audio.

Current Setup:
Primary Monitor - Insignia NS-32E570A11 32" LED 120hz 1920x1080
Secondary Monitor (for when tv is in use) - BenQ G2222HDH 22" 1920x1080
Videocard - AMD Radeon 6970
The tv is ran through a Denon 1712 AVR

Here's what I know:
4:4:4 works perfect with DVI to HDMI
4:2:2 with HDMI and audio (AVR reports 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4)
4:2:2 with Displayport to HDMI and audio (AVR reports 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4)
AVR reports 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2 when set to 4:2:2 in Cataylst Control Center
DVI and HDMI cloned desktop refresh sync is fixed with HDMI and Displayport

Here's the kicker:
My BenQ PC monitor is VGA and HDMI input with 2 channel output (no built in speakers). The BenQ does 4:4:4 with 2 channel audio over HDMI and Displayport.

So then I played around with EDID settings.
Insignia with BenQ EDID - 4:2:2 and 2 channel audio
Insignia with Insignia video and BenQ audio EDID - 4:2:2 and 2 channel audio
Insignia with BenQ and Denon audio EDID - 4:2:2 and 7.1 audio

Then I swapped the Insignia with the BenQ for curiosity sake. I get 4:4:4 and 7.1 audio through the Denon AVR. I viewed the Belle Nuit diagram on my Denon DBP-1610 blu ray player. The BenQ passed and the Insignia failed (AVR reported 12 bit YCbCr 4:4:4).

Just really annoying that I know it does 4:4:4 with DVI to HDMI. Obviously this is a TV hardware issue. The only thing I've yet to try is get a HDMI to DVI adaptor and use a DVI to HDMI cable on the receiver output. The receiver already has stripped the audio from the signal at that point and should still be able to pull the EDID from the TV. I guess will only cost me another $10 to try...
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:22 PM
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This is great thread. I keep asking about 4:4:4 color on some of the TV threads, but it is hard to get info.

The only website I have seen that checks for 4:4:4 color reproduction in their reviews is HDTVtest in the UK. I think all of them should test for this.

Michael
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Old 12-24-2011, 03:42 AM
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i have a philips 47pfl4606h/12. i use this tv to play games on pc with hdmi to hdmi on my geforce gtx 560ti.
In pc mode (it's an option of my television) the 4:4:4 it's perfect . I used the Red-Magenta Method.
i don't notice any input lag (after a firmware upgrade to the last version) and the image quality it's perfect.
So if someone search a big television to play games i advice this tv model.
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:48 AM
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Well I finally got the macro function working correctly on my camera.

Insignia NS-32E570A11 with DVI to HDMI


Insignia NS-32E570A11 with HDMI and audio


BenQ for comparison purposes
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

ATI does it too. DVI not supposed to support audio, but somehow ATI does it. I don't remember anymore if all you need is DVI to HDMI cable, or you need special adapter from ATI (DVI to HDMI) and then HDMI to HDMI cable. I may need to figure this out soon since my older TV had DVI port with RCA sound, the new one has only HDMI.
The ATI port itself seems standard DVI.

DVI actually supports audio just fine, most adapters just dont connect those pins, and most devices dont support it when receiving a DVI connection. HDMI is technically only DVI with a different connector (at least for most features, HDMI adds a few new ones)
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:26 AM
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HDMI is basically a big superset of DVI - going by the specs. There's probably nothing stopping one from connecting a DVI connector to the output of a HDMI chip. That would be one way of getting HDMI features from a DVI connector. It's unlikely that HDMI features would work with a DVI chip/input on the target device. CE DVI chips do not support audio or YCbCr video. DVI was spec'd to be a PC monitor connection and then CE video started using it.

Also, when testing a display for the chroma issues, you need to know if your input is "correct". BD/DVD players with HDMI output can have chroma delay and other issues. I would suspect that video cards would be susceptible to the same issues.

larry

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Old 12-24-2011, 09:42 AM
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This is a great thread! I've been wondering about this for years. I'd like to add that the Pioneer 5020 passes in PC mode, but the colors are off. Every other mode including the cinema mode fails and certain colored text is blurry.

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Also, when testing a display for the chroma issues, you need to know if your input is "correct". BD/DVD players with HDMI output can have chroma delay and other issues. I would suspect that video cards would be susceptible to the same issues.

larry

Actually video cards are very much problem free, with only 2 companies and unified drivers for the range of products it's rare for the drivers to have problems. I'd consider a PC with a modern day graphics card a much better source than most BD players.

Edit: I also think this should be moved to Flat Panel General forum as this is an issue that affects plasma as well as LCDs.

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:02 PM
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I think this is only an issue with PC input and personally I would never use plasma with PC, maybe we should keep this here, after all LCD forum is probably more logical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

Actually video cards are very much problem free, with only 2 companies and unified drivers for the range of products it's rare for the drivers to have problems. I'd consider a PC with a modern day graphics card a much better source than most BD players.

Edit: I also think this should be moved to Flat Panel General forum as this is an issue that affects plasma as well as LCDs.

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Old 12-24-2011, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

I think this is only an issue with PC input and personally I would never use plasma with PC, maybe we should keep this here, after all LCD forum is probably more logical.

I agree. A vast majority of people who use their TVs as a full time computer monitor choose LCDs over plasmas (less power consumption, less image retention issues, 1:1 pixel mapping, size constraints, etc).

Still, I'll go ahead and create a table for plasmas. I won't spend much time actively researching plasmas, but I'll update it with any info that I randomly come across.
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