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post #1 of 19 Old 01-15-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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If I understand judder correctly(choppy movements, usually during panning or medium speed human movement), then I'm seeing it on my TV when I watch movies. My question is...Do all LED/LCD TV's have some judder? My TV is 120Hz, but I get judder on certain channels (TBS, TNT, etc) when they are showing movies and when watching movies via my Apple TV (although far less often on the Apple TV). I don't see it at all on ESPN and when I play XBOX, it's flawless. I'm assuming this has to do with the 3:2 pulldown, but curious if this is a limitation in the technology, or if it might be due to my specific TV? I have a Rear Projection LCD that has no problems, as do either of my smaller TV's. It's just my 46" LED that I notice it. Any insights?

Thanks everyone.
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-15-2012, 09:08 PM
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Judder shows up on 24FPS recorded films, when displayed on 60Hz TV and I would imagine ESPN shows most of the programs recorded on 60FPS video? Same goes for all other video recorded or live broadcast like news, game shows, soap operas etc. so no judder here. Same goes for Xbox: games are 60FPS rendered by GPU, movies are send by internet at original 24FPS.
Since your TV is 120Hz, it can do 5:5 full up from 24FPS source, but the problem is all broadcast is 60Hz so 3:2 pullup is done already at the broadcast source.
So, assuming your TV is properly set for using 120Hz with 5:5 pull up (on LG set I think it's called real cinema and needs to be on, not sure what TV do you have) if you see judder then:
1. your TV can't reverse 3:2 pullup broadcasted at 60Hz back to original 24 FPS and then display it with 5:5 pull up at 120Hz at all.
2. Your TV can do it but needs to see proper flags telling it the original source is 24FPS film and those flags are not properly set when broadcasted. I believe there are some algorithms that can detect 24FPS film source without reading any flags.
I would speculate that since judder on 120Hz set is due to the way the video is processed, it has nothing to do with display panel like LCD or LED.
It could have more to do with the cost of TV, more expensive sets would have more elaborate and more capable video processors.
Besides I had seen tons of judder on my old CRT, so this is not new phenomena.
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-15-2012, 09:39 PM
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I see judder on my Pioneer plasma with 1080 24p material. It's the nature of the beast.

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

I see judder on my Pioneer plasma with 1080 24p material. It's the nature of the beast.

Is your Pioneer running a 3:2 pulldown or an even cadence when you notice the judder?

Thanks.
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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My TV is an RCA LED (LED46A55R120Q). I picked it up for ~$600 on sale, so it was definitely a great price for a 46" LED. I was just trying to determine if I went with a more expensive set, if it would eliminate the judder. I'd hate to spend more money and have the same problem, but if a better set would eliminate the judder, then I'd be willing to pay more. I'm still within the return window time frame, so need to decide before that ends. Thanks again.
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryder_78 View Post

Is your Pioneer running a 3:2 pulldown or an even cadence when you notice the judder?

Thanks.

I notice it whether running 3:2 or at 72 hz when pure cinema is set at advanced. More noticeable with 3:2

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

I notice it whether running 3:2 or at 72 hz when pure cinema is set at advanced. More noticeable with 3:2

Thanks for the response. I've experienced serious judder with some of my HD movies in 3:2 cadence. Perhaps I am overly-critical. I'll be getting standalone media player this weekend to enable Cinema Smooth, a feature in my Samsung plasma that will run 96Hz. I am hopeful it will reduce judder to a noticeable if not significant degree.

Hopefully TV manufacturers will come up with something, whatever technology, that will reduce judder to an extremely low level if not eliminate it completely although films are still shot at 24fps.

Cheers.
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post #8 of 19 Old 02-14-2012, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input everyone. I'm currently trying to decide if I should return my TV and go for something along the lines of the LG LW5600...however, the only strong reason I would do it, would be to eliminate the judder. The other benefits of the LG (viewing angle, 3D, Smart TV) are only of minimal importance to me, so if it wouldn't fix the judder, I'd rather stick with my $600 TV, then spend the additional $400 to get the LG. However, I'm not sure how to figure this out, without bringing the TV's home and trying them out. Any ideas?
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-15-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMich97 View Post

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm currently trying to decide if I should return my TV and go for something along the lines of the LG LW5600...however, the only strong reason I would do it, would be to eliminate the judder. The other benefits of the LG (viewing angle, 3D, Smart TV) are only of minimal importance to me, so if it wouldn't fix the judder, I'd rather stick with my $600 TV, then spend the additional $400 to get the LG. However, I'm not sure how to figure this out, without bringing the TV's home and trying them out. Any ideas?

Name brands such as Samsung, Sony, and LG have been working on motion control for years and probably have better motion control than your RCA. I've read that Sony's Motionflow is the best. Samsung's was good on LCDs, but there have been some complaints on the LEDs. However that may be due to the Film mode setting folks are using.

I suggest reading professional reviews of the models you are looking at from CNET, Home Theater Magazine, and others available online. Also, take a look at the threads for those models. Finally, take a look at customer reviews from Amazon, etc. Good Luck.
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post #10 of 19 Old 02-15-2012, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks dfp. I've been impressed with the reviews of the LG LW5600, the problem is that the RCA I purchased has very few reviews (the few it has are from others who purchased and they are positive), so it's hard for me to tell if I'd have the same issues with the LG, as I do with the RCA. My hunch tells me the LG would be better, since I don't see the judder on our 32" LG LED or our 50" Hitachi LCD Rear Projection. However, if it's something due to the source material and it only gets picked up by the 46" LED, then I could still have the issue. What I may do, is pick up the LG and if it isn't any better, return it. If it is, return the RCA. It's too bad with all the technology we have, that this would be an issue, but sometimes for every two steps forward, there is one step back, I suppose.
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-15-2012, 05:15 PM
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Are you having a problem with 24fps Judder when watching slow panning scenes or are you having a problem with 3:2 pulldown conversion Judder when watching film content?
AFAIK you can you can not elimintate both types of Judder at the same time. You eliminate/reduce 24fps frame rate conversion Judder you need to use motion compensation(interpolation) and not 5:5 pulldown(cinema mode) to eliminate 3:2 Judder.
If you use 5:5 pulldown to eliminate conversion Judder you can not use motion compensation(interpolation) to eliminate 24fps frame rate Judder.
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post #12 of 19 Old 02-15-2012, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure....maybe both. TNT and TBS seem to be the worst, and it's both when they play movies or certain sitcoms. However, not all movies or all sitcoms, but most. The main issue is jerky or stuttering human movement. I notice the panning issues as well, but they are not as frequent, so not nearly as annoying. If I turn on the motion effect, the soap opera effect gets pretty bad and there is still some stuttering in movement. If I turn on film mode, it seems to do nothing. So, maybe that means its mostly the 3:2 pulldown? Would a more expensive set like the LG handle this better, or is it inherent in LED technology? As mentioned, my other TV's have zero issues. On my RCA LED, some programs are unwatchable.
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post #13 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 07:18 AM
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Your problem is that you do not like frame interpolation motion control since it causes the SOE since it smoothes out the 24fps content.
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post #14 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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If it completely eliminated the stuttering, I'd probably be ok with it. The problem is it doesn't completely fix the stuttering and seems to introduce other weird aspects (like people's mouths not syncing with words). What I can't quite understand, is why I only have this issue on certain channels and only on my 46" LED. If its inherent in all LED's this size, then maybe I'd be happier with a plasma or LCD? My parents have a 50" Samsung Plasma with zero issues and our 50" Hitachi rear projection LCD has zero issues. Do you happen to know if it's just something unique to the large LED TV's? I'm starting to think that is the case, yet I find it hard to believe every LED isn't reviewed poorly if that were the case. [confused]. I'm almost wondering if I should just go buy an LG or Samsung and see. If its not better, return both TV's and try a different technology.
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post #15 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 10:29 AM
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My HD LCD has a separate lip-sync adjustment function. Using it I only have lipsync problems with ABC news clips from locations other then the local ABC broadcaster.
Cable only channels are more likely to have problems since they try and use the minimum possible bandwidth.
You possibly will be happier with a Plasma since plasma is not a "show and hold" technology.
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post #16 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMich97 View Post

If it completely eliminated the stuttering, I'd probably be ok with it. The problem is it doesn't completely fix the stuttering and seems to introduce other weird aspects (like people's mouths not syncing with words). What I can't quite understand, is why I only have this issue on certain channels and only on my 46" LED. If its inherent in all LED's this size, then maybe I'd be happier with a plasma or LCD? My parents have a 50" Samsung Plasma with zero issues and our 50" Hitachi rear projection LCD has zero issues. Do you happen to know if it's just something unique to the large LED TV's? I'm starting to think that is the case, yet I find it hard to believe every LED isn't reviewed poorly if that were the case. [confused]. I'm almost wondering if I should just go buy an LG or Samsung and see. If its not better, return both TV's and try a different technology.

Screen size or backlighting method has no effect on judder. You said you don't see it on your 32" LG (presumably with the same source material) so it's fair to assume that something other than the larger screen size or led vs lcd backlighting is causing the problem on your RCA.

It is true that some pq problems are more visible on larger screens but jerky movement shouldn't be one of them. I have seen very jerky movement (not panning movement, just ordinary movement) intermittently on high end Samsungs that could not be made to go away with any interpolation settings or by turning off interpolation altogether.

Steve S.
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post #17 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 11:56 AM
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Three years ago, those 2 cable channels used to be notorious for judder. However, in my area, TNT is rock solid on hit prime time shows like The Closer, etc.

For awhile we were watching Murder She Wrote reruns on Hallmark back then, and it was juddering like crazy, no way AMP on my Samsung could get rid of it. I think they removed frames frames to squeeze in a few more commercials. It seemed to happen on outdoor scenes when there was no dialog. So we wouldn't notice.

PS: If you have an HDDVR, make sure to record some bad shows in case you do your 2-TV comparison.
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post #18 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the insights and knowledge sharing.

The 32" LG that I have that has zero issues is also an LED, 60Hz, 720p. The source is the same, with the exception of it using a non-HD cable box. The 50" Hitachi is an LCD rear projection and has the exact same source and same HD box as the RCA. The Hitachi is about 5-6 years old, so assume it's 60Hz. It is 1080i.

I've tried running a different cable line to see if it was the actual coax cable, but that didn't seem to make a difference. I also switched the two HD cable boxes and that didn't change the issue either. So, I'm assuming it has something to do with the specific TV. Would it be possible that the other two TV's have better processors? Or could it be something that occurs because of the 120Hz? I thought the 120Hz would only be better for film over 60Hz TV's. What about the 1080p vs 1080i and 720p?
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post #19 of 19 Old 02-19-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I noticed something today, that probably makes sense somehow, but I couldn't figure it out. When I held up my iPhone and took video of a show that was juddering really bad, when I played it back on the iPhone, the judder seemed to be gone, which would be impossible. So, I'm thinking the judder is somehow tied to the frames. I'm assuming the iPhone captures less frames, so you miss the judder? Could this mean the 120hz actually hurts performance?
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