Are You Happy With Your 60 Hz HDTV? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I love my Samsung 40" HDTV. At 60 Hz. Love it.

I do get the niggling suspicion that I'd be even happier with 120 hz AMP. After all, I can turn it off if I don't like it.

Quite frankly, I wasn't even planning on "going" HDTV at all; I just saw a BF flyer from BB and decided I'd score a $200 40" HDTV. In other words, I don't want to get into an escalating spiral of chasing features and technology.

I have to decide on either my current TV or a samsung 120 hz amp.

So, are YOU happy with your 60 hz HDTV? Or, does motion blur bother you?
audio/videoman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 01:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,737
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 144
The reason for getting a TV with a refresh rate of 120hz (or another multiple of 24) is to get rid of pulldown judder. It doesn't get rid of motion blur. Motion blur is usually inherent in all films or TV shows shot at 24hz or a similar refresh rate. LCD's that can support 24p will actually add to the motion blur effect in 24p mode because the LCD panels used are very slow. They're getting better but they're still leaps and bounds behind other technologies. Many LCD TV manufacturers have developed what's called creative frame interpolation video processing to help out with normal motion blur inherent to the source and the blur added by the LCD panel itself. DLP is the way to go to get the most motion blur free experience in a normal 24p rendering without any frame interpolation.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #3 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 01:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,737
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 144
I almost forgot to mention. You've probably already heard of creative frame interpolation just not as that. People usually refer to it as giving the video a "soap opera" effect. The technology has come a long way since then and many manufacturers have developed it enough where it isn't so aggressive so the video will resemble the 24p original but at the same time get rid of some of the blur. If you don't notice judder on your 60hz TV I doubt motion blur will annoy you much. So if you do end up buying a 120hz HDTV you could probably leave the processing off and enjoy 24p without any creative frame interpolation.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #4 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you for the clarification. I would say both judder and motion blur are a bit problematic for me.

This is because I was formerly watching all movies on my 13" macbook and I've now stepped up to a 40" HDTV 1080p. Everything: detail as well as judder and blur, are greatly magnified in size, and hence, much more noticeable.

If I understand correctly, frame interpolation will reduce motion blur but not judder? I thought frame interpolation would address both issues.

I'm assuming 120 hz in and of itself doesn't address either, it's just that 120 hz is necessary for me to get frame interpolation (amp).
audio/videoman is offline  
post #5 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 02:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,737
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

Thank you for the clarification. I would say both judder and motion blur are a bit problematic for me.

This is because I was formerly watching all movies on my 13" macbook and I've now stepped up to a 40" HDTV 1080p. Everything: detail as well as judder and blur, are greatly magnified in size, and hence, much more noticeable.

If I understand correctly, frame interpolation will reduce motion blur but not judder? I thought frame interpolation would address both issues.

I'm assuming 120 hz in and of itself doesn't address either, it's just that 120 hz is necessary for me to get frame interpolation (amp).

Without pulldown you don't add any judder to the image. Most directors/cinematographers know the limits of 24fps in terms of motion. You don't normally see too much judder in films or TV shows and if it's there it's usually very light. There are some movies I remember that do have some judder inherent in the pure 24p video. CFI will help with this as well.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #6 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 03:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
You need 120Hz if you want to eliminate 3:2 pulldown Judder which is caused when 24fps source is converted to 60fps. This is different then using frame interpolation to reduce 24fps frame rate judder/motion blur.
walford is offline  
post #7 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 03:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JukeBox360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 6,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

I love my Samsung 40" HDTV. At 60 Hz. Love it.

I do get the niggling suspicion that I'd be even happier with 120 hz AMP. After all, I can turn it off if I don't like it.

Quite frankly, I wasn't even planning on "going" HDTV at all; I just saw a BF flyer from BB and decided I'd score a $200 40" HDTV. In other words, I don't want to get into an escalating spiral of chasing features and technology.

I have to decide on either my current TV or a samsung 120 hz amp.

So, are YOU happy with your 60 hz HDTV? Or, does motion blur bother you?

Wait wait wait... wait. You're saying you got a 40 inch Samsung HDTV for $200?
JukeBox360 is offline  
post #8 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 04:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
redwolf4k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

I love my Samsung 40" HDTV. At 60 Hz. Love it.

I do get the niggling suspicion that I'd be even happier with 120 hz AMP. After all, I can turn it off if I don't like it.

Quite frankly, I wasn't even planning on "going" HDTV at all; I just saw a BF flyer from BB and decided I'd score a $200 40" HDTV. In other words, I don't want to get into an escalating spiral of chasing features and technology.

I have to decide on either my current TV or a samsung 120 hz amp.

So, are YOU happy with your 60 hz HDTV? Or, does motion blur bother you?

You may be surprised to find that a 60hz model samsung may look much much smoother then a 120hz AMP model, simply because the majority of the 120hz AMP models seems to have this jerkiness to them that doesn't exist in even the cheapest 60hz LCD tvs.

I find my 60hz cheap Sharp non-aquos LCD to have better motion performance then my 55" LED driven LCD D6000 120hz AMP model. The majority of the AMP feature is broken. Creating more blur and stutter then a traditional 60hz LCD.
redwolf4k is offline  
post #9 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Member
 
Emerick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Without enabling the motion interpolation feature (which I pretty much hate), I find it extremely difficult to notice a difference between a 60Hz and a 120Hz LCD TV during most circumstances. Like others have said, however, it does help erase pulldown judder with filmed content (Blu-rays).
Emerick99 is offline  
post #10 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 06:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MrBobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

I don't want to get into an escalating spiral of chasing features and technology.

Exactly. Once you starting thinking "can I be happier" say bye-bye to your wallet.

Occasionally, I've seen motion blur from my 60hz, caused it seem by some old DVDs, don't happen often enough to bother me. And no the black bars on a 4:3 program doesn't bother me either, am engrossed in the story, not the dang TV.

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

MrBobb is offline  
post #11 of 41 Old 01-21-2012, 05:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BoilerJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 6,168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

Exactly. Once you starting thinking "can I be happier" say bye-bye to your wallet.

Occasionally, I've seen motion blur from my 60hz, caused it seem by some old DVDs, don't happen often enough to bother me. And no the black bars on a 4:3 program doesn't bother me either, am engrossed in the story, not the dang TV.

^^^^ +1 to all (except the motion blur).
BoilerJim is online now  
post #12 of 41 Old 01-21-2012, 06:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
If a camera scene is the subject of a slow pan then there will be unremovable motion scan if the camera lens is open for 1/24 of a second and is open possible if the lens is open for 1/48 of a second due to movement while the lens is open.
walford is offline  
post #13 of 41 Old 01-21-2012, 06:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,665
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

I love my Samsung 40" HDTV. At 60 Hz. Love it.

I do get the niggling suspicion that I'd be even happier with 120 hz AMP. After all, I can turn it off if I don't like it.

Quite frankly, I wasn't even planning on "going" HDTV at all; I just saw a BF flyer from BB and decided I'd score a $200 40" HDTV. In other words, I don't want to get into an escalating spiral of chasing features and technology.

I have to decide on either my current TV or a samsung 120 hz amp.

So, are YOU happy with your 60 hz HDTV? Or, does motion blur bother you?

No body can really answer for you since it is what your eyes see. That being said, both of my 60hz LCDs have substantial motion blur on all content. For this reason I watch sporting events on the non-LCD TVs in the house. I have yet to see a 60hz LCD that does not have motion blur. 60hz panels today are the low end and do not have the response times and other manipulation techniques needed to minimize motion blur on LCDs. Look around for LCDs with the highest measured motion resolution, they are all expensive, at least 120hz and have some sort of algorithms (frame interpolation, black frame insertion, backlight scanning, etc) to help with the issue.
primetimeguy is online now  
post #14 of 41 Old 01-21-2012, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Wait wait wait... wait. You're saying you got a 40 inch Samsung HDTV for $200?

Wouldn't it have been nice?!

The BF special was for a sharp 40" 1080 at $200. Very few got it. My consolation was a gorgeous, stunning 40" 1080p samsung at $430.

Every day I am completely wow'ed by this incredible tv. But I want more.....(Anakin reference)....but I know I shouldn't lol.
audio/videoman is offline  
post #15 of 41 Old 01-21-2012, 06:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JukeBox360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 6,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post


Wouldn't it have been nice?!

The BF special was for a sharp 40" 1080 at $200. Very few got it. My consolation was a gorgeous, stunning 40" 1080p samsung at $430.

Every day I am completely wow'ed by this incredible tv. But I want more.....(Anakin reference)....but I know I shouldn't lol.

Wow. $200 is a crazy deal.
JukeBox360 is offline  
post #16 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just can't bear to part with my samsung. The picture is just too gorgeous. I am enjoying sports on this tv just fine as well.

If I get another TV, it will be in addition to what I have. Samsung 46" LNXX630 anyone???
audio/videoman is offline  
post #17 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MrBobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

Every day I am completely wow'ed by this incredible tv. But I want more.....(Anakin reference)....but I know I shouldn't lol.

Ref.: Comedian George Carlin on STUFF.

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

MrBobb is offline  
post #18 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's looking more and more like I'll have to get a new tv, relegating my current samsung to role of "second tv." Picture quality is first rate, but the quirks cancel out it's strengths:

1. every time I power on a device connected to the tv, broadcast tv signal reception goes on the fritz. Apparently, any device sucks enough power to draw enough power from the terk antenna amp to compromise reception.

2. only 2 hdmi ins, no audio out, no headphone jack, etc.

3. samsung amp does work, and I must admit this is a feature that will come in quite handy for sports viewing.

It's very frustrating: it's like driving a porsche with 400 horses, but with tires, wheels and bucket seats from a yugo, none of which can be replaced.
audio/videoman is offline  
post #19 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 04:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Possibly you do not have a common ground between the antenna and the other devices.
If your antenna is amplified try it with the amplifier turned off.
If you are using a splitter with the antenna HDMI connection bypass it since it is splitting the signal strength.
walford is offline  
post #20 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Member
 
mppatt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I love my old 60hz sony. The only reason I'll replace it is because it's a tiny 46"
mppatt01 is offline  
post #21 of 41 Old 01-23-2012, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'd like to get more info about this. Can others confirm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

You may be surprised to find that a 60hz model samsung may look much much smoother then a 120hz AMP model, simply because the majority of the 120hz AMP models seems to have this jerkiness to them that doesn't exist in even the cheapest 60hz LCD tvs.

I find my 60hz cheap Sharp non-aquos LCD to have better motion performance then my 55" LED driven LCD D6000 120hz AMP model. The majority of the AMP feature is broken. Creating more blur and stutter then a traditional 60hz LCD.

audio/videoman is offline  
post #22 of 41 Old 01-23-2012, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
J Cameron states that he will film the next avatar at 48 fps. If other filmmakers follow suit, this will re-introduce judder in 120 hz sets as well, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

You need 120Hz if you want to eliminate 3:2 pulldown Judder which is caused when 24fps source is converted to 60fps. This is different then using frame interpolation to reduce 24fps frame rate judder/motion blur.

audio/videoman is offline  
post #23 of 41 Old 01-23-2012, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Digital Rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
What sports programming suffers from image blur? I just don't notice it on my 60hz displays & I consider myself picky. Is it safe to say that many people confuse image blur with mosquito noise?
Digital Rules is offline  
post #24 of 41 Old 01-24-2012, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Football, which I don't watch very much of. But any fast moving action on any tv will create some motion blur, whether 60 or 120 hz, from what I've seen.

I see mosquito noise with fast moving images as well, mainly with OTA signals. It's negligible with sat. tv, and essentially non-existent with blu rays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

What sports programming suffers from image blur? I just don't notice it on my 60hz displays & I consider myself picky. Is it safe to say that many people confuse image blur with mosquito noise?

audio/videoman is offline  
post #25 of 41 Old 01-25-2012, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ouch. There is a glitch after all. There is no audio out and no way to rout video to the tv and audio to the receiver via coax.
audio/videoman is offline  
post #26 of 41 Old 01-25-2012, 09:32 PM
Member
 
Emerick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

What sports programming suffers from image blur? I just don't notice it on my 60hz displays & I consider myself picky. Is it safe to say that many people confuse image blur with mosquito noise?

Wow, I truly envy you. I see motion blur on any fast pans, so a field pass in football, pans across the ice in hockey or the court in basketball, ball being thrown to base in baseball, basically anything with fast pans. The only way I can seem to get past this is with CRTs (obviously), plasmas, and 120hz frame interpolation enabled to a high degree for LCDs (although the inherent sample-and-hold nature of them still leaves some blur).
Emerick99 is offline  
post #27 of 41 Old 01-25-2012, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Why are CRT's better at minimizing motion blur?

I just assumed that I noticed it more because I am now watching a 40" monitor. I had two old crt's of 13" and 20" by comparison.

If anyone has a solution for the lack of audio out, let me know. Or maybe I'm just s out of l.
audio/videoman is offline  
post #28 of 41 Old 01-26-2012, 04:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 3,665
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

Why are CRT's better at minimizing motion blur?

I just assumed that I noticed it more because I am now watching a 40" monitor. I had two old crt's of 13" and 20" by comparison.

If anyone has a solution for the lack of audio out, let me know. Or maybe I'm just s out of l.

CRTs are better because they have much faster response time and the fact that the phosphors decay but the eye/brain persists the image. LCD uses sample and hold so there is no pixel decay.

As for you audio issue, run audio directly to receiver and video to TV. Even on TVs with audio out they will not pass 5.1, they will convert to 2.0 and send to receiver.
primetimeguy is online now  
post #29 of 41 Old 01-26-2012, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
audio/videoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm wondering how to do this or if it's even possible with a signal from a tv antenna.

I'm looking at a photo of the back of a pioneer 1021. There is a coax in. If I hook up my tv antenna to this in, how does the video go out to the tv? Which input would I select for tv audio and video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

CRTs are better because they have much faster response time and the fact that the phosphors decay but the eye/brain persists the image. LCD uses sample and hold so there is no pixel decay.

As for you audio issue, run audio directly to receiver and video to TV. Even on TVs with audio out they will not pass 5.1, they will convert to 2.0 and send to receiver.

audio/videoman is offline  
post #30 of 41 Old 01-26-2012, 08:06 AM
Newbie
 
G_Money_FL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am in the market for a new 55"-65" LED-LCD. But I am having a hard time finding anything better than my calibrated Samsung LNT-4665 for all-around viewing, at least at a reasonable price.
G_Money_FL is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off