2012 Sharp LED Anticipation Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Sharp LED

Not a lot of info on the net about these yet. We did talk in great detail with our Sharp rep though. More info >>> ( Click Here )


Sharp LC-46LE540U
Sharp LC-42LE540U

Sharp LC-52LE640U
Sharp LC-60LE640U
Sharp LC-70LE640U


Sharp LC-60LE745U
Sharp LC-70LE745U

Sharp LC-60LE847u
Sharp LC-70LE847u

Sharp LC-80LE844U

Sharp LC-60LE945u ( Elite HDR chip will be used we are told )
Sharp LC-70LE945u ( Elite HDR chip will be used we are told )

90" unit will release in the summer. More info to come of course
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post #2 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 02:14 PM
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Looking forward to seeing these 2:

Sharp LC-70LE847u

Sharp LC-80LE844U

Haven't figured out which one yet.

Lowell


The MARVELous Home Theater: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...e-theater.html
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post #3 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 02:18 PM
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So in for this. Cleveland can you shed any additional light on the 945? I'm anxiously awaiting this set and its performance credentials.
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post #4 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

I would guess they will be no better than the Elite, as Sharp own Pioneer However, ya never know how close it may be. We will see..

I don't expect it to outperform the 2011 Elite but if the performance is close I may have finally found a set worth justifying the upgrade from my 5080 to a 60 incher.
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post #6 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 03:48 PM
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So I guess the only possibility for an 80" locally dimmed set would be the elite as of now and that stinks they don't have announcments for a 9 series 80" yet.
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post #7 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 04:57 PM
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truly desapointed that sharp is abandonning the 52" and 46" market. Having a 52" with backlit led and local dimming would get my money right away.

it's unfortunate that they don't get not everyone has a huge living room to put in a quality tv.
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post #8 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 05:18 PM
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Chris,

Did they say anything about PQ improvements in the other lines? Or will they be very similar to this year's models.....I'm talking about the replacements for the 632, 732, 734, and 735.

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post #9 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 05:40 PM
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I am happy with my 732, I am happy with my 732, I am happy with my 732, I am happy with my 732, I am happy with my 732, I am happy with my 732, I am happy with my 732, ...

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post #10 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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They will be about the same I am sure, no major advancements unless you are going to get a 945
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post #11 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 08:46 PM
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A few questions - The Sharp 60le845 what will be different if anything from the current 830-835 models?

The Sharp 60le945, any idea where it will be priced? Samsung 8000/Sony 929 territory or more mid level?

Update - For each series/size are the screens matte, semi matter or glossy?
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post #12 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 09:04 PM
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...this one caught my eye. A nice thin bezel can really change the look of an entire television. i'm not looking for 3d or any other effects (still debating 120 vs 240hz value), so the 70-640u might be the target...
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post #13 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

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post #14 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

truly desapointed that sharp is abandonning the 52" and 46" market. Having a 52" with backlit led and local dimming would get my money right away.

it's unfortunate that they don't get not everyone has a huge living room to put in a quality tv.

Sharp loses money making sets of that size. It has nothing to do with "getting it" and everything to do with remaining in business.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #15 of 45 Old 01-22-2012, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Sharp loses money making sets of that size. It has nothing to do with "getting it" and everything to do with remaining in business.

For once. I disagree. I don't believe that's the case at all.
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post #16 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

For once. I disagree. I don't believe that's the case at all.

This is surely the case. Look at the data of TV industry, it is a sea of blood. All due to butchery competition in the standard size segment. Sharp is overall a smaller player so it is impossible it could be profitable there.

In turn Sharp is sovereign in the monster segment, hopefully the business side there is sustainable.

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post #17 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 12:11 PM
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For once. I disagree. I don't believe that's the case at all.

Disagree all you want. They do, in fact, lose money on the smaller sizes. As Irkuck points out, there is no certainty in the bigger sizes, but the differences there are clear.

60" -- Sharp has dominant market share
70" -- Sharp has 100% market share (and will maintain 95%+ for the foreseeable future)
80" -- Sharp has 100% market share
90" -- Sharp will have 100% market share

They are not walking away from smaller TVs because they don't like people with small rooms. They are taking the production facilities that made the smaller sets are re-purposing them to make tablet screens (although rumor suggest they are going to miss out on the first wave of iPad3 production, don't assume that's forever) and things like 80" and 90" displays. Those are made using the capacity that once made 4 40" or 4 46" sets.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #18 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

truly desapointed that sharp is abandonning the 52" and 46" market. Having a 52" with backlit led and local dimming would get my money right away.

it's unfortunate that they don't get not everyone has a huge living room to put in a quality tv.

Well the sony hx909 from a couple years ago fits your bill perfectly, comes in the 52 inch size. You can probably still find them on ebay, amazon, etc. Still an awesome television.
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post #19 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Disagree all you want. They do, in fact, lose money on the smaller sizes. As Irkuck points out, there is no certainty in the bigger sizes, but the differences there are clear.

While I agree that there's a much bigger profit margin on the larger tvs, how would they lose money on the smaller ones? It may not be worth their time for the small profits they would gain, but I would imagine it would be slight profits nonetheless. It doesn't cost much for a company like sharp to produce a 50" tv.
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post #20 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by karlmalone1 View Post

While I agree that there's a much bigger profit margin on the larger tvs, how would they lose money on the smaller ones? It may not be worth their time for the small profits they would gain, but I would imagine it would be slight profits nonetheless. It doesn't cost much for a company like sharp to produce a 50" tv.

I'm thinking what people are saying is in the large screen size market Sharp is nearly the only game in town so any sales to people wanting a 60" or above screen Sharp doesn't have to compete with a ton of different brands and models. As of today I believe you want an 80" screen it's either Sharp LCD, DLP or projector. Now reduce that to 46" and tons of models to choose from and varying prices which makes it much harder to compete.

Now maybe I'm wrong but I thought Sharp still produced panels of various sizes for other brands?
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post #21 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by karlmalone1 View Post

While I agree that there's a much bigger profit margin on the larger tvs, how would they lose money on the smaller ones? It may not be worth their time for the small profits they would gain, but I would imagine it would be slight profits nonetheless. It doesn't cost much for a company like sharp to produce a 50" tv.

So, the mechanism by which they lose money is as follows:

Add up all the costs:

Cogs for a smaller display +
opportunity cost of not making something else +
depreciation / amortization of fab when making the smaller display =

x or true marginal cost of the display

Then they go to wholesale it and it sells for less than X.

Now, even if it's true it sells for more than X (and it isn't; Sharp is flat out non-competitive in smaller sizes vs. LG and Samsung which make so many more panels that they simply can make them cheaper), the reality is they could have built something else and made a greater margin.

It's also true that even if the gross margin is technically greater than zero, that doesn't mean the item is profitable. If the gross margin is, say, 10%, after accounting for corporate overhead, that product is money losing. If instead they made a product with a higher gross margin, it would be profitable, accounting for all costs.

You can read Sharp's financials or ask more pointed questions to people like Specuvestor, but I assure you Sharp is abandoning the segments of the market where it isn't making money. It's not abandoning them out of some disloyalty to customers nor out of some belief it can social-engineer you into buying something bigger. Few of you will buy something bigger and they know this.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #22 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 02:37 PM
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What is interesting to me is that there are 70" edge-lit sets in 2012 on the 8 series, this seems like a departure from the full back lit sets that are on the market now. It seems challenging to make a edge-lit 70", I know the costs and thickness of the set go down with edge-lit sets, but will the quality be the same?

"Sharp’s 8 Series AQUOS Quattron 3D LED TVs in screen size classes of 60-, 70- and 80-inches (LC-60LE847U, LC-70LE847U and LC-80LE844U) offer a sleeker look with a newly designed ultra-slim bezel with a black brushed aluminum finish. The 80-inch class model features full array LED, and the 60- and 70-inch class models are edge-lit LED, all with Quattron Quad Pixel Plus II technology and 240Hz."
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post #23 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 03:16 PM
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Well. If Edge-lit can cure the DSE problems, then it's a great welcome.
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post #24 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 03:40 PM
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Well. If Edge-lit can cure the DSE problems, then it's a great welcome.

Doubtful. Very doubtful.
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post #25 of 45 Old 01-23-2012, 04:13 PM
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Edge-lit will most serve to increase the margins on those sets. If they have solved the uniformity issues that plague edge-lit sets, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Keep in mind, the 2011 70" models (non-Elite) didn't have perfect uniformity either, despite being backlit.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #26 of 45 Old 01-24-2012, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So, the mechanism by which they lose money is as follows:
Add up all the costs:
Cogs for a smaller display +
opportunity cost of not making something else +
depreciation / amortization of fab when making the smaller display =
x or true marginal cost of the display
Then they go to wholesale it and it sells for less than X.
Now, even if it's true it sells for more than X (and it isn't; Sharp is flat out non-competitive in smaller sizes vs. LG and Samsung which make so many more panels that they simply can make them cheaper), the reality is they could have built something else and made a greater margin.
It's also true that even if the gross margin is technically greater than zero, that doesn't mean the item is profitable. If the gross margin is, say, 10%, after accounting for corporate overhead, that product is money losing. If instead they made a product with a higher gross margin, it would be profitable, accounting for all costs.

It is worse than that as it is not based on simple economic calculations like the one above. It is based on the question: how I can keep my market share (=volumes)? This leads to selling below reasonable economics and subsidizing in hope others will die earlier. Sony made losses on TV business for eight ys before giving up. Only those like Samsung and LG survive due to the fact they are integrated conglomerates which start from digging iron ore to make digging machines which dig sand which is used for making silicon and up to the finished product so they can crosssubsidizing and likely have hidden public support.

Sharp is brilliant in the supersized segment but this is small market and so it is not clear it is sustainable. It looks clear though they can run in this segment because they used amortized plants. It would be impossible to include full plant investment in prices to make big displays only.

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post #27 of 45 Old 01-24-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

It is worse than that as it is not based on simple economic calculations like the one above. It is based on the question: how I can keep my market share (=volumes)? This leads to selling below reasonable economics and subsidizing in hope others will die earlier. Sony made losses on TV business for eight ys before giving up.

Sharp is brilliant in the supersized segment but this is small market and so it is not clear it is sustainable. It looks clear though they can run in this segment because they used amortized plants. It would be impossible to include full plant investment in prices to make big displays only.

Keeping market share and Sharp going huge size contradicts one another. Go figure

In the real world, businesses don't close production because it is loss making THIS YEAR. They close because they figured they can never turn profitable in the FUTURE. The HDD market is an interesting study into the dynamics of why even oligopolies lose money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Only those like Samsung and LG survive due to the fact they are integrated conglomerates which start from digging iron ore to make digging machines which dig sand which is used for making silicon and up to the finished product so they can crosssubsidizing and likely have hidden public support.

You need to understand these 2 companies better is all I can say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlmalone1 View Post

While I agree that there's a much bigger profit margin on the larger tvs, how would they lose money on the smaller ones? It may not be worth their time for the small profits they would gain, but I would imagine it would be slight profits nonetheless. It doesn't cost much for a company like sharp to produce a 50" tv.

Sharp is already losing money on their 60" non-quattrons. 60" non quattrons that are sold to 3rd parties will likely phase off in the next 3 years and 8G capacity replaced by iPads and huge size TV. Not sure if 8G will do 4k panels though.

I don't follow Sharp models closely but I suspect the 60" models above are mostly quattron panels.
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post #28 of 45 Old 01-24-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Disagree all you want. They do, in fact, lose money on the smaller sizes. As Irkuck points out, there is no certainty in the bigger sizes, but the differences there are clear.

60" -- Sharp has dominant market share
70" -- Sharp has 100% market share (and will maintain 95%+ for the foreseeable future)
80" -- Sharp has 100% market share
90" -- Sharp will have 100% market share

They are not walking away from smaller TVs because they don't like people with small rooms. They are taking the production facilities that made the smaller sets are re-purposing them to make tablet screens (although rumor suggest they are going to miss out on the first wave of iPad3 production, don't assume that's forever) and things like 80" and 90" displays. Those are made using the capacity that once made 4 40" or 4 46" sets.

A bigger question would be is there enough of a market to make the larger panels profitable enough to sustain a company who is struggling at the more mainstream size market? Does anyone have any real numbers as to the breakdown of the volume of sales for the listed sizes, 40", 47", 50", 55", 60" 65", 70" and 80"? I'm not all that convinced a company can live off of 70" and 80" sales.
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post #29 of 45 Old 01-24-2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

A bigger question would be is there enough of a market to make the larger panels profitable enough to sustain a company who is struggling at the more mainstream size market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Keeping market share and Sharp going huge size contradicts one another. Go figure

Sharp may count only on their 100% market share in the supersized segment. Is this enough to be profitable is difficult to say. From the traditional LCD mass-manufacturing point it is impossible but maybe Sharp made something to make it possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

In the real world, businesses don't close production because it is loss making THIS YEAR. They close because they figured they can never turn profitable in the FUTURE. The HDD market is an interesting study into the dynamics of why even oligopolies lose money.

So Sony took 8 ys of losses before figuring this out.

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post #30 of 45 Old 01-24-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

A bigger question would be is there enough of a market to make the larger panels profitable enough to sustain a company who is struggling at the more mainstream size market? Does anyone have any real numbers as to the breakdown of the volume of sales for the listed sizes, 40", 47", 50", 55", 60" 65", 70" and 80"? I'm not all that convinced a company can live off of 70" and 80" sales.

So far, the 70"+ market represents about 0.1%-0.2% of the total TV market. Very, very approximately (although Sharp told us enough publicly I'm confident the number is correct "enough"), Sharp sold 250K-400K 70"+ TVs last years on a global market of about 240 million sets.

They also dominated in the 60" category, which is much larger overall -- use 10x as large for an approximation with a decently large error margin. It's worth noting that they have absolutely no competition at 70" and relatively little at 60" (there are Panasonics in the market to be sure, but LG and Samsung actually make very, very few 60" panels because -- again -- they are limited to an 8G LCD fab).

It is nearly impossible to justify anyone building a 10G LCD at this point, which puts Sharp in a unique position. They are the only folks who can realistically benefit from any shift toward larger sizes (Panasonic can, too, but is currently limited to 60s and 65s and is in full on retrenchment/schizophrenia mode with their strategy right now). Sharp, instead of price gouging there, is using moderate retail pricing to boost the size of the markets it dominates. It's pretty sound strategy.

Is this a profit-making engine of sufficient size that Sharp can solely exist in TVs up there? I really don't know. But I imagine they can grow their market segment a good 20-40% per year from here (revenue basis) for at least a few years. To be honest, wasting time trying to sell 46" TVs against Samsung would not realistically help them in this endeavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Sharp may count only on their 100% market share in the supersized segment. Is this enough to be profitable is difficult to say. From the traditional LCD mass-manufacturing point it is impossible but maybe Sharp made something to make it possible.

The capacity of Sakai is ~5 million 70" displays (72,000 substrates per month) or ~6.5 million 60". The more of one size, the less of the other. They basically did less than 1/4 of what the plant is capable of last year, according to their own statements about how many displays they shipped.

So the questions are (a) did this make them any money? (b) how much growth do they need -- and how soon -- to make this worthwhile to continue? (c) is there enough demand to take the 70" market up from, say, 300K, to 1 million over the next 3-4 years? Legitimate concerns.
Quote:


So Sony took 8 ys of losses before figuring this out.

I'm not sure they've figured it out yet. They are still focused on wrapping their brand around other people's panels. This has not yielded a profit for a single company in the HD era.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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