240hz LED TVs almost as good as Plasma now? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 02-23-2012, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Are today's 2012 LED TVs like Samsungs 960CMR sets or other 240hz LED tvs as good as today's plasma regarding fast paced motion for things like sports?

My room where my family and I watch tv is quite bright and although I do still enjoy my Samsung 720p 50" plasma it seems quite dim in comparison to today's LED tvs.
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post #2 of 73 Old 02-23-2012, 12:47 PM
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Plasma will likely always have a dim or dull picture compared to LEDs. Plasmas have a great picture overall they just dont have the brightness of LEDS.

For the motion side, that will likely always be Plasma. LEDs which r LCDs have come along way since they first came out but some believe they cant fix all the motion problems. OLEDs are said to fix alot of things but we'll have to wait a year till we see what they can really do.

Samsungs CMR(clear motion rate) is not the same as the hertz. Clear motion rate just takes the hertz, resolution and other settings into account and gives you the best overall PQ possible. Sony has the samething called Motionflow. All manufacturers have some kind of motion capability.
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post #3 of 73 Old 02-23-2012, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

Plasma will likely always have a dim or dull picture compared to LEDs. Plasmas have a great picture overall they just dont have the brightness of LEDS.

For the motion side, that will likely always be Plasma. LEDs which r LCDs have come along way since they first came out but some believe they cant fix all the motion problems. OLEDs are said to fix alot of things but we'll have to wait a year till we see what they can really do.

Samsungs CMR(clear motion rate) is not the same as the hertz. Clear motion rate just takes the hertz, resolution and other settings into account and gives you the best overall PQ possible. Sony has the samething called Motionflow. All manufacturers have some kind of motion capability.

Thanks for answering so quickly. I imagine the OLED sets though will be quite pricey when they first come out. I was hoping to get a good 240hz 60" LED tv around just under $3000 that be better than my old 2008 720p Samsung 50" plasma.
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post #4 of 73 Old 02-23-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

Plasma will likely always have a dim or dull picture compared to LEDs. Plasmas have a great picture overall they just dont have the brightness of LEDS.

Fortunately, must plasma buyers don't buy an LCD to set next to the plasma and once they install it at home, they don't find the picture dim or dull at all.

No offense intended Texas, but your statement is needlessly provocative.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #5 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 05:51 AM
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Every platform has its strengths. I have had DLP, plasma and now LED. DLP has no blurring whatsoever but lacks decent blacks and has rainbow issues. Plasma has best off angle viewing and not as much blur and not as bright as LED in bright rooms. In darker rooms, probably the best. LED is brighter, only ones that come in 70 and 80 inch, but has viewing angle problems and can have clouding and flashlighting problems.

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post #6 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 06:28 AM
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My PDP is plenty bright for everything cept 3D.
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post #7 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 06:39 AM
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Plasma TV's still have the better picture quality and more life-like motion. LCD's seem too artificial. I'm not one to chase perfect reproduction, but viewing fast motion on any LCD always distracts me.

For people who think Plasma's are dull or useless in the daytime, perhaps you should invest in some mini-blinds or curtains.
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post #8 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 06:43 AM
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I have a 65hx929 local dimming led and much prefer the image to my panasonic plasma. LCD/led displays have come a long way in the last few years especially those with local dimming. If you asked me a few years ago if I would of considered a LCD/led the answer would of been no.
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post #9 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassLake View Post

And there's a lot of people that would agree that the Panasonic ST30 is next to useless during the day.

Who are these people exactly?

I have a 6-year-old plasma and while I find it a bit frustrating in the daytime, it's far from "useless".

All the modern sets have filters that would make mine cry.

This is such a freaking canard.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Who are these people exactly?

I have a 6-year-old plasma and while I find it a bit frustrating in the daytime, it's far from "useless".

All the modern sets have filters that would make mine cry.

This is such a freaking canard.

I always love the term "lots of people" being used with no basis. I also would like to hear from this group of "lots of people" and their inability to watch their ST30 during the day.
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post #11 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Fortunately, must plasma buyers don't buy an LCD to set next to the plasma and once they install it at home, they don't find the picture dim or dull at all.

No offense intended Texas, but your statement is needlessly provocative.

My statement is a fact, nothing more. Its true that plasmas have a dim or dull picture compared to LCDs. The OP asked a question and it was anwsered, nothing more. Commenting on me wont help the OP any.
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post #12 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 03:25 PM
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The Panasonic ST30 is a very good tv. Yes its not as bright as LCD but has a very good PQ. Also it's motion will be far better than most LCDs. Plasmas r just better at motion. Things may change in the future, only time will tell.
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post #13 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 03:28 PM
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I took delivery of my (first) LED set on 1/20/12.
I returned it because of clouding.
I took deliver of my (second) LED set on 2/22/12.
I returned it because of clouding.
I placed my order for a 65" Panasonic VT Plasma 2/24/12.
I know I won't be returning it because of clouding.
Can't wait!

Clouding on the LED sets is very distracting (to me). Some people say, when do you look at a black screen? Well, most movies start and end with some type of credits. It was always visible. I think since I will be watching in a darkened room (+1 for Blinds), the Plasma will work out for me. Hope so!

Need. More. Bass.
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post #14 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jra2k1 View Post

My room where my family and I watch tv is quite bright and although I do still enjoy my Samsung 720p 50" plasma it seems quite dim in comparison to today's LED tvs.

I remember I was so worried about Motion blur when I bought my 60 Hz LED Sony last year. In the store it was side by side with a 120 Hz LED Samsung and I was watching a baseball game. I could not see a difference between the two when a pitch be delivered, so I bought the Sony for the matte Screen. Samsung was too glossy and that would bother me in our bright living room. BTW, nothing but compliments on the Sony during our Super bowl party but most were impressed with the thinness of the LED.

Good luck with your purchase.
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post #15 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

My statement is a fact, nothing more. Its true that plasmas have a dim or dull picture compared to LCDs. The OP asked a question and it was anwsered, nothing more. Commenting on me wont help the OP any.

Your statement is an opinion, nothing more.

Plasmas objectively calibrate to levels in excess of THX/ISF recommended levels of brightness. That's a fact.

"Plasmas are dull" is an opinion.

What you did doesn't help. What I did actually does help.

It's absolutely true that LCDs generally get brighter than plasmas. That's true.

It's also true, however, that (a) the brightest setting on most LCDs is brighter than serves any purpose; no one runs their TV that bright because honestly it's painful (b) when two TVs are next to each other and one is brighter, that's apparent but when you take away the bright one, it's often not the case that the "dimmer" one looks dull (c) given the factual truth in "b", most people that bring home plasmas don't find them dull without a store-set LCD next to them.

I have no idea what the original poster's set's vintage is or how much brighter a current set is. But given it's a 720p set, it's not that new. And newer sets tend to have much better ambient filters. And much better ambient filters mean that newer plasmas look much better in brighter rooms. A VT30 might not be exceptionally brighter than my much, much older Panasonic (I'm sure it's brighter, no idea how much), but it looks a ton better in a lit room thanks to the filters. I mean, it's just not even close.

When you describe plasmas as dim and dull, you're just expressing an opinion and one that, quite frankly, isn't even valid. Most plasmas, once calibrated, will be as bright as LCDs (with the caveat that brightness limiters might affect some content). Even the daytime-viewing scenarios are no longer cut and dried given the much better filters on plasmas and the much more reflective glossy screens on current LCDs. That said, if I was primarily buying a TV for daytime viewing, I'd probably lean toward an LCD -- at least until I see the VT50 Panasonic in action.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #16 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 05:58 PM
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I'd prefer a CRT myself but alas, those are LONG GONE in the consumer market. LED have issues with being able to reproduce the entire true color pallette, plasma has issues with bright lighting, OLED has issues with longevity, CTR has issues with geometry and blooming. point is each technology has issues and strenghts

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post #17 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Your statement is an opinion, nothing more.

Plasmas objectively calibrate to levels in excess of THX/ISF recommended levels of brightness. That's a fact.

"Plasmas are dull" is an opinion.

What you did doesn't help. What I did actually does help.

It's absolutely true that LCDs generally get brighter than plasmas. That's true.

It's also true, however, that (a) the brightest setting on most LCDs is brighter than serves any purpose; no one runs their TV that bright because honestly it's painful (b) when two TVs are next to each other and one is brighter, that's apparent but when you take away the bright one, it's often not the case that the "dimmer" one looks dull (c) given the factual truth in "b", most people that bring home plasmas don't find them dull without a store-set LCD next to them.

I have no idea what the original poster's set's vintage is or how much brighter a current set is. But given it's a 720p set, it's not that new. And newer sets tend to have much better ambient filters. And much better ambient filters mean that newer plasmas look much better in brighter rooms. A VT30 might not be exceptionally brighter than my much, much older Panasonic (I'm sure it's brighter, no idea how much), but it looks a ton better in a lit room thanks to the filters. I mean, it's just not even close.

When you describe plasmas as dim and dull, you're just expressing an opinion and one that, quite frankly, isn't even valid. Most plasmas, once calibrated, will be as bright as LCDs (with the caveat that brightness limiters might affect some content). Even the daytime-viewing scenarios are no longer cut and dried given the much better filters on plasmas and the much more reflective glossy screens on current LCDs. That said, if I was primarily buying a TV for daytime viewing, I'd probably lean toward an LCD -- at least until I see the VT50 Panasonic in action.

Its a fact. You can also look at some tv reviews and you see they use the same words. Its a fact cause not only can I see it but so do most. Even the manufacturers have said it and I have spoken to most of them and they even acknowledge it.

I also own a Plasma and a LED/LCD and CCFL/LCD. Both r brighter than my plasma. I never said anything about calibration as that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Any tv can be calibrated and it may look better or it may not. That depends on the owner of the tv and who is actually calibrating the tv. My plasma has a great PQ just not as bright. Also the motion is smoother on my plasma.
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post #18 of 73 Old 02-24-2012, 06:08 PM
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Same can be said with local-dimming LEDs vs. that of edge-lit LEDs. Sure, Edge-lit is cheaper, but...so is the overall consistency of the accurate brightness throughout the set. Although it has yet to be seen if locally dimmed LEDs will actually lead to better picture quality than either plasma or edge lit. Although I am a little tempted by the TL515Us from Toshiba, considering that those are locally dimmed AND 240Hz, with 3D capabilities. Wonder how well that would stack up vs. that of a 3D plasma in the 42" range.

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post #19 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and opinions. My Samsung is the pn50A450 720P set which cost me about $900 back in 2009. I think it was 2008 model.

The color is wonderful on my set but I was want something with a brighter picture and better video processor. I do like the crispness that LED tvs seem to have in my opinion but the color reproduction of the plasmas is quite amazing. I'm not super picky in terms of picture quality but some the newer sets whether it be LED or Plasmas that I have seen at the store look better compared to mine. However its hard to really determine whether or not it would be that much better unless I place my TV beside another one.

As I mention I do watch a fair bit of sports like hockey and football and during the day the sunlight in the room can make the picture look dim as my eyes are compensating. By no means it the picture unwatchable but it be nice for a better viewing experience.

I'm still on the fence whether to go LED or plasma still but the insight here certainly helps. Thanks again everyone!

Cheers!
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post #20 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8IronBob View Post

Although it has yet to be seen if locally dimmed LEDs will actually lead to better picture quality than either plasma or edge lit.

Sharp Elite.

Also local dimming LEDs will give better blacks and no clouding compared to edge lit displays which is why you will have to pay a premium over edge lit models.
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post #21 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

Its a fact. You can also look at some tv reviews and you see they use the same words. Its a fact cause not only can I see it but so do most. Even the manufacturers have said it and I have spoken to most of them and they even acknowledge it.

I also own a Plasma and a LED/LCD and CCFL/LCD. Both r brighter than my plasma. I never said anything about calibration as that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Any tv can be calibrated and it may look better or it may not. That depends on the owner of the tv and who is actually calibrating the tv. My plasma has a great PQ just not as bright. Also the motion is smoother on my plasma.

The use of the word "dull" in your original statement made your entire post seem like your personal opinion of the performance of Plasma vs LED/LCD.

I have a dark viewing area and my eyes are very sensitive to bright lights. I get eye strain headaches from LCD TV's, due to their brighter pictures. But me saying "LED/LCD TV's will likely always have a painfully bright picture compared to Plasmas." would be equally fact-less as your statement.
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post #22 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 12:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

Plasma will likely always have a dim or dull picture compared to LEDs. Plasmas have a great picture overall they just dont have the brightness of LEDS.

Do not know what plasma sets you have been looking at, but I know that mine is better than any LED LCD set out there. Now for granted, OLED sets are finally catching up to Plasma sets.
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post #23 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Razor Time View Post

Sharp Elite.

Also local dimming LEDs will give better blacks and no clouding compared to edge lit displays which is why you will have to pay a premium over edge lit models.

LOL. Yeah, now all I need is to win a few scratch-off lottery tickets from the gas station down the corner, then maybe, just maybe, this might be in the cards for me.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

My statement is a fact, nothing more. Its true that plasmas have a dim or dull picture compared to LCDs. The OP asked a question and it was anwsered, nothing more. Commenting on me wont help the OP any.

Then show everyone written proof. So far, it is just a matter of your opinion over everyone else's.
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post #25 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 8IronBob View Post


LOL. Yeah, now all I need is to win a few scratch-off lottery tickets from the gas station down the corner, then maybe, just maybe, this might be in the cards for me.

If you win don't forget to grab me a 70".
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post #26 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Do not know what plasma sets you have been looking at, but I know that mine is better than any LED set out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Then show everyone written proof. So far, it is just a matter of your opinion over everyone else's.

Umm, hello kettle, this is the pot calling.
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post #27 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 01:11 PM
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If you win don't forget to grab me a 70".

why go 70" ???
tell him to get you an 80 "

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post #28 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 01:15 PM
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Any pro-calibrated TV looks kind of dull. The thing with plasma is that it looks dull right out the box
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post #29 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasrattler View Post

Its a fact. You can also look at some tv reviews and you see they use the same words. Its a fact cause not only can I see it but so do most. Even the manufacturers have said it and I have spoken to most of them and they even acknowledge it.

It's an opinion. I'm not sure where you got your "edge-u-ma-cation", but "it looks dim and dull" is not a factual statement". No manufacturer of plasmas has said they look "dim and dull".
Quote:


I also own a Plasma and a LED/LCD and CCFL/LCD. Both r brighter than my plasma. I never said anything about calibration as that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Any tv can be calibrated and it may look better or it may not. That depends on the owner of the tv and who is actually calibrating the tv. My plasma has a great PQ just not as bright. Also the motion is smoother on my plasma.

Again, once calibrated, a plasma can output ~40 foot-lamberts. Anyone who runs their TV much higher than that is either suffering from some sort of visual disorder or is probably developing one. (This comments applies to low/medium room light situations. In very bright room light, most plasmas would have to use a less-accurate "Vivid" mode to reach the upper 40s, but they could.)

So not only do you keep stating an opinion as fact; you keep stating an opinion that is demonstrably meaningless as fact.

EDIT: Other people made great points in this thread. Consider this comment an acknowledgement of all of them.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #30 of 73 Old 02-26-2012, 01:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by topr View Post

Umm, hello kettle, this is the pot calling.

Clarify, because I sure do not see a stove around here, nor do I see any pots or kettle's. Maybe next time read the whole thread, especially what the OP that I partially quoted stated first. Nor did you even read the last part that I stated.
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