Official Samsung UNxxES8000 Owner's Thread - Page 514 - AVS Forum
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post #15391 of 16206 Old 06-03-2013, 07:25 AM
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Another pattern to check out in the AVS709 disc is the color clipping pattern. That will show you pretty easily that setting contrast too high in standard mode will cause your colors to clip.
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post #15392 of 16206 Old 06-03-2013, 09:53 AM
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I need to purchase a main board for my UN60ES8000. I do not live in the US, so I cannot take the TV to a service center. Does anyone know of someone who can source these parts?

Part: ASSY PCB MAIN 60 ES8000
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post #15393 of 16206 Old 06-03-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by skirope View Post

I need to purchase a main board for my UN60ES8000. I do not live in the US, so I cannot take the TV to a service center. Does anyone know of someone who can source these parts?

Part: ASSY PCB MAIN 60 ES8000
Did you check Samsungparts.com
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post #15394 of 16206 Old 06-03-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by skirope View Post

I need to purchase a main board for my UN60ES8000. I do not live in the US, so I cannot take the TV to a service center. Does anyone know of someone who can source these parts?

Part: ASSY PCB MAIN 60 ES8000

Try http://www.shopjimmy.com/samsung. I have no experience with them but they seem to have very good prices.
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post #15395 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Another pattern to check out in the AVS709 disc is the color clipping pattern. That will show you pretty easily that setting contrast too high in standard mode will cause your colors to clip.
Is there anything wrong with lowering the color level down to somewhere around 40-45 from the usually 50? I am coming from a Panny ST60 and I like the natural, more real life colors that plasma's are known to have. I just couldn't deal with the IR that TV was giving me.....

So does lowering that effect anything else. Would I be doing more damage then good but trying to mute the colors a little bit using that method?
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post #15396 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 06:28 AM
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For the ES8000, if you have a meter you should set color at 50 and use the CMS controls to adjust each individual color. If you don't have a meter, set color space to "Auto", and that will get you mostly there. I guess you can adjust down the color setting to your liking but it will be impossible to get a measurably correct picture without a meter.

For what it's worth, at default movie mode settings, color 50, and color space set to Auto, the colors are actually pretty accurate. I know one of us posted readings on that a while back. Standard mode isnt as accurate out of the box unfortunately.

If you read the "Kals guide to calibration" link linked in my signature below you can get a more technical description of what the color control does. IMHO, if you are already this interested in getting a good picture out of the TV you should invest in a cheap meter like the colormunki display, or pay someone to do it for you. The difference from out of the box to calibrated settings is astonishing.
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post #15397 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

For the ES8000, if you have a meter you should set color at 50 and use the CMS controls to adjust each individual color. If you don't have a meter, set color space to "Auto", and that will get you mostly there. I guess you can adjust down the color setting to your liking but it will be impossible to get a measurably correct picture without a meter.

For what it's worth, at default movie mode settings, color 50, and color space set to Auto, the colors are actually pretty accurate. I know one of us posted readings on that a while back. Standard mode isnt as accurate out of the box unfortunately.

If you read the "Kals guide to calibration" link linked in my signature below you can get a more technical description of what the color control does. IMHO, if you are already this interested in getting a good picture out of the TV you should invest in a cheap meter like the colormunki display, or pay someone to do it for you. The difference from out of the box to calibrated settings is astonishing.
If I spend $1 more on something related to my TV I am going to be changing my married status to divorced. lol

In Movie mode while the clouding is not bad at all it is there and I can see it on full black screens in the dark. I just cannot watch the TV like that. Especially after owning a plasma.

In standard mode I get great screen uniformity so prefer to use that mode full time becasue there is nothing better then looking at a black screen in the dark that is actually black.
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post #15398 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 06:59 AM
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Yea I know the feeling smile.gif

If you have a 55" try out the standard mode settings I posted, that might get you close. I'm an ex-Panasonic plasma owner as well so I know what you are talking about re: the colors on plasma. I'm happy with where I got to in Standard mode. One nice thing is that the es8000 gets so much brighter than my plasma ever could, which is really nice for daytime TV.
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post #15399 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Yea I know the feeling smile.gif

If you have a 55" try out the standard mode settings I posted, that might get you close. I'm an ex-Panasonic plasma owner as well so I know what you are talking about re: the colors on plasma. I'm happy with where I got to in Standard mode. One nice thing is that the es8000 gets so much brighter than my plasma ever could, which is really nice for daytime TV.
I actually have a 60es7500 but there is like nothing around on this model so I have been looking at es8000 settings.

I did try your standard settings but it seems to have a heavy red push on my TV. What I currently have is settings that Nitra had posted and I made some changes to them that I think look good on my TV but who knows what an actual meter might tell me and if I am actually doing worse for my picture then better. To my eye, it seems to look really good though. My settings I am running are below. Would love if other people could try them out and see what they think or even put a meter on it....

10k, you have been wonderful in this thread!

Picture Standard
Backlight 7, eco set to 3
Contrast 99
Brightness 43
Sharpness 10
Color 40
Tint G50/R50
Screen Adjustment Screen Fit
Advanced Settings
Dynamic contrast Off
Black Tone Off
Flesh tone 0
RGB mode off
Color Space Custom
Red: 43,0,0
Green: 0,53,0
Blue: 0,0,59
Yellow: 52,52,0
Cyan: 0,51,51
Magenta: 45,0,50
White Balance: on
R-Offset: 27
G-Offset: 25
B-Offset: 24
R-Gain: 5
G-Gain: 25
B-Gain: 20
Gamma -1
Expert pattern off
xvYCC off
Motion lighting off
Black enhancer off
Picture Options
Color tone Warm 2
Digital Noise Filter off
MPEG Noise Filter off
Auto Motion Plus clear
LED motion plus Off
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post #15400 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

For the ES8000, if you have a meter you should set color at 50 and use the CMS controls to adjust each individual color. If you don't have a meter, set color space to "Auto", and that will get you mostly there. I guess you can adjust down the color setting to your liking but it will be impossible to get a measurably correct picture without a meter.

For what it's worth, at default movie mode settings, color 50, and color space set to Auto, the colors are actually pretty accurate. I know one of us posted readings on that a while back. Standard mode isnt as accurate out of the box unfortunately.

If you read the "Kals guide to calibration" link linked in my signature below you can get a more technical description of what the color control does. IMHO, if you are already this interested in getting a good picture out of the TV you should invest in a cheap meter like the colormunki display, or pay someone to do it for you. The difference from out of the box to calibrated settings is astonishing.

Here, here - - for "Auto" settings in "Movie." I have the 65" ES8000 and have been very happy with the "out of the box" colors using "Auto" as 10K has suggested. (Yeoman work, by the way, 10K)

And if you really want to get that extra five to ten per cent out of your TV - - you'll have to have a reputable calibrator look at your TV or buy the meter and learn it yourself - - again, the best advice IMHO. You can try other folks settings and you can get good results but not optimal - - that's with a meter and proper calibration.

Lastly - - I'm not sure why the complaints about "clouding" in "Movie" mode as on my picture, it's only seen when you have a completely dark screen (really in transition - - a totally dark screen doesn't show any clouding for me - - not while viewing the picture).

Oh - - for colors, you can't beat the Darbee Darblet. if you looking for bright colors, really vivid - - luminance - - the Darblet gets you there. OK - - I'm not a purist but I do like the Darblet effect and it really puts the pop in the colors.

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
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post #15401 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post

Here, here - - for "Auto" settings in "Movie." I have the 65" ES8000 and have been very happy with the "out of the box" colors using "Auto" as 10K has suggested. (Yeoman work, by the way, 10K)

And if you really want to get that extra five to ten per cent out of your TV - - you'll have to have a reputable calibrator look at your TV or buy the meter and learn it yourself - - again, the best advice IMHO. You can try other folks settings and you can get good results but not optimal - - that's with a meter and proper calibration.

Lastly - - I'm not sure why the complaints about "clouding" in "Movie" mode as on my picture, it's only seen when you have a completely dark screen (really in transition - - a totally dark screen doesn't show any clouding for me - - not while viewing the picture).

Oh - - for colors, you can't beat the Darbee Darblet. if you looking for bright colors, really vivid - - luminance - - the Darblet gets you there. OK - - I'm not a purist but I do like the Darblet effect and it really puts the pop in the colors.
The clouding just erks me even though it doesn't effect the actual picture. Just seeing it on a black screen makes me cringe. Lol

For colors, I was actually looking to tone it down or give it a more theater like appearance.
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post #15402 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

The clouding just erks me even though it doesn't effect the actual picture. Just seeing it on a black screen makes me cringe. Lol

For colors, I was actually looking to tone it down or give it a more theater like appearance.
Try turning down the backlight instead of the color setting. That might get an overall better effect.
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post #15403 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Try turning down the backlight instead of the color setting. That might get an overall better effect.
I keep it down pretty low. 2-3 in the dark. You can't see any of it in the light and it really only shows in the dark in movie mode while on a black screen. You cannot see it when a picture is up.

It really isn't bad at all but just knowing it is there is enough to keep me in standard mode and helps me stop looking for it. Micro dimming is a feature I paid and should be able to use it in all modes!
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post #15404 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 12:41 PM
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Personally I can't see how anybody can watch anything with the backlight on 2 or 3. That's way too dark, regardless of settings, in my opinion. Movie theatres are dark too but they don't turn the projector light down to the equivalent of 2 - they project a nice, bright image. Just because a room is dark doesn't mean that the screen should be dim.
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post #15405 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Personally I can't see how anybody can watch anything with the backlight on 2 or 3. That's way too dark, regardless of settings, in my opinion. Movie theatres are dark too but they don't turn the projector light down to the equivalent of 2 - they project a nice, bright image. Just because a room is dark doesn't mean that the screen should be dim.
In a totally dark room with the backlight on 3 in standard mode it is more then bright enough. It is not dim at all.....Try it tonight with lights out. You might be surprised. Anything to bright just hurts the eyes.

You might also be surprised how much better the picture looks.
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post #15406 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

The clouding just erks me even though it doesn't effect the actual picture. Just seeing it on a black screen makes me cringe. Lol

For colors, I was actually looking to tone it down or give it a more theater like appearance.

Oh - - more theater like. You mean grainy and not clear? smile.gif

Just kidding - - I haven't been to a movie theater in eight years ever since I began my home theater project. And, adding a 100" Diagonal screen with a BenQ projector pretty much ensures that I won't be going to any movies in the future.

My girlfriend says, "What's the point?" Why fight the crowds, seats and concession prices when you can watch at home? I agree with her - - but I know a lot of folks still like the theater experience.

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
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post #15407 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Try turning down the backlight instead of the color setting. That might get an overall better effect.
So I just changed my color space to your standard settings but kept everything else the same and it looks great. The colors look deep and saturated. After putting your settings into custom and then changing back to auto to see the difference, auto really looks washed out and un-saturated.

I do not think I am getting a negative effect from running my contrast at 99. I put up a grey scale and did not see any other colors. It went from dark to light unless I just don't know what I am looking for. lol

Maybe the 7500 acts different then the 8000.
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post #15408 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 05:45 PM
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ahhh, the movie theater. i just saw the new Star Trek at what is considered a better theater. I observed it all from our POV. All i can say is our 8000 delivers a superior viewing experience.
-better blacks
-bettet colors
-corner to corner sharper
-brighter and more vivid without melting the face... wink.gif

Still on Movie mode as the pros still outweigh the cons for me.

You guys are all awesome still by the way.

Regarding the EVO, i still see no compelling data that even tempts me to update the FW and plug it in yet.

I do appreciate you beta testers.

Love for all things Hi-def...Losing count; 200 plus bluray, 500 plus dvd, 30 plus HDdvd and a rapidly growing 50 plus in the cloud.

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post #15409 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

In a totally dark room with the backlight on 3 in standard mode it is more then bright enough. It is not dim at all.....Try it tonight with lights out. You might be surprised. Anything to bright just hurts the eyes..
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

I do not think I am getting a negative effect from running my contrast at 99. I put up a grey scale and did not see any other colors. It went from dark to light unless I just don't know what I am looking for. lol
.

hello Eric,
I have more or less the same experience, but did also measurements to back it up. (see link in my signature).
My calibration is for a peak output of 120cd/m2, which is used by many review sites as a standard for a dark or semidark room. I achieved this with a combination of backlight5-contrast100 for Movie mode, and backlight2-contrast80 for Standard.
So if you are using backlight3-contrast99 on Standard mode, that would be quite good for a dark/semidark room.

When you use contrast99 in Standard, you would get clipping at 100% peak, but probably not at 90% greyscale. The contrast setting basically increases the gain from the signal, and at some high level it is running out of steam, and it starts clipping. If you want to check, put up 100 peak white, and see if changing the contrast has an influence on the colour.
With a contrast setting of 80, I just avoided clipping. But a higher contrast with clipping is not necessarily bad. I saw one review from David Mackenzie from hdtvtest, where he deliberately increased contrast setting on an LG to increase contrast ratio, despite having some clipping. As long as clipping is mild at 100% peak, you benefit from increased contrast ratio, and then a lower backlight can be used which reduces clouding visibility. I think user mavinow used that trick.

Actually, clouding is a problem for me as well. But I hate crushed blacks even more, which you get with the dimming in Standard mode.
Because of this, I prefer Movie mode with maxed out contrast and white balance gain. Despite that maxing out, no clipping. I wish Samsung would use a higher gain in Movie mode which would increase contrast ratio, even if it would cause some mild clipping. Because in Movie mode, you can reduce crushed blacks by making a BT1886 gamma with the 10p white balance.
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post #15410 of 16206 Old 06-04-2013, 09:00 PM
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Thanks for that explanation turbo!
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post #15411 of 16206 Old 06-05-2013, 11:16 AM
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Turboman - great to see your post!

I have the 65" ES8000 and even though I'm in a light controlled room - - I keep the lights on for most viewing, except for 3D and I haven't done much of that lately.

I'm in "Movie" mode with "Auto" color settings but my backlight is at 10 - - I tried lowering it, but it just isn't bright enough for me. My "Contrast" is at 90 - - brightness at 45. I get great blacks without the "crush" in "Standard." And this is coming from a guy that was exclusively in "Standard" mode for the first nine months of my TV viewing.

Maybe the 65" sets are different than the 60" or 55" displays - - because I could never get to a backlight of 3 - - the lights on my receiver and Directv sat box are brighter than that. (I can turn them off - - but they are located in a rack to the right of my TV.) Personal preference, I guess. (Plus I have the Darbee Darblet - - so not total "apples to apples" comparison.)

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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post #15412 of 16206 Old 06-05-2013, 01:44 PM
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Ok. This might be a little off topic from what you all are talking about. I'm trying to figure out a feature that I found reference to these model TV's having but now scouring the internet, I can't find it. The google results still pull up the page that listed the option, but the option is not there anymore. Specifically, I'm talking about the 'no signal standby' option. Someone in the past mentioned that feature on the thread, but in reference to the instructions I think. Can anyone confirm that this feature is available on this TV.

I'm presuming this acts like stanby on a computer monitor, which is basically the point of what I want to accomplish. So if there's no signal from the PC, it should go into a standby mode that shuts the display down. I wish to put this TV in a conference room so that would be a primary function. Anyone know if this works?

~Robert
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post #15413 of 16206 Old 06-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Turboman, nice post. It's funny, I just checked my standard mode calibrated settings against yours and it looks like we basically ended up in nearly the exact same place! Only difference is I was messing w/ green gain so your higher contrast setting is represented in my white balance gains.

Looks like I should have just saved myself loads of time and used your settings from the get go!

Cheers
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post #15414 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

In a totally dark room with the backlight on 3 in standard mode it is more then bright enough. It is not dim at all.....Try it tonight with lights out. You might be surprised. Anything to bright just hurts the eyes.

You might also be surprised how much better the picture looks.

It's not like I haven't played around with all the different settings. I've certainly gone straight across the backlight scale at night, from 0 to 20, just to see how it looks. 2-3 to my eyes is as dark as 19-20 is bright. I just can't see how 2-3 can deliver any approximation of how the video was intended to look. Whites on 2-3 backlight (at night) looks poor, and this is with my set adjusted using the AVS and WOW discs. Now, I'm on the F8000 now, but last year I owned the ES7500, and the backlight brightness is pretty much the same as last year - I played with the backlight settings a ton last year, and I just can't see how 2-3 can provide enough illumination for the colors to look right. Everything looks muddy.
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post #15415 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by turboman123 View Post


When you use contrast99 in Standard, you would get clipping at 100% peak, but probably not at 90% greyscale. The contrast setting basically increases the gain from the signal, and at some high level it is running out of steam, and it starts clipping. If you want to check, put up 100 peak white, and see if changing the contrast has an influence on the colour.
With a contrast setting of 80, I just avoided clipping. But a higher contrast with clipping is not necessarily bad. I saw one review from David Mackenzie from hdtvtest, where he deliberately increased contrast setting on an LG to increase contrast ratio, despite having some clipping. As long as clipping is mild at 100% peak, you benefit from increased contrast ratio, and then a lower backlight can be used which reduces clouding visibility. I think user mavinow used that trick.

People put too much into these test patterns. How many posts are on here where somebody is talking about how they had to lower their contrast to like 60 or something ridiculous to avoid clipping? They don't understand how it really works and so that pattern is freaking them out. It's like these people who get their graphics card to run at 150 fps on a game when the human eye can't see the extra frames.

Even in standard mode at 100 you are barely beginning to clip highlights. Higher contrast in Standard does affect color and grayscale, but that isn't clipping white. If you were truly clipping white at more important levels, you would know it. The picture would be near unwatchable in brighter scenes.
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post #15416 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RaylanGivens1 View Post

People put too much into these test patterns. How many posts are on here where somebody is talking about how they had to lower their contrast to like 60 or something ridiculous to avoid clipping? They don't understand how it really works and so that pattern is freaking them out. It's like these people who get their graphics card to run at 150 fps on a game when the human eye can't see the extra frames.

Even in standard mode at 100 you are barely beginning to clip highlights. Higher contrast in Standard does affect color and grayscale, but that isn't clipping white. If you were truly clipping white at more important levels, you would know it. The picture would be near unwatchable in brighter scenes.
You make a good point. I would rather have better contrast and risk some clipping that I would not notice anyway, then not have any clipping at the expense of better contrast.
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post #15417 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RaylanGivens1 View Post

People put too much into these test patterns. How many posts are on here where somebody is talking about how they had to lower their contrast to like 60 or something ridiculous to avoid clipping? They don't understand how it really works and so that pattern is freaking them out. It's like these people who get their graphics card to run at 150 fps on a game when the human eye can't see the extra frames.

Even in standard mode at 100 you are barely beginning to clip highlights. Higher contrast in Standard does affect color and grayscale, but that isn't clipping white. If you were truly clipping white at more important levels, you would know it. The picture would be near unwatchable in brighter scenes.
Here's the difference between my calibrated settings without any RGB clipping in white (contrast=72) and the same settings with contrast=100. Extreme example perhaps, but clipping is definitely noticeable, not only in lost detail but also strange color balance. No idea why my iphone created so much moire in taking those pics....


:edit: I took these pics from my HTPC which is set up for HDMI 0-255RGB which means that WTW information has been clipped, in case anyone was thinking that all is being lost is WTW information, the picture on the left is all "rgb legal" levels.
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post #15418 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Here's the difference between my calibrated settings without any RGB clipping in white (contrast=72) and the same settings with contrast=100. Extreme example perhaps, but clipping is definitely noticeable, not only in lost detail but also strange color balance. No idea why my iphone created so much moire in taking those pics....

:edit: I took these pics from my HTPC which is set up for HDMI 0-255RGB which means that WTW information has been clipped, in case anyone was thinking that all is being lost is WTW information, the picture on the left is all "rgb legal" levels.

Exactly! Before I got my meter I always complained about what I called "blown-out" whites. It was especially noticeable watching football where one of the teams wore a white jersey. There was never any detail in the jerseys and it just looked very over-blown. It wasn't until after I get the meter and was able to correctly set my gray scale that I was able to get rid of that. It's not a myth or something that's made up. This is extremely noticeable during normal viewing just as your picture on the right shows. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.
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post #15419 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Is there anything wrong with lowering the color level down to somewhere around 40-45 from the usually 50? I am coming from a Panny ST60 and I like the natural, more real life colors that plasma's are known to have. I just couldn't deal with the IR that TV was giving me.....

So does lowering that effect anything else. Would I be doing more damage then good but trying to mute the colors a little bit using that method?

I do precisely that with my F8000. I find that 49-50 is way too saturated for my liking for most content - especially on my FiOS cahnnels and many blu-rays that have very over-exaggerated colors when they are "remastered" with "enhanced" color-timing. I see no harm to my test patterns on the AVS and WOW discs - the colors are just a bit dialed back.
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post #15420 of 16206 Old 06-06-2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RaylanGivens1 View Post

People put too much into these test patterns. How many posts are on here where somebody is talking about how they had to lower their contrast to like 60 or something ridiculous to avoid clipping? They don't understand how it really works and so that pattern is freaking them out. It's like these people who get their graphics card to run at 150 fps on a game when the human eye can't see the extra frames.

Even in standard mode at 100 you are barely beginning to clip highlights. Higher contrast in Standard does affect color and grayscale, but that isn't clipping white. If you were truly clipping white at more important levels, you would know it. The picture would be near unwatchable in brighter scenes.

I can say from experience that some of the auto-adjustments like Dynamic Contrast (and SMART LED in the F8000) can certainly clip whites noticeably at times if you're not careful. I have seen the white clipping myself watching old Three's Company DVDS - where the stage-lighting for the shot-live-on-video isn't so great and there tends to be some rather harsh lighting that at times hits say a white sweater just right and with auto-enhancement modes on the white sweater turns into blinding white with no texture or detail, yet with enhancement off you can see the texture and detail come back into the sweater. This was just a couple weeks ago I was noticing this happen. The sweater was so white I immediately thought it couldn't really have looked like that originally, could it? Then I turned off the enhancements and sure enough the detail popped right back into sweater.
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