Official Sony KDL-46HX750 & KDL-55HX750 Owners Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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LCD Flat Panel Displays > Official Sony KDL-46HX750 & KDL-55HX750 Owners Thread
loverotties's Avatar loverotties 02:51 PM 02-15-2013
Thanks Steve. I have my tv set to your settings. I'm picking up a redbox movie tonight and will give it a go. Hate to sound slow here but based on what you said about Setting Memory - I do want Current Input. Is that right?

steve1971's Avatar steve1971 08:01 PM 02-15-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by loverotties View Post

Thanks Steve. I have my tv set to your settings. I'm picking up a redbox movie tonight and will give it a go. Hate to sound slow here but based on what you said about Setting Memory - I do want Current Input. Is that right?


Thats correct you want Current Imput.
loverotties's Avatar loverotties 05:04 AM 02-16-2013
Steve, I'm going to stay with your settings that you just posted. I've tried about five different settings over the last several days and like this one the best. We watched two movies last night and the picture quality is great. The blacks are very deep also. I'd like to see the professional reviewers review of this tv with these settings. For the price paid and picture quality that I have now, I wouldn't hesitate to buy this tv again if mine were to become defective. I'd be interested in anyone else's comments if they try these settings.
loverotties's Avatar loverotties 05:21 AM 02-16-2013
Forgot to mention in my last post - Before I changed any settings the first week that I had my tv, there was zero light coming from the corner or edges of the tv. I am positve on this because we had the lights in the room off and my wife was looking also. Now that I have made adjustments, there is very, very slight light coming from corners and edges. You have to have lights off and really be looking for it to notice. As I have said earlier though, I'm only seeing it now that I am looking for it and it doesn't matter to me. This is a great tv set and a keeper until the oleds come down a lot in price and have moth eye panels.
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 11:23 AM 02-16-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by loverotties View Post

Steve, I'm going to stay with your settings that you just posted. I've tried about five different settings over the last several days and like this one the best. We watched two movies last night and the picture quality is great. The blacks are very deep also. I'd like to see the professional reviewers review of this tv with these settings. For the price paid and picture quality that I have now, I wouldn't hesitate to buy this tv again if mine were to become defective. I'd be interested in anyone else's comments if they try these settings.


Cool I am glad you like them, I know I sure do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loverotties View Post

Forgot to mention in my last post - Before I changed any settings the first week that I had my tv, there was zero light coming from the corner or edges of the tv. I am positve on this because we had the lights in the room off and my wife was looking also. Now that I have made adjustments, there is very, very slight light coming from corners and edges. You have to have lights off and really be looking for it to notice. As I have said earlier though, I'm only seeing it now that I am looking for it and it doesn't matter to me. This is a great tv set and a keeper until the oleds come down a lot in price and have moth eye panels.


I looked for it as well when I changed my settings but again nothing so I guess I am one of the lucky ones that has a good panel. That being said I will also wait to see what Sony offers in OLED before I even think of upgrading. My tv is a keeper as well.
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 04:58 AM 02-17-2013
I wanna share what i found . There seems to be a huge difference between setting the tv in Home or Shop Mode .

On sony site i found that : Peak luminance ratio 71% . And from what i found out when u set the tv in Home mode it sets the contrast and the backlight lower to 71 % of the possible 100 % in shop mode . Having same settings ( brightness backlight and so on ) on both Shop and Home mode is completely DIFFERENT . While having the backlight in 10/10(max) will result in a bit lower black levels , if u put it on 6/10 brightness in shop mode , the blacklevels will be better than Home mode 10/10 brightness , and ofcourse the contrast the colors and all look so much better . I am not talking up for cranked up vivid mode which makes everything HORRIBLE .(Note:if u set the tv in Shop mode u should have the e-Pop/Demo mode OFF )

I use TV as PC monitor . Color range is 0-255 Full on both computer and TV , 1080p 60 hz , Full pixel 1:1 mapping . Also what i found out YOU SHOULD set the tv in Graphics mode in Scene select , rather than General ( it is very missledding the info that General is to have scene selection off ) . If you set the scene to General it smears/unfocuses everything . If you have red text for example on white background it makes the read smear all over the white , even thought it is still set as 1:1 pixel mapping , the red smears to the next/adjancent pixels ( i have clear type thing OFF in windows and set all my fonts perfectly ) .

Reading on one site i found ( but for Plasma and CRTs ) PEAK LEVEL LUMINANCE "For most typical video programming, these brightness limiting circuits won't be active and the "peak luminance" measurement will accurately characterize the display's luminance, but when large areas of white are present, the circuits may turn on and the display brightness might be reduced. " Means that in Plasma and CRT that is actively used as a protection so ur screen wont burn in or damage .

While i cant find anything for LCD/LED somepeople seem to say that using the shop mode will use more energy ( thats logical , simple physics ) and will also use the tv itself more , resulting in blunting/dulling/fading faster . My question is how faster ? I have 2 years warranty and i wouldnt care much what will happen to it after that 2 years warranty and if it bricks , get horizontal lines or anything like that i will get it replaced , pay a bit more for higher end tv and have 2 more years warranty and new tv .

Just for more info as why i prefer Shop mode : Before that KDL-55HX750 i had Samsung 46D6530 ( and that sony is replacement+ i paid 600 $ extra, cos i succeed the shop to replace the samsung cos of false advertise on having FULL HD 3D ) . I loved the samsung 2D picture , and i got my computer to the shop so i can compare the 55HX750 on the demonstration tv it was looking as good or better than the samsung . WHen i got home i had to reset factory settings and set it in home use . But for a week i couldnt figure out what to fix and calibrate so my tv will look like the Samsung . Obviously i thought that the shop mode uses vivid settings and just the presets for brightness and so r different but as i said , home mode clearly limits the tv of 70 % of its capabilities . Just like Apple gives option to limit the peak sound levels so ur ears wont mess up . As it is clear for me i cant have the backlight in 10/10 in Shop mode and do my job/work/type code / text and so on as i feel like i am watching directly in someone car lights . Having it on 3-4 makes things look way better even for looking something on white background , than having home mode and 10/10 backlight .

I have also red that Shop mode will reset my picture settings after certain time , but so far nothing changed and it would be weard settings to change after a week or a month on their own .


Anyway i hope this will help people like me knowing how to choose if to set Shop Mode or Home use . And that using the tv as a computer monitor should be set as Graphics and NOT GENERAL .

I hope someone can answer the question how much will the tv be overused/blunted/faded if using a shop mode instead of home . My samsung was always using the 100 % of its performance ( its shop or home use doesnt result in different levels of the same picture settings Brightness Contrast and so on , it was just giving demonstrations for the options and so - Sony also have such thing e-Pop and Demo mode which ofcourse i have OFF)
The Grim Reaper's Avatar The Grim Reaper 07:52 AM 02-17-2013
So, I am going back and forth about buying an HX750. I have read through a lot of these pages. Do you recommend a Sony 3D blu ray player as well?
loverotties's Avatar loverotties 09:33 AM 02-17-2013
After I bought my hx750, I moved my older 46" tv and blu ray player upstairs and now needed a new one. There are several well reviewed 3D wi-fi blu ray players out there. One is from Panasonic, the next is Samsung and then the Sony. I bought the Sony BDP-S590. Not the highest reviewed score but still pretty good. I just wanted to stick with Sony because it all works together. I bought at Sam's Club for $90 and it included an HDMI cable. It works great but I'm betting if you watched a blu ray from any of the the top ten rated players you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in viewing. I think the main difference is speed in loading disc.
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 04:47 PM 02-17-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper View Post

So, I am going back and forth about buying an HX750. I have read through a lot of these pages. Do you recommend a Sony 3D blu ray player as well?


If you get the HX750 I recommend the Sony BDP S590. For the the price its an excellent Blu ray/3D Player.
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 01:32 AM 02-18-2013
Turns out there is a Europe Union directive 642/2009 which regulates energy efficiency . Which basicly says all Tvs that have no DVI ( because tv with dvi , like samsung for example have HDMI1 set as DVI ( no audio ) is intended to work as a PC monitor ) do not fall in that category . Since ALL HDMI inputs on the Sony have audio output they r not DVI so this tv falls in the tv category and according to the Europe Union 642/2009

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/tv_vcr/Forced_Menu_Proposal_111607.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficiency/ecodesign/doc/regulations/guidelines_ecodesign_televisions_may_2011.pdf

"With this in mind, stakeholders suggested that use of a forced menu option may meet manufacturers’ need for a retail setting while meeting EPA’s need for products to be used by consumers in a lower power setting.Thus, EPA calls for the use of IEC 62087 and clarifies that products with a forced menu at start up (i.e., a menu where a user must select a mode in which the product will operate prior to being able to view anything on the TV) may test and qualify their products in a standard mode. To further consistent messaging to consumers about how to set their TVs for home use, EPA is calling on manufacturers to provide two choices: “home” or “retail” in the interface that appears when a consumer or retail customer first starts a TV that makes use of a forced menu option."

And

"Question: Are products with SDI and/or DVI and additional standardised video signal paths
included in the scope of the regulation considered to be a "television monitor"?
Answer: No, products which provide SDI and/or DVI connectors are not considered to be
"television monitors" and therefore not in the scope of the regulation, irrespective of any other
signal connectors which are also fitted to the product."

"Answer: Article 2, definitions, point 10 states that ‘forced menu’ means a set of television
settings pre-defined by the manufacturer, of which the user of the television must select a
particular setting upon initial start-up of the television.
If a television offers a choice of non-picture related settings, e.g. language or country, on
initial activation, then such settings are not regarded as ‘forced menu’, as these settings have
no influence on the energy consumption of the TV.
If the television does not provide a forced menu (for example containing “home” and “shop”
modes), then the picture settings of the television as delivered by the manufacturer shall be
used for power consumption measurements."

4. Brightest on-mode condition
Question: What is meant by "brightest on-mode condition provided by the television"?
Answer: The "brightest on-mode condition" is the product’s maximum luminance that can be
provided by the television when "manually" adjusting the relevant picture settings while
maintaining optimum picture contrast as tested using relevant grey-scale test patterns.
In case that a preset mode (for example, “shop” mode) is identified as the brightest on-mode
condition provided by the television, manufacturers shall ensure that no further upward
modification of the luminance through manual adjustment is possible by the user.
Further to the third indent of point 5(b) of Annex I, the sequence of steps for achieving a
stable condition providing the brightest on-mode condition applied for conformity assessment
has to be included in the technical documentation.
5. Peak luminance ratio
Question: What are examples of appropriate test patterns for establishing the peak luminance
ratio?
Answer: Annex II, 3(a) requires that “Measurements shall be made using a reliable, accurate
and reproducible measurement procedure”, where Annex II, 3(b) demands "a full (100 %)
white image, which is part of a ‘full screen test’ test pattern that does not exceed the average
picture level (APL) point where any power limiting occurs in the display luminance drive
system".
In order to deliver reliable, accurate, and reproducible measurements of peak luminance ratio,
manufacturers have to choose an appropriate test pattern that meets the applicable
requirements. The test pattern chosen should not introduce power limiting and should not
introduce any other display power drive irregularity that distorts a linear power to luminance
characteristic at the home mode.




ANYWAY BASICLY THE POINT OF USING THE HOME MODE IS ONLY IF YOU WANT TO SAVE ENERGY , BECAUSE IT DRASTICLY CUTS OFF THE REAL PERFORMANCE OF YOUR TV .
All samsungs work on 100 % because they escape this category of EU because as i said they have DVI ( samsung give u pixel mapping only on HDMI1/DVI and no audio on that HDMI because it is indeed a DVI connection ) . While SONY give u a global settings for FULL PIXEL 1:1 mapping which can give u FULL PIXEL on all 4 HDMI ports and also have HDMI Audio .

I am going to make a global thread on that subject but wanted to share my findings on here too .
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 07:10 AM 02-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

Turns out there is a Europe Union directive 642/2009 which regulates energy efficiency . Which basicly says all Tvs that have no DVI ( because tv with dvi , like samsung for example have HDMI1 set as DVI ( no audio ) is intended to work as a PC monitor ) do not fall in that category . Since ALL HDMI inputs on the Sony have audio output they r not DVI so this tv falls in the tv category and according to the Europe Union 642/2009

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/tv_vcr/Forced_Menu_Proposal_111607.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficiency/ecodesign/doc/regulations/guidelines_ecodesign_televisions_may_2011.pdf

"With this in mind, stakeholders suggested that use of a forced menu option may meet manufacturers’ need for a retail setting while meeting EPA’s need for products to be used by consumers in a lower power setting.Thus, EPA calls for the use of IEC 62087 and clarifies that products with a forced menu at start up (i.e., a menu where a user must select a mode in which the product will operate prior to being able to view anything on the TV) may test and qualify their products in a standard mode. To further consistent messaging to consumers about how to set their TVs for home use, EPA is calling on manufacturers to provide two choices: “home” or “retail” in the interface that appears when a consumer or retail customer first starts a TV that makes use of a forced menu option."

And

"Question: Are products with SDI and/or DVI and additional standardised video signal paths
included in the scope of the regulation considered to be a "television monitor"?
Answer: No, products which provide SDI and/or DVI connectors are not considered to be
"television monitors" and therefore not in the scope of the regulation, irrespective of any other
signal connectors which are also fitted to the product."

"Answer: Article 2, definitions, point 10 states that ‘forced menu’ means a set of television
settings pre-defined by the manufacturer, of which the user of the television must select a
particular setting upon initial start-up of the television.
If a television offers a choice of non-picture related settings, e.g. language or country, on
initial activation, then such settings are not regarded as ‘forced menu’, as these settings have
no influence on the energy consumption of the TV.
If the television does not provide a forced menu (for example containing “home” and “shop”
modes), then the picture settings of the television as delivered by the manufacturer shall be
used for power consumption measurements."

4. Brightest on-mode condition
Question: What is meant by "brightest on-mode condition provided by the television"?
Answer: The "brightest on-mode condition" is the product’s maximum luminance that can be
provided by the television when "manually" adjusting the relevant picture settings while
maintaining optimum picture contrast as tested using relevant grey-scale test patterns.
In case that a preset mode (for example, “shop” mode) is identified as the brightest on-mode
condition provided by the television, manufacturers shall ensure that no further upward
modification of the luminance through manual adjustment is possible by the user.
Further to the third indent of point 5(b) of Annex I, the sequence of steps for achieving a
stable condition providing the brightest on-mode condition applied for conformity assessment
has to be included in the technical documentation.
5. Peak luminance ratio
Question: What are examples of appropriate test patterns for establishing the peak luminance
ratio?
Answer: Annex II, 3(a) requires that “Measurements shall be made using a reliable, accurate
and reproducible measurement procedure”, where Annex II, 3(b) demands "a full (100 %)
white image, which is part of a ‘full screen test’ test pattern that does not exceed the average
picture level (APL) point where any power limiting occurs in the display luminance drive
system".
In order to deliver reliable, accurate, and reproducible measurements of peak luminance ratio,
manufacturers have to choose an appropriate test pattern that meets the applicable
requirements. The test pattern chosen should not introduce power limiting and should not
introduce any other display power drive irregularity that distorts a linear power to luminance
characteristic at the home mode.




ANYWAY BASICLY THE POINT OF USING THE HOME MODE IS ONLY IF YOU WANT TO SAVE ENERGY , BECAUSE IT DRASTICLY CUTS OFF THE REAL PERFORMANCE OF YOUR TV .
All samsungs work on 100 % because they escape this category of EU because as i said they have DVI ( samsung give u pixel mapping only on HDMI1/DVI and no audio on that HDMI because it is indeed a DVI connection ) . While SONY give u a global settings for FULL PIXEL 1:1 mapping which can give u FULL PIXEL on all 4 HDMI ports and also have HDMI Audio .

I am going to make a global thread on that subject but wanted to share my findings on here too .


Dude I am totally lost here! First I wouldnt use a tv like the HX750 for a computer monitor, I know some people do like yourself but there are other tv's that are much cheaper that you can use as a computer monitor. Spending what a person does on an HX750 for a computer monitor only is a waste to me. If I were going to buy an HDTV for a computer monitior only I would buy a Hisense, Apex or some other brand you can get cheap. And as far as having my tv on shop mode? Or store mode as I call it? No thanks. It shortens the life of a tv and those modes usually are only used for Store use only and not alot of manufacter's recommend it, I know for a fact Sony doesnt!
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 03:06 PM 02-18-2013
Steve , first of all i use the tv as a monitor because it is 55". Its price isnt a problem and i preffer having one monitor as a PC monitor , Xbox360 monitor and Movies/Tv series monitor , also having a huge screen is good when u r typing code at least for me .If you limit a PC for Facebook and Forums , then i would understand the lack of desire for 55" TV as a monitor , but keep in mind that u can watch Blu-Rays , HD shows on ur computer and the qualty will be better and give u more options rather than a standalone blu-ray player .
Anyway i posted the above because it consists of facts . For example Samsung tv`s do not fall in that economy Europe union directive 642/2009 because they have DVI on HDMI 1 , while sony has all the ports as HDMI ( they carry audio too so they r not considered as output for a pc monitor ) thought Sony gives u the option for full pixel 1:1 mapping so u can use it perfectly as a PC monitor . If Samsung gives u ability to use ur display , tv , monitor whatever u wanna call it on 100 % , the reason sony doesnt is because they fall under that directive 642/2009 , so they have to put a FORCED Menu and give u option for Home ( 70 % of the capabilities of your tv ) or Shop mode ( full 100 % ) . It is done ONLY AND ONLY to serve ENERGY CONSUMATION SAVINGS . EVEN thought it acts in a similar matter as ECO settings , eco settings can be turned off and on from the settings in the home menu , while to go to shop mode u MUST start the auto setup or factory reset and go to the FORCED MENU ( Forced menu is a menu that u have to go through in order to be able to use the tv at all , meaning u cant use the tv unless u have initially went through the auto set up ! ) .

Needless to say LCD doesnt needs to protect circuits of the matrix like the Plasma when it displays WHITE , as when an LCD displays white it transits/sends NO or very low electricity to the LCD PANEL ( Liquid crystals use zero energy or close to zero when u want them to passthrough the Backlight fully , and if u want to display black then u apply voltage to the pixels so they will block the light from the back light ) . While in plasma black = no energy , white = the pixel emits plasma light which means it uses energy . Thats why having a plasma not set on 100 % maximum is good , lower burn in and less fading out .
Therefore the only trouble you could have with SHOP mode and having the TV perform on 100 % would be ENERGY and saving the BACKLIGHT , which is LED and is supposed to go for at least 50 000 Hours ( do the math and if u watch 10 hours tv a day it means 10x365daysx10years = 36500 hours = 10 years ... ) seriously who of us is going to plan on using an LCD LED TV for 15 YEARS ? .

Anyway my information was only to serve people who like me want to use their TV AS IT IS MENT TO BE .
AGAIN THIS SHOP AND HOME MODE difference MIGHT BE ONLY FOR EUROPEAN MODELS and new one cos it is effective of 2011 and after that . Thats why i asked for someone with US TV to confirm the difference . Best way to do is to get ur camera take pictures with manual exposure , aperture and shutter so u can see the differences exactly . But it is easly seen with naked eye .
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 03:27 PM 02-18-2013
Also "quote by Sony " " Sony also does not support measuring power consumption at prescribed luminance levels or picture settings. Sony believes that picture settings are performance settings and are not directly tied to luminance. (Sony, No. 8 at p. 2) "
U can find it here http://govpulse.us/entries/2012/01/19/2012-687/energy-conservation-program-test-procedure-for-television-sets#id701559

Under Method for testing Luminance . Clearly Sony doesnt like that silly european directive -basicly cutsbasicly cuts off energy from 100 % to 70 % and they have to try to keep up as much of the qualty of the picture . Obviously its like running a 570 horse power ferrari , limited to 300 horse power , ofcourse it will not feel like a ferrari

p.s Panasonic , Sharp , Mitsubishi and others are also against this directive and their opinion is that measuring consumated power isnt a way to measure screen luminance or brightness .
HaRd2BeAr's Avatar HaRd2BeAr 03:38 PM 02-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

Also "quote by Sony " " Sony also does not support measuring power consumption at prescribed luminance levels or picture settings. Sony believes that picture settings are performance settings and are not directly tied to luminance. (Sony, No. 8 at p. 2) "
U can find it here http://govpulse.us/entries/2012/01/19/2012-687/energy-conservation-program-test-procedure-for-television-sets#id701559

Under Method for testing Luminance . Clearly Sony doesnt like that silly european directive -basicly cutsbasicly cuts off energy from 100 % to 70 % and they have to try to keep up as much of the qualty of the picture . Obviously its like running a 570 horse power ferrari , limited to 300 horse power , ofcourse it will not feel like a ferrari

p.s Panasonic , Sharp , Mitsubishi and others are also against this directive and their opinion is that measuring consumated power isnt a way to measure screen luminance or brightness .

Are we talking about the ultimate luminance of the panel here or other benefits?

I don't really see the point myself as even at 70% this set is more than bright enough. In fact its to bright at full bcklight in home mode.

Aaron
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 04:10 PM 02-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaRd2BeAr View Post

Are we talking about the ultimate luminance of the panel here or other benefits?

I don't really see the point myself as even at 70% this set is more than bright enough. In fact its to bright at full bcklight in home mode.

Aaron


Aaron I am totally lost about what tcruise7771 is trying to say. Maybe you can help out on this one. confused.gif
HaRd2BeAr's Avatar HaRd2BeAr 04:18 PM 02-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Aaron I am totally lost about what tcruise7771 is trying to say. Maybe you can help out on this one. confused.gif

Me to Steve, if we are talking about home mode capping the backlight to 70% then i see no problem. As i said home mode is too bright with the backlight cranked all the way up.

I can't think of any reason to use shop mode at this moment.
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 01:44 AM 02-19-2013
I am not sure if it is only limited to capping the backlight . The whole image changes . It just doesnt looks right when its in home mode for example things that should look certain blue , look like different blue so i am not sure if they use other cut offs for example how they control the LCD matrix itself . I don't want to confuse anyone , as 10/10 backlight in shop mode is too bright even thought the contrast is great , i have it on 4-6 backlight but as soon as i put it in home mode the colors doesnt look as they should be . I tried it last night moved the old 46B7000 Samsung from the other room , its not that old , like 3 years and its LED and calibrated it again so i can compare . When Sony is in shop mode , and next to the Samsung both was looking right even with them having lower backlight settings . When i put the Sony in home mode the whole picture changes even with backlight at maximum , image looks like it burned , like when u leave a photo on the sun it just fades . Another example Text that looks more contrasted/darker blue , looked like sky blue in home mode and everything is so off contrast .
I dont believe they have gone only with simple capping of backlight , as the difference between both Home and shop mode in energy efficience is so different -


Power consumption (in operation) (Home mode) (W) 87
Power consumption (in operation) (Shop mode) (W) 152
Simple logic is if you devide 87/152 W you will get 57 % energy effiency . So how reducing only the backlight of an LED LCD from 100-70 % will reduce the energy consumation twice ? Simple physics it cant . I believe they control the whole matrix different also and from that the contrast also changes . From what i see this is done ONLY in EUROPE UNION and from 2011 year every model has to carry this :
This model carries an EU Energy Rating of 'A+'. Products with an 'A+' rating are the most energy efficient, and 'G' the least.

What i basicly say is shop mode is better because u can choose how to set the tv right ( as you have the option to choose if u want also Demo mode or Epop engaged which will reset ur settings every 5 minutes , u want that demo mode off ) .
I dont think i am explaining it too hard but everyone should want to have a full control over its device and have as much more contrast as possible . It is up to everyone to have the contrast set low or the backlight or watch it if he wants in black and white by putting colors to 0 , but that "Forced Menu - the auto set up " just makes ur tv acts stupid . As i quoted above , neither Sony,Sharp , Mitsubishi , Philips are happy about that eco regulation , as it clearly says that it will reduce the image to a level that is supposed to be
"not too dim and washed out " .

Anyway just wanted to help and clarify because so far i had 2 LED Samsungs and cos they had DVI they didnt fallen in that category while Sony and Sharp for example fall for that eco directory .
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 02:31 AM 02-19-2013
Just found interest info :

http://www.topten.eu/uploads/File/Deliverables%20Plus/D5%20Criteria_paper_TV_sets.pdf

Peak luminance ratio
Ratio of the peak luminance of the home-mode condition or of the on-mode condition of the
television as set by the supplier over the peak luminance of the brightest on-mode condition.
According to CR 642/2009 measurements of peak luminance shall be made with a luminance
meter, detecting that portion of the screen exhibiting a full (100 %) white image, which is part of
a ‘full screen test’ test pattern that does not exceed the average picture level (APL) point where
any power limiting occurs in the display luminance drive system.
Shop Mode
“Shop mode” means the television setting which is recommended by the manufacturer to be
used on point of sale with usually much higher brightness and contrast levels compared to the
home mode setting.


Also ,

Criteria “On mode power consumption”
Due date Product type Full HD resolution All other resolutions
TV sets 20 W + A x 1,12 x 4,3224
W/dm²
From 20 August 20 W + A x 4,3224 W/dm²
2010
TV monitors 15 W + A x 1,12 x 4,3224
W/dm²
20 W + A x 4,3224 W/dm²
From 1 April TV sets 16 W + A x 3,4579 W/dm²
2012
TV monitors 12 W + A x 3,4579 W/dm²

From the above means that the tvs in 2010 had 20+ + around 4,32 W per dm2 of their screen size , and after April 2012 they have to have 16W + 3.45W per dm2 of their screen size . Since in 2010 and 2012 the technology is still LED i dont see how they can cut off so much power efficient without reducing the image quality . It is the same stuff with cars , while with buying a ferrary u pay the ecco penalty ( which is nothing compared to buying the car ) because it has bad emosions and has bad mile per galon ratio , i dont think anyone who enjoys driving a ferrari and has the money for it will want an ECO limited Ferrari with 50 horses instead of 500 ...

Having an option in the Home menu and choosing ECO settings is OK and is one thing , while having a forced menu that asks u to choose shop or home mode in my opinion is completely different and very BAD thing .
HaRd2BeAr's Avatar HaRd2BeAr 05:16 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

I am not sure if it is only limited to capping the backlight . The whole image changes . It just doesnt looks right when its in home mode for example things that should look certain blue , look like different blue so i am not sure if they use other cut offs for example how they control the LCD matrix itself . I don't want to confuse anyone , as 10/10 backlight in shop mode is too bright even thought the contrast is great , i have it on 4-6 backlight but as soon as i put it in home mode the colors doesnt look as they should be . I tried it last night moved the old 46B7000 Samsung from the other room , its not that old , like 3 years and its LED and calibrated it again so i can compare . When Sony is in shop mode , and next to the Samsung both was looking right even with them having lower backlight settings . When i put the Sony in home mode the whole picture changes even with backlight at maximum , image looks like it burned , like when u leave a photo on the sun it just fades . Another example Text that looks more contrasted/darker blue , looked like sky blue in home mode and everything is so off contrast .
I dont believe they have gone only with simple capping of backlight , as the difference between both Home and shop mode in energy efficience is so different -


Power consumption (in operation) (Home mode) (W) 87
Power consumption (in operation) (Shop mode) (W) 152
Simple logic is if you devide 87/152 W you will get 57 % energy effiency . So how reducing only the backlight of an LED LCD from 100-70 % will reduce the energy consumation twice ? Simple physics it cant . I believe they control the whole matrix different also and from that the contrast also changes . From what i see this is done ONLY in EUROPE UNION and from 2011 year every model has to carry this :
This model carries an EU Energy Rating of 'A+'. Products with an 'A+' rating are the most energy efficient, and 'G' the least.

What i basicly say is shop mode is better because u can choose how to set the tv right ( as you have the option to choose if u want also Demo mode or Epop engaged which will reset ur settings every 5 minutes , u want that demo mode off ) .
I dont think i am explaining it too hard but everyone should want to have a full control over its device and have as much more contrast as possible . It is up to everyone to have the contrast set low or the backlight or watch it if he wants in black and white by putting colors to 0 , but that "Forced Menu - the auto set up " just makes ur tv acts stupid . As i quoted above , neither Sony,Sharp , Mitsubishi , Philips are happy about that eco regulation , as it clearly says that it will reduce the image to a level that is supposed to be
"not too dim and washed out " .

Anyway just wanted to help and clarify because so far i had 2 LED Samsungs and cos they had DVI they didnt fallen in that category while Sony and Sharp for example fall for that eco directory .

Ok, you have intrigued me enough that i will try it, assuming it's easy enough to reset and go back to home mode if needed?

Though i own a HX850.

Aaron
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 06:57 AM 02-19-2013
Aaron Yes it is very easy you do not even need to reset ur picture settings . Just Press Home then slide to Settings - > System Settings -> and slide down to Auto Start up then u it will ask you for Language and country , and then ask you for Shop or home mode . Select SHOP mode if you want to check out the difference in shop mode , it will ask you for confirmation yes or no , and as soon as you select yess and enter on ur remote the contrast and light will change (even thought when u r in autoset up the surroundings of the screen r black/close to black colors u can still notice the difference ) , then u can skip the next steps for setting internet as you already have set them . MAKE SURE U CHOOSE NOT to use Demo mode or e-Pop mode you do NOT want those enabled .

After you do that , you can also change the scene selection to Graphics and from Home-> Display -> Screen -> Auto Display area OFF and select FULL PIXEL this will give u 1:1 pixel mapping meaning there will be no over/underscan of the image . Also make sure u have the Home-> Settings -> Eco settings OFF both for power savings and for ambient light sensor OFF .
If you have a camera that u can set the exposition , aperture , shutter speed and the iso to manual take a picture first of what u r seing now , and another one after u do the above steps .

Note Switching to Shop Mode from Home mode , and vise versa will NOT change ur PICTURE presets meaning if u have the backlight set to 8/10 and colors on 50 for example , they will remain the same . ONLY Your tv will interpretate them in 100 % as they should be . If you have a computer to do the test above will be best but also using a blu-ray disk with a good source ( good movie ) that has lots of details and not much grain/noise would show u the difference .

HX750,850 or even the upper end , all have the limitations in the Home mode . So u should experience the difference for the HX850. One thing i am not sure does it apply`s for USA models as it is Europe Union regulation/directive . USA HX750 have different firmware than the EUROPE models so i was hoping that someone can confirm it . I have red somewhere on the usa sony site that that limitation exists on the USA models too but i lost the thread .

Anyway the difference should apply to all european models :
• Applicable models: •KDL-65HX955 / HX953 / HX950
•KDL-55HX75G / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / HX855 / HX853 / HX850 / HX955 / HX953 / HX950
•KDL-46HX75G / HX759 / HX758 / HX757 / HX756 / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / HX855 / HX853 / HX850 / EX655 / EX653 / EX650
•KDL-40HX75G / HX759 / HX758 / HX757 / HX756 / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / HX855 / HX853 / HX850 / EX655 / EX653 / EX650
•KDL-32HX759 / HX758 / HX757 / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / EX655 / EX653 / EX650
•KDL-26EX555 / EX553 / EX550
•KDL-22EX555 / EX553 / EX550
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 06:59 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaRd2BeAr View Post

Ok, you have intrigued me enough that i will try it, assuming it's easy enough to reset and go back to home mode if needed?

Though i own a HX850.

Aaron


Aaron let me know how it works out ok? I am thinking by "shop mode" tcruise7771 means store mode here in the States. Anyway let me know how it works for you. I aint touching it I know that. But I am interested in the results if you do it.
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 07:38 AM 02-19-2013
I have just used a electricity power metter to test my 55HX750 . Under shop mode it showed 112.2 Watts per hour use . It is the current use with having a static image displaid and the tv is connected to the pc with HDMI . I changed to shop mode without touching the pc or the image itself the power use changed instantly to 60.1 Watts . I have the backlight at 8/10 . After that i set the backlight to 10/10 and in shop mode it made the energy consumption at ~ 124 W/hour . I am using a high qualty power metter and the tv cable is directly connected to the powermetter itself (Voltcraft - Energy Check 3000 ) . Switching to Fully White / Green / Blue etc images doesnt affects the Wats use much there is like 10 W difference tops . I have set to have the Eco modes and ambient light sensors to OFF and set the advanced contrast enhancer and black corrector to off , also motion flow is off . I can post the settings i use in detail if anyone wants them .
Also when the tv is in standby in shop mode is 12Wats.
If you use the internal digital broadcaster u might use a bit more energy i guess but with all the tests i made even if i turn on Brightness to 100 i wasnt able to go above 135 W in shop mode , while home mode goes as much as 74 Wats per hour .

So if standby of the tv is 12 Wats and Home mode uses Total of 60 Wats when its powered . Lets consider that 60-12 = 48 W goes all for the Picture itself ( even thought i have funtions like wifi on ) . That would mean 48 Wats for the picture itself .
Shop mode has ~112 Wats use so - 12 W standby = 100 W for the picture itself .
48W vs 100 W ?

I have also just tested my mothers Samsung 46B7000 obviously it is 46" it has LED it was the first LED models of Samsung and i was very pleased with the picture qualty and contrast . It is set for a bright room backlight is at maximum but otherwise brightness , contrast are corresponding to the Sony . What i am getting in the Watt metter is 150W in use . If i turn on the eco settings for power savings on maximum the tv uses 87 Wats and the picture becomes dull and sux just like the Home mode on the Sony .

The logic is that one should choose home mode ONLY IF he intends to save energy , but still if u lower the backlight it will result in lower consumation , thought i dont think anyone who has $ for those tvs care if he will pay 2 or 5 $ in his montly electricity bill .
If anyone wants i could do more power consumption tests on both the Sony and Samsung , note that the Samsung is 2009 LED Model and i think its full array LED and it has DVI so even if it was a later model it would have not fallen in the 642/2009 Directive which i think is in power after 2011th year . And Sony is 2012 and is Edge lit , but still...
I can understand 150W for 46" go down to 130W for 55 " tv but anyone telling me a 60W for a tv that uses 12Wats per standby would give me an adequate image is a joke .
HaRd2BeAr's Avatar HaRd2BeAr 08:14 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

Aaron Yes it is very easy you do not even need to reset ur picture settings . Just Press Home then slide to Settings - > System Settings -> and slide down to Auto Start up then u it will ask you for Language and country , and then ask you for Shop or home mode . Select SHOP mode if you want to check out the difference in shop mode , it will ask you for confirmation yes or no , and as soon as you select yess and enter on ur remote the contrast and light will change (even thought when u r in autoset up the surroundings of the screen r black/close to black colors u can still notice the difference ) , then u can skip the next steps for setting internet as you already have set them . MAKE SURE U CHOOSE NOT to use Demo mode or e-Pop mode you do NOT want those enabled .

After you do that , you can also change the scene selection to Graphics and from Home-> Display -> Screen -> Auto Display area OFF and select FULL PIXEL this will give u 1:1 pixel mapping meaning there will be no over/underscan of the image . Also make sure u have the Home-> Settings -> Eco settings OFF both for power savings and for ambient light sensor OFF .
If you have a camera that u can set the exposition , aperture , shutter speed and the iso to manual take a picture first of what u r seing now , and another one after u do the above steps .

Note Switching to Shop Mode from Home mode , and vise versa will NOT change ur PICTURE presets meaning if u have the backlight set to 8/10 and colors on 50 for example , they will remain the same . ONLY Your tv will interpretate them in 100 % as they should be . If you have a computer to do the test above will be best but also using a blu-ray disk with a good source ( good movie ) that has lots of details and not much grain/noise would show u the difference .

HX750,850 or even the upper end , all have the limitations in the Home mode . So u should experience the difference for the HX850. One thing i am not sure does it apply`s for USA models as it is Europe Union regulation/directive . USA HX750 have different firmware than the EUROPE models so i was hoping that someone can confirm it . I have red somewhere on the usa sony site that that limitation exists on the USA models too but i lost the thread .

Anyway the difference should apply to all european models :
• Applicable models: •KDL-65HX955 / HX953 / HX950
•KDL-55HX75G / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / HX855 / HX853 / HX850 / HX955 / HX953 / HX950
•KDL-46HX75G / HX759 / HX758 / HX757 / HX756 / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / HX855 / HX853 / HX850 / EX655 / EX653 / EX650
•KDL-40HX75G / HX759 / HX758 / HX757 / HX756 / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / HX855 / HX853 / HX850 / EX655 / EX653 / EX650
•KDL-32HX759 / HX758 / HX757 / HX755 / HX753 / HX751 / HX750 / EX655 / EX653 / EX650
•KDL-26EX555 / EX553 / EX550
•KDL-22EX555 / EX553 / EX550

Thank you, will do it now. Luckily i own the UK HX853 so it should be ok.
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 08:17 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

I have just used a electricity power metter to test my 55HX750 . Under shop mode it showed 112.2 Watts per hour use . It is the current use with having a static image displaid and the tv is connected to the pc with HDMI . I changed to shop mode without touching the pc or the image itself the power use changed instantly to 60.1 Watts . I have the backlight at 8/10 . After that i set the backlight to 10/10 and in shop mode it made the energy consumption at ~ 124 W/hour . I am using a high qualty power metter and the tv cable is directly connected to the powermetter itself (Voltcraft - Energy Check 3000 ) . Switching to Fully White / Green / Blue etc images doesnt affects the Wats use much there is like 10 W difference tops . I have set to have the Eco modes and ambient light sensors to OFF and set the advanced contrast enhancer and black corrector to off , also motion flow is off . I can post the settings i use in detail if anyone wants them .
Also when the tv is in standby in shop mode is 12Wats.
If you use the internal digital broadcaster u might use a bit more energy i guess but with all the tests i made even if i turn on Brightness to 100 i wasnt able to go above 135 W in shop mode , while home mode goes as much as 74 Wats per hour .

So if standby of the tv is 12 Wats and Home mode uses Total of 60 Wats when its powered . Lets consider that 60-12 = 48 W goes all for the Picture itself ( even thought i have funtions like wifi on ) . That would mean 48 Wats for the picture itself .
Shop mode has ~112 Wats use so - 12 W standby = 100 W for the picture itself .
48W vs 100 W ?

I have also just tested my mothers Samsung 46B7000 obviously it is 46" it has LED it was the first LED models of Samsung and i was very pleased with the picture qualty and contrast . It is set for a bright room backlight is at maximum but otherwise brightness , contrast are corresponding to the Sony . What i am getting in the Watt metter is 150W in use . If i turn on the eco settings for power savings on maximum the tv uses 87 Wats and the picture becomes dull and sux just like the Home mode on the Sony .

The logic is that one should choose home mode ONLY IF he intends to save energy , but still if u lower the backlight it will result in lower consumation , thought i dont think anyone who has $ for those tvs care if he will pay 2 or 5 $ in his montly electricity bill .
If anyone wants i could do more power consumption tests on both the Sony and Samsung , note that the Samsung is 2009 LED Model and i think its full array LED and it has DVI so even if it was a later model it would have not fallen in the 642/2009 Directive which i think is in power after 2011th year . And Sony is 2012 and is Edge lit , but still...
I can understand 150W for 46" go down to 130W for 55 " tv but anyone telling me a 60W for a tv that uses 12Wats per standby would give me an adequate image is a joke .


On my tv I use Home Mode because Sony recommends it and so does other people I have talked with. I use my Eco Setting and I use Ambiant Sensor as well and trust me the Picture Quality is more then adequate for my taste. You want to use Shop Mode or Store Mode, whichever you want to call it, thats fine thats your choice. There are people such as myself who like to save money on my power bill and want to make sure my tv lasts for a few years and having my Tv on a mode thats intended for Stores aint gonna make that happen. I will take a lower power bill and tv thats going to last longer in Home Mode anyday thank you. That being said....thanks for the info you posted though but it aint something I am going to do but others might give it a try and they may like it. To each is own as they say.
HaRd2BeAr's Avatar HaRd2BeAr 08:19 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Aaron let me know how it works out ok? I am thinking by "shop mode" tcruise7771 means store mode here in the States. Anyway let me know how it works for you. I aint touching it I know that. But I am interested in the results if you do it.

Well i have just put it in shop/store mode and at this moment it honestly looks exactly the same, though it's a rare sunny day here. Will leave it in store/shop mode for the time being but i'm not currently seeing the difference. Not sure if it even looks brighter.
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 09:05 AM 02-19-2013
Aaron is your TV an USA model?If so there might be no difference for home or shop mode.May be someone else can test also his USA unit,cos the difference really is huge for EU models
HaRd2BeAr's Avatar HaRd2BeAr 10:03 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

Aaron is your TV an USA model?If so there might be no difference for home or shop mode.May be someone else can test also his USA unit,cos the difference really is huge for EU models

Mines a EU model (UK).
steve1971's Avatar steve1971 10:04 AM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcruise7771 View Post

Aaron is your TV an USA model?If so there might be no difference for home or shop mode.May be someone else can test also his USA unit,cos the difference really is huge for EU models


Whether Aarons model is a U.S or EU model shouldnt make a difference because the features are the same except for the model numbers themselves. That being said I did try your Shop Mode setting even though I said I wouldnt and what I found was there was no difference at all.....none except for it turned a couple of features off. So I flipped it back to Home mode and thats where my tv will stay along with the settings I have.
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 12:34 PM 02-19-2013
Aaron , sorry i didn't seen that u had already said yours is UK , anyway yours should have difference in home and shop mode try taking pictures if possible with a fixed manual exposure/shutter/aperture/iso but you should be able to see difference ( unless may be u have the backlight on minimum then it wont be that big difference i guess so u should have the backlight set at least to 4 ) .
tcruise7771's Avatar tcruise7771 12:41 PM 02-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Whether Aarons model is a U.S or EU model shouldnt make a difference because the features are the same except for the model numbers themselves. That being said I did try your Shop Mode setting even though I said I wouldnt and what I found was there was no difference at all.....none except for it turned a couple of features off. So I flipped it back to Home mode and thats where my tv will stay along with the settings I have.


There is huge difference . For example i am in Bulgaria and i bought alpha camera Sony Nex 5R from USA so i will have the 1080@60p video recording instead of 1080@50p thats because of europe union regulations , even thought there is no real NTSC or PAL for HDTV , they split EUROPE to 25fps tv shows while usa has 24 ( 23.976 ) . Same goes for tv , even if they might use the same hardware , chips , matrixes and so they use Different firmware , some people use the service menu and switch to EUrope or USA to change having the option for 240 instead of 200 hz motion flow ( i am not talking for sony but some people do that ) . Also European sets are made for 220-240 Voltage . Usa ones are 110 V , so there is HUGE difference even if there was no such thing as the EUROPE UNION , it is messing with so many things wanting to make them "ECO" . I have been to USA couple of times and its a whole different world - from politics to people - Truth is everything is better , cheap electronics , good paychecks you even have 30 days return policy . Here such policy is none existant .
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