Why the lack of Full Array + Local dimming? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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A couple years ago I pre-ordered a Full array with local dimming LED tv and I could not be happier but now I'm looking for another TV and it just seems like all the manufacturers are shying way from making them. I want to blame Samsung for this b/c they had the niche with their LED tvs passing them on as "LED TV's instead of Edge-Lit LED which they make apparent now in their advertising but everyone soon followed since samsung was doing so well with their TV sales and the ignorance of the public about edge-lit vs full array. Anyway to get to the root of my question i would like to know what models are available now a days without breaking the bank. Seems like the only way to get a full array with local dimming now a days is spending at least close to $3k.

I just want a 2D Tv with these features.
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post #2 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 02:48 AM
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^^Apparently no models in your price range. Reason why this tech went dinos is that others are cheaper 2 make and more than good-enough for mass consumers.

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post #3 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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paying anything near 3k for a 40+ LED tv with these features is just not smart. I can afford it but I have not lost my mind to dump that kind of money.
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post #4 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetspeedz View Post

A couple years ago I pre-ordered a Full array with local dimming LED tv and I could not be happier but now I'm looking for another TV and it just seems like all the manufacturers are shying way from making them. I want to blame Samsung for this b/c they had the niche with their LED tvs passing them on as "LED TV's instead of Edge-Lit LED which they make apparent now in their advertising but everyone soon followed since samsung was doing so well with their TV sales and the ignorance of the public about edge-lit vs full array. Anyway to get to the root of my question i would like to know what models are available now a days without breaking the bank. Seems like the only way to get a full array with local dimming now a days is spending at least close to $3k.

I just want a 2D Tv with these features.

Samsung has a basic TV with direct LED, the EH series. I think they are still upto series 6 for now and would probably come upto series 8 with local dimming..
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post #5 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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The samsung models you noted are all edge lit and didn't even check to see if it had any dimming features.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN46EH...mparison_Chart

The only samsung that is not edge lit i remember from years ago was the 8000 series going for 5k while everyone else was between 2-3k.
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post #6 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetspeedz View Post

The samsung models you noted are all edge lit and didn't even check to see if it had any dimming features.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN46EH...mparison_Chart

The only samsung that is not edge lit i remember from years ago was the 8000 series going for 5k while everyone else was between 2-3k.

I can assure you and so with the rest of the people here, even ask a samsung sales person.. all the EH series are direct lit, its the reason why their backs are as thick as a cathode based LCD. I didnt mention they have local dimming because they dont but as I've said maybe a series 8 "EH" model ( when its out ) might come with local dimming.
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post #7 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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You are correct however they are not a true full array tv

"EH aren't fully back lit, the LEDs are spaced further apart so they can use less of them, hence the reason this is the lower level model. (This was the description from the Samsung trainer or at least close to it)"
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post #8 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 11:15 AM
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I also didnt mention that it was a full array, just a direct lit. " Full array " can be at anyone's description.. theres really been no standards AFAIK on how many LED's are there to be a 'full array set.
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post #9 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandemonium08 View Post

I also didnt mention that it was a full array, just a direct lit.

Fair enough, But the whole point of this thread is to find TV's with Full Array + Local dimming!
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post #10 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 11:41 AM
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Yes I understand, sorry for wasting your time.
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post #11 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 12:02 PM
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2011 top LCd's (Local Dimming) are Sharp Elite Pro and Sony XBR HX929 but they are expensive, the Sony XBR HX909(2010 3D Local Dimming) might be interesting if it's still for sale. Most Local Dimmings are top of the line, since 3D introduction most if not all top of the line TVs have 3D.

here is a past and present Local Dimming list
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...96&postcount=9
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post #12 of 71 Old 05-07-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, i actually saw your post and looked at those TV's before i posted this, I'm a little surprised who much the price has gone on up on these type of displays.

All the older 2010 models are no longer available. I was hoping to find a LE8500 which is exactly what im looking for but they are not available and vendors who do carry them are sketchy and asking 5k which is outrageous.
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post #13 of 71 Old 01-31-2013, 01:27 PM
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hey jetspeedz

im a lil slow on the uptake so bear with me pls

it just so happens what research ive done (as a non-techie) has lead me to think i want EXACTLY what you originally asked for- full arrray led backlit and local dimming ( &240 hz ideally)

I was wondering :

What did you end up getting? (And since the thread is quite old) Any idea what you or anyone would recoomend in todays market? For all I know these features are no longer definitive or state of the art but they do seem to be

I really dont care to pay extra for internet capability as i actually plan to use whatever i get as a 60 inch monitor. Same goes for 3D etc.
Im beginning to think the features i want arent even available unless i buy the top of the line and i dont wanna spend much more than a grand - $1500

Help!

THX
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post #14 of 71 Old 01-31-2013, 02:11 PM
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I'm no expert, but hopefully I can help you out.

The main reason for the lack of full array LEDs is the price. Full array LEDs require a more complex manufacturing process than edge LEDs, so in order to compensate, the companies charge a higher price. Right now, the best full array LED is the Sony 55" XH950. Those currently go for around $2700-3100.

Even though you prefer full array, you should still look into the 2013 edge LEDs. Over the years edge LED tech has continued to advance and this year is bringing some good TVs. Some of them are:

1. Samsung F8000: According to reports from CES 2013, this TV has accurate colors, high detail, plasma quality blacks and great uniformity (reports said there was no clouding ect.)

2. Sony W900: This TV has Sony's Triluminos LED technology. Also, Sony's edge LEDs usually have great uniformity.

Both of these TVs should start at below $2500 (depending on the size).
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post #15 of 71 Old 01-31-2013, 02:32 PM
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wow eclipsegt!

thx a ton for the swift reply. i was wondering if anyone would, given how long since any action here.

problem is i cant afford ANYBODYS flagship let alone a newly introduced one

any model suggestions in something older and like a grand cheaper? hehe Id say $1599 max

get back!

Mike
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post #16 of 71 Old 01-31-2013, 04:19 PM
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I am in the same boat as you, in fact, I'm sure most Americans are. Unfortunately, most of the 2012 edge lit LEDs have clouding and banding problems and the 2012 full array LEDs are still too expensive.

There are a couple things you can do:

1. You can wait until Black Friday. The TV prices will be much cheaper by then and you might be able to get a free sound bar or some other deal. This is what I'm going to do.

2. According to the ES8000 owners, a new firmware update fixed a lot of the uniformity issues. Both the Samsung ES8000 and the Sony XH950 will continue to get get cheaper as the new 2013 models start to come out. The bad thing is that the 2012 models will be hard to find as time goes on.

You should also keep an eye on Amazon.

Also you may be able to find a Samsung B8500 or a Sony hx929 for around your price range. However, they are both older models so they may be hard to find.
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post #17 of 71 Old 02-01-2013, 01:23 AM
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nowhere NEAR my price range lol
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post #18 of 71 Old 02-01-2013, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipsegt 
I am in the same boat as you, in fact, I'm sure most Americans are. Unfortunately, most of the 2012 edge lit LEDs have clouding and banding problems and the 2012 full array LEDs are still too expensive.

There are a couple things you can do:

1. You can wait until Black Friday. The TV prices will be much cheaper by then and you might be able to get a free sound bar or some other deal. This is what I'm going to do.

2. According to the ES8000 owners, a new firmware update fixed a lot of the uniformity issues. Both the Samsung ES8000 and the Sony XH950 will continue to get get cheaper as the new 2013 models start to come out. The bad thing is that the 2012 models will be hard to find as time goes on.

You should also keep an eye on Amazon.

Also you may be able to find a Samsung B8500 or a Sony hx929 for around your price range. However, they are both older models so they may be hard to find.

eventhough the 929 is an older model 950/929 PQ is very close, some even say there is no difference at all eek.gif

I saw a storedemo 46'' 929 - €1.600.
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post #19 of 71 Old 02-03-2013, 07:59 AM
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I didn't spend alot of money on my local dimming led's tv's,I just waited for a sale,maybe I got lucky.
I have an Samsung 40 in 81F LED local dimming (2007) that I paid 1000.00 for and the LG 55 in LV 9500 nano led local dimming 3D,I paid 1500. (2012)
The LG LV 9500 is an 2300 led 288 zones tv and almost as thin as an edge lit TV.
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post #20 of 71 Old 02-03-2013, 10:34 AM
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howdy 6
wow that 55 in. LG LV 9500 sounds like it would be IDEAL for me
Seems the model just isnt available anywhere anymore tho
I wonder what might have replaced it etc.....
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post #21 of 71 Old 02-03-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
wow that 55 in. LG LV 9500 sounds like it would be IDEAL for me
Seems the model just isnt available anywhere anymore tho
I wonder what might have replaced it etc.....
.

I belive it is the LG lm9600 55"
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post #22 of 71 Old 02-03-2013, 01:10 PM
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Just to be clear, "Direct Lit" LCDs are, in fact "full array". You probably will never see one with local dimming however.

The reason direct-lit LCD exists is that it's even cheaper than edge lit. It uses super simple LED modules, pre-fabbed, in a similar design to older CCFL models.

The chassis can't be as thin as edge-lit however, so it's not for high-end product.

Oh, and that "even cheaper" is why edge lit has pretty much meteor-to-the-Yucataned traditional full-array sets.

People don't want to pay for it so it's pretty much extinct.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #23 of 71 Old 02-05-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Just to be clear, "Direct Lit" LCDs are, in fact "full array". You probably will never see one with local dimming however.

The reason direct-lit LCD exists is that it's even cheaper than edge lit. It uses super simple LED modules, pre-fabbed, in a similar design to older CCFL models.

The chassis can't be as thin as edge-lit however, so it's not for high-end product.

Oh, and that "even cheaper" is why edge lit has pretty much meteor-to-the-Yucataned traditional full-array sets.

People don't want to pay for it so it's pretty much extinct.

if you go onto the LV9500 post you will see that it is full array local dimming and has one of the best pictures of 2012!
People will pay for it,just check out the new modles comming out.
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post #24 of 71 Old 02-05-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohamikel View Post

howdy 6
wow that 55 in. LG LV 9500 sounds like it would be IDEAL for me
Seems the model just isnt available anywhere anymore tho
I wonder what might have replaced it etc.....
The LV9500 was sold on HSN and after that I believe a couple of venders had them. The LM9600 did replace the LV9500 . THE LM9600 had some changes,one was passive 3D over the LV9500 active 3D.
The LM9600 had some changes also with the nano led's.
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post #25 of 71 Old 02-05-2013, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohamikel View Post

hey jetspeedz

im a lil slow on the uptake so bear with me pls

it just so happens what research ive done (as a non-techie) has lead me to think i want EXACTLY what you originally asked for- full arrray led backlit and local dimming ( &240 hz ideally)

I was wondering :

What did you end up getting? (And since the thread is quite old) Any idea what you or anyone would recoomend in todays market? For all I know these features are no longer definitive or state of the art but they do seem to be

I really dont care to pay extra for internet capability as i actually plan to use whatever i get as a 60 inch monitor. Same goes for 3D etc.
Im beginning to think the features i want arent even available unless i buy the top of the line and i dont wanna spend much more than a grand - $1500

Help!

THX

sorry to rain on your parade but
a 240h in 60'' will lag alot for a computer monitor
ok for netsurfing but not good for games

the bigger screens in 240h fake the extra frames 3 out 4 shown
and that takes time to do [ it has to wait to see the next frame]
before in can draw the extra fake frames to smooth the motions
results are lots of lag ain't teck great !!!

btw some have a real game mode but results are all over the place
and none are 0 lag just less MAYBE IN GAME MODE
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post #26 of 71 Old 02-06-2013, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

if you go onto the LV9500 post you will see that it is full array local dimming and has one of the best pictures of 2012!
People will pay for it,just check out the new modles comming out.

Correct my post to read "a tiny number of people will pay for it, but not enough to sustain anything resembling a robust market."

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #27 of 71 Old 02-06-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Correct my post to read "a tiny number of people will pay for it, but not enough to sustain anything resembling a robust market."

LV9500 55in 480hz LED nano 2300 led's 288 zones local dimming, active 3D THX certification,1500.00 dollars on HSN with free shipping. yeah! I did get a lot and I did not pay a lot!
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post #28 of 71 Old 02-06-2013, 03:30 PM
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On Home Shopping, at a closeout price, because it did not sell at retail, at a premium price.

Congrats on your good deal; do not confuse that for a robust market.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #29 of 71 Old 02-06-2013, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetspeedz View Post

paying anything near 3k for a 40+ LED tv with these features is just not smart. I can afford it but I have not lost my mind to dump that kind of money.

Then don't come on here and complain. Buy your sub-par Tv and be done with it.
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post #30 of 71 Old 02-07-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

On Home Shopping, at a closeout price, because it did not sell at retail, at a premium price.

Congrats on your good deal; do not confuse that for a robust market.

You reaally don,t know anything! LG made the LV9500 to be thier top tv in 2012 and made a lot of them before they decided to go with 3D passive and drop the active LV9500 3D tv.
The LG LV9500 made it to retail on HSN and sold out fast,then sold out on online venders.My gain your loss,no you are not looking for local dimming,just looking to complain!
I guess you have not looked at the post about Samsung's new 85in local dimming 4k TV? Full array and the reviews say it will be the best TV on the market because of the local dimming,beating out LG and Sony's 84in edge lit 4K tv.
So go back to your edge lit tv and give it a hug and be happy,it's still a good tv,just not the BEST!
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