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post #1 of 22 Old 05-07-2012, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to figure out something about LCD TV screens. I posted a similar thread in the Rear Projection section so forgive me for putting one here, too. I've seen several Blu-ray movies on my sister's high end LCD TV. The images are so clear and crisp the movies no longer look like movies anymore. Instead, you feel more like your standing next to the camera in the studio watching the actors doing the scene. I mean it visually makes you feel like you're in the same room with them.

This blows suspension of disbelief out of the water. So my question is...is this how LCD owners experience their movies or is my sister's TV screen adjusted improperly causing the movies to appear as I described? I have a rear projector which I am happy with but one day I may need to buy a new TV and I'm really hoping the experience I've had so far is what I have to look forward to.
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post #2 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 04:39 AM
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I watch a lot of blu-ray stuff. To me its more like easier to see when director messes up. Some scenes one can easily see everything is fake but a well done movie will look ok on a LCd. Just buy the LCd with the best blacks you can get and turn of smoothing options that are not vital.

Lot of folks here believe Plasma will give a more movieish experience. Anyway stuff like UltraHD and 48fps movies will do what you discribe to every flatscreen-tech.
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post #3 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 04:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrapser View Post

I'm trying to figure out something about LCD TV screens. I posted a similar thread in the Rear Projection section so forgive me for putting one here, too. I've seen several Blu-ray movies on my sister's high end LCD TV. The images are so clear and crisp the movies no longer look like movies anymore. Instead, you feel more like your standing next to the camera in the studio watching the actors doing the scene. I mean it visually makes you feel like you're in the same room with them.

This blows suspension of disbelief out of the water. So my question is...is this how LCD owners experience their movies or is my sister's TV screen adjusted improperly causing the movies to appear as I described? I have a rear projector which I am happy with but one day I may need to buy a new TV and I'm really hoping the experience I've had so far is what I have to look forward to.

That video look that you're seeing is a "motion enhancement" feature that most new TVs offer and is usually defeatable in the settings.

I use a Sharp 70" set and find picture quality to be fantastic, especially with a well mastered Blu ray. Also, any high quality HD tv show via Directv is excellent as is off air signals.
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post #4 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 05:06 AM
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This effect is seen by others. Some like it, some don't. Essentially it's the difference between the image feeling "realistic" (so you seem to be in the studio) and feeling "believable" (so you seem to be in the imagined world). I've read some discussions of it here on the forum which blame it on viewing movies at the 60fps video cadence instead of the 24fps film cadence.

This same effect seems to be disturbing some of the people who were at the recent preview at CinemaCon of The Hobbit, which is being recorded (not filmed -- they aren't using film) at 48fps instead of the standard movie speed of 24fps.

See, for example, http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/...-format-hobbit

and the discussion here at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1407427

Edited to add:
this is often called "the soap opera effect", since daily soap operas have always been done on video and not filmed.

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post #5 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrapser View Post

I'm trying to figure out something about LCD TV screens. I posted a similar thread in the Rear Projection section so forgive me for putting one here, too. I've seen several Blu-ray movies on my sister's high end LCD TV. The images are so clear and crisp the movies no longer look like movies anymore. Instead, you feel more like your standing next to the camera in the studio watching the actors doing the scene. I mean it visually makes you feel like you're in the same room with them.

This blows suspension of disbelief out of the water. So my question is...is this how LCD owners experience their movies or is my sister's TV screen adjusted improperly causing the movies to appear as I described? I have a rear projector which I am happy with but one day I may need to buy a new TV and I'm really hoping the experience I've had so far is what I have to look forward to.

Besides the hi-res provided by the Blu-ray material, check if your sister's TV has any sort of motion enhancement turned on. Turn off all the motion enhancement, particular any enhancement that generates new video frames, and see if the movie looks better. It could be the motion enhancement and not so much the Blu-ray res that is causing the issue.
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post #6 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 07:27 AM
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Thats what they call the "Soap Opera Effect" some people love it while others hate it, I love it when watching saops but I dislike it when matching 'moveis' as it removes the 'cinematic effect'
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post #7 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandemonium08 View Post

Thats what they call the "Soap Opera Effect" some people love it while others hate it, I love it when watching saops but I dislike it when matching 'moveis' as it removes the 'cinematic effect'

Yeah, I don't have much experience with Blu-ray, but I was wondering if perhaps his issue was not so much with the hi-res of Blu-ray, but with some sort of motion control on his sister's TV that was causing the "soap opera effect" you mention. I recall the first time watching a movie on my father's TV, I kept asking him what was wrong with the picture, it looked uncanny. Finally I realized it was the motion enhancement (frame interpolation), and turned it off.

My TV is only 60hz, so I don't have the option for interpolation anyway. But when shopping for TVs, I did test out the interpolation features on several TVs, to see if I wanted to spend more for a 120hz TV with that feature. When viewing some animated films I found the effect could in some cases be beneficial, but otherwise did not care for it.

I wonder how The Hobbit film will fare with its 48fps rate, seems like it got some bad buzz during a preview of some clips. I imagine it will be available in 24fps as well, so the effect if you will, could be turned off by the viewer.
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post #8 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 08:06 AM
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Most of those "240Hz" TV's are just 60Hz anyway, they just market up the numbers.. Take for example Samsung's 800CMR its only a 60Hz TV.
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post #9 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 09:57 AM
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I am not aware of any 120HZ or 240Hz LCD/LED TV that does not actually redisplay its screen from the contents of a separatly maintained software controlled image buffer by a TOC(Timing Output controller) at the the TV's rated refresh rate of 120 or 240Hz. Common input refresh rates are be 24,30, and 60 fps.
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post #10 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

I am not aware of any 120HZ or 240Hz LCD/LED TV that does not actually redisplay its screen from the contents of a separatly maintained software controlled image buffer by a TOC(Timing Output controller) at the the TV's rated refresh rate of 120 or 240Hz. Common input refresh rates are be 24,30, and 60 fps.

ALL modern-day HDTV LCD screens, even the most high-end ones, are 60 Hz at their core, and only offer 'addition Hz' by way of enhancements. I'd recommend anyone who has motion enhancements turned on, to enjoy their HD games and movies without these enhancements for the best experience. But, to each their own I suppose.

The only type of screens that are truly capable of displaying actual refresh rates higher than 60 Hz are PC monitors and screens.
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post #11 of 22 Old 05-09-2012, 08:53 AM
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I disagree. A 120Hz LCD TV refreshs at 120 HZ. If you turn off motion compensation then the TV firmware leaves incoming 60fps content in a software output buffer for 1/60th of a second which provides an effective fps of 60 since each frame is displayed twice using the content of the output buffer.
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post #12 of 22 Old 02-01-2013, 09:50 AM
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^^ There is no such thing as an LCD/LED TV that has a native refresh rate of over 60 Hz. At their base or core, they're all 60 Hz. Any additional hertz that you get for smoothing out motion, is by way of frame interpolation ONLY. Otherwise known as fake frames, which can often lead to unnatural movement at times, and other undesirable artifacts.
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post #13 of 22 Old 02-02-2013, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techfreak191 View Post

^^ There is no such thing as an LCD/LED TV that has a native refresh rate of over 60 Hz. At their base or core, they're all 60 Hz. Any additional hertz that you get for smoothing out motion, is by way of frame interpolation ONLY. Otherwise known as fake frames, which can often lead to unnatural movement at times, and other undesirable artifacts.

You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Lol... A 120hz or 240hz LCD TV *DEFINITELY* refreshes at 120hz and 240hz respectively.

The 120hz and 240hz are absolutely necessary for displaying 24p movies WITHOUT frame interpolation, when the output mode is selected as well.

You CANNOT play back a 24p movie on a 60hz set without judder, the frame rate doesn't divide evenly.

On a 120hz set with motion interpolation turned off with a 24p signal, each frame is displayed 5 times. A 240hz set? 10 times. With absolutely NO motion interpolation or judder.

When motion interpolation is turned on, 4 additional frames per frame are generated for 120hz sets, 9 additional frames for 240hz sets.

You CANNOT do motion interpolation properly on a LCD that has a native refresh rate of 60hz because, surprise, the frame rate cannot be divided evenly... which is why NO LCD that has a native refresh rate of 60hz has motion interpolation AT ALL.

Just because most 120hz/240hz sets don't accept an incoming 120hz or 240hz signal via HDMI (unless it's 3D), doesn't mean the LCD is not refreshing at 120hz or 240hz. And this is entirely the reason that LCD TVs running at 240hz typically have 3D that has much less ghosting when compared with a 120hz set doing 3D.

So, again, you're absolutely wrong... I don't know why you bothered to bump a post over a year old to post this misinformation.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #14 of 22 Old 02-04-2013, 12:41 AM
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Yeah yeah, we get it. I'm wrong... oh I'm soo wrooong....aii yaaaaiiii!! eek.gif

"You CANNOT play back a 24p movie on a 60hz set without judder, the frame rate doesn't divide evenly."

Since you're SO right, and ^^that has got to be absolutely true, why don't I experience judder when playing 24p movies? It's a 60 Hz screen, and there is NO judder in slow or fast panning sequences, day or night scenes, indoors or outdoors, just to give you a fair idea. smile.gif

What you are saying about the frames being divided when it comes to 120 Hz and 250 Hz sets is a fact, yes. But strictly talking about movies, a 60 Hz screen isn't inferior to a 250 Hz one, or even one that does 400 Hz or more.

Games come at 60 Hz, movies at less than that. However a 60 Hz LCD, if set up and tweaked right. will give you performance far better than a cinema screen.

Until and unless you have source content that runs at native 120/250 Hz, a screen higher than 60 Hz has no significant advantage, except maybe reduce the blur with fast moving images.

Fact: LCDs and LEDs will always exhibit a certain amount of blur, compared to Plasmas and CRTs.

Fact # 2: For 3D content, 120/250 Hz is quite useful

Fact # 3: If playing console games or watching DVD/Bluray movies is your primary use, anything above 60 Hz is not necessary. If you feel it is, then you're simply buying into the hype and marketing that's generated by motion enhancements.

Cheers then, enjoy your screen! biggrin.gif
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post #15 of 22 Old 02-04-2013, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techfreak191 View Post

Fact # 3: If playing console games or watching DVD/Bluray movies is your primary use, anything above 60 Hz is not necessary. If you feel it is, then you're simply buying into the hype and marketing that's generated by motion enhancements.

I got this Samsung LED/LCD CMR 240Hz is 120Hz native tv and blur is indeed minimal and almost as good as a plasma tv.
But the major problem is with all 30fps console games gives that crap framedoubling, since the consoles output doubles the 30fps up to 60fps=60Hz output.
The LCD blur cover on framedoubling is a bit nicer for the eye than a plasma, but still very visible choppy and distracting.

So why is this issue not solved or addressed by tv makers? Are they blind, they never play 30fps console games and notice the double frames?
They do make GAME MODE that only disables extra processing, so they did play games.

So for 30fps consolegames, they should make a double-frame reduction gamemode to get rid of that horrid framedoubling.
But guess that won't be happening, since most people aren't visually able or concerned with this 30fps games issue.
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post #16 of 22 Old 02-05-2013, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iBrad View Post

I got this Samsung LED/LCD CMR 240Hz is 120Hz native tv and blur is indeed minimal and almost as good as a plasma tv.
But the major problem is with all 30fps console games gives that crap framedoubling, since the consoles output doubles the 30fps up to 60fps=60Hz output.
The LCD blur cover on framedoubling is a bit nicer for the eye than a plasma, but still very visible choppy and distracting.

So why is this issue not solved or addressed by tv makers? Are they blind, they never play 30fps console games and notice the double frames?
They do make GAME MODE that only disables extra processing, so they did play games.

So for 30fps consolegames, they should make a double-frame reduction gamemode to get rid of that horrid framedoubling.
But guess that won't be happening, since most people aren't visually able or concerned with this 30fps games issue.

As I said mate, motion enhancements are largely marketing gimmicks. There isn't ANY content out there that supports anything higher than 60 Hz. So if you want to get accelerated frames, unnatural movement, or the "soap opera" effect, I suppose turning on those enhancement is a good idea.

Plasmas and CRTs are indeed best when it comes to crisp, clear and natural-looking movement. LCD and LED technology has in no way reached it's pinnacle and has quite a distance to go.

However, I'd still pick an LCD over Plasma for gaming!
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post #17 of 22 Old 02-05-2013, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techfreak191 

As I said mate, motion enhancements are largely marketing gimmicks. There isn't ANY content out there that supports anything higher than 60 Hz. So if you want to get accelerated frames, unnatural movement, or the "soap opera" effect, I suppose turning on those enhancement is a good idea.
ehh... the top LCd's are beyond 60Hz, only cheap models are 60Hz. Higher than 60Hz LCd's need faster panels, above that full array local dimming makes LCd faster. So when you turn of Motion Interpolation you will have a faster/better quality TV.
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Originally Posted by techfreak191 
Plasmas and CRTs are indeed best when it comes to crisp, clear and natural-looking movement. LCD and LED technology has in no way reached it's pinnacle and has quite a distance to go.
LCd motion is good enough. btw there is non such thing as ''clear and-natural-looking movement''. In TVtech motion has its limits, not as good as real world movement.
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post #18 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 05:10 AM
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^^Not as good as real world movement.... well of course not Inspector Gadget!

*Among* HD TV screens, CRTs and Plasmas exhibit the best motion resolution. LEDs and LCDs... blur will always be there, even though it is less noticeable compared to screens that are say 5 years old, or older than that.

What's your primary use BTW?
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post #19 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techfreak191 
^^Not as good as real world movement.... well of course not Inspector Gadget!

*Among* HD TV screens, CRTs and Plasmas exhibit the best motion resolution. LEDs and LCDs... blur will always be there, even though it is less noticeable compared to screens that are say 5 years old, or older than that.

What's your primary use BTW?
I watch mainly blu-ray's and HDsatellite TV, always in a dim room on my pro-calibrated 100Hz XBR8. I turned of all of the motion smoothing options because i don't like it (and see no need for it). Motion and blur is not much of a problem on a decent post 2008 LCd when you watch the best sources available imo.
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post #20 of 22 Old 02-08-2013, 02:35 AM
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I own a Bravia 40S400A. I believe it's a 2008 model. Blur's not a problem. But you're right..screens that were specially released after 2009, had less blur.
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post #21 of 22 Old 02-08-2013, 04:11 AM
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You can download here a short 30fps vs 60 fps testclip:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1456808/30fps-vs-60fps-motion-test-frame-doubling-motion-smoother-cmr-trumotion-motionflow-etc

On a plasma tv, it'll be blurless, only framedoubling at 30fps is more visible!
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post #22 of 22 Old 02-08-2013, 10:31 AM
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Roger that!

I've been a long time gamer, intially PC... before moving on to consoles.

Difference between 30 fps and 60 fps games is clear as daylight! And yes, Plasmas have indeed the best motion resolution, but it's just not a good long-term and practical fix for gaming.

Yes, this is what these motion enhancements do: the refresh rate essentially is the same (60 Hz), it's only the frames that are being doubled, by inserting artificial frames between each frame. AKA frame interpolation.

This is why I've never bought into the marketing hype that surrounds TVs with high or ultra high refresh rates (some of them boast 600 Hz).

Grateful to be able to own an HDTV, and I'm extracting quite a lot of pleasure out of it, to this day! biggrin.gif
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