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post #31 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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The point was not to incite arguments. I am glad to see a few people understand what I am talking about. I work hard for my money and $1500 to $2000 is a significant purchase in my household. I am not content to settle for half assed performance because the asthetics are there. It just infuriates me that the manufacturers are perfectly ok with taking people's money and giving them a product where flashlighting, bleed and clouding are "just the nature of the design". It's ridiculous. So as others suggested, I took my money elsewhere. The passive 3D was fantastic. I will give it to LG there. But IMO $1800 for a TV is not cheap. This isn't a Walmart special. You get what you pay for doesn't fly with me in this respect. Yes I could have dropped $3500 on a Panny VT but I like to live in the real world where my children have a college fund, my bills are paid and I don't have creditors calling me.

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post #32 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

The point was not to incite arguments. I am glad to see a few people understand what I am talking about. I work hard for my money and $1500 to $2000 is a significant purchase in my household. I am not content to settle for half assed performance because the asthetics are there. It just infuriates me that the manufacturers are perfectly ok with taking people's money and giving them a product where flashlighting, bleed and clouding are "just the nature of the design". It's ridiculous. So as others suggested, I took my money elsewhere. The passive 3D was fantastic. I will give it to LG there. But IMO $1800 for a TV is not cheap. This isn't a Walmart special. You get what you pay for doesn't fly with me in this respect. Yes I could have dropped $3500 on a Panny VT but I like to live in the real world where my children have a college fund, my bills are paid and I don't have creditors calling me.

I don't see why you are making a Federal case out of this. You returned the tv and now have a plasma. That should have been the end of the matter. Many people are very happy with their lcd televisions, apparently you weren't.
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post #33 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:02 PM
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People (Defenders) No reason to attack the guy... He just gave his observation, and it can be very helpful to unknowing buyers.
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post #34 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikewarrior View Post

People (Defenders) No reason to attack the guy... He just gave his observation, and it can be very helpful to unknowing buyers.

I agree. This thread is not about LED-LCD vs. Plasma but rather about the kind of thing that passes for quality control with many edge-lit LED-LCD TVs today (but not all equally, so YMMV).

For the record, I'm not a plasma fan despite my screen name (it was created quite a while ago based on a Panasonic Plasma that was my first HDTV). Most of my TVs at home are CCFL-LCDs, which don't have uniformity issues like those found on many edge-lit LED-LCDs.
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post #35 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm happy with my 2 lcds and my 2 plasmas. Not the edge lit LED.

Shouldnt the quality on a new $1800 tv be as good or better than a 4 year old Samsung LCD that was mid tier at best?

Say you hired a landscaper. You come home from work and all looks fantastic. Then you notice they missed some spots at the outer edges, cut the grass uneven and forgot to trim the bushes. Then they charged you double what you would normally pay. When you call them up they tell you that's just how they work. But a lot of your neighbors use us and they really like us. Do you just let it slide? Then you have to fight with them to get your money back or have them come back 2 or 3 times until its done right. How's that any different?

I'm not trying to anger LED owners. Obviously there are many on here because of the responses I have gotten. It's human nature to defend your choices. That's fine. If you are happy that is ultimately the best thing. Great. I'm just irritated by the whole situation.

I'm done posting on here now as I really have made my point and have said all that I wanted on the subject.

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post #36 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 100/40 View Post

cjsiv I agree with your post. LED is the new catch word. It's the latest. Gotta have it. Question, do you have a LED tv or an LCD tv? Most people don't know they probably have a new LCD tv, with LED lighting. That whole LED word is misleading. I truly believe some folks think they have a true all LED tv. They think they are staring at thousands of tiny LEDs.

It's is the next thing needed generate sales, nothing less.

that's the true nature of marketing in the consumer electronics industry
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post #37 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:22 PM
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You should have got a sony hx850, and you would not have had those problems. That tv you got is for 3-d and looking pretty, when off.
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post #38 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vincevega44 View Post

You should have got a sony hx850, and you would not have had those problems. That tv you got is for 3-d and looking pretty, when off.

The Sony is also $1000 more.

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post #39 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

The Sony is also $1000 more.

46" is not. The picture on that edge led is amazing.

As you said if you want a big screen with a great picture get a panasonic plasma. The picture will be very good on something like a gt50, but you have to deal with buzzing and burn in possibly.
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post #40 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

The Sony is also $1000 more.

I got the HX820 55" for less than 1800 and it has a mind blowingly good picture. The thinness is an added bonus. I dont see any screen defets. Watching a blu ray is an amazing experience. Jet black - blacks and nice bright whites.

I cant understand how anyone could say the picture on this LED tv is crappy.

PLAZMA OU or whatever your name is, you obviously spend a lot of time here based on all your posts and probably have learned a thing or two.... but you say 'people buy LED tvs for the wrong reasons' ...please.
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post #41 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 07:06 PM
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ccfl lcds didn't have these uniformity issues. Marketing hype has eliminated that choice in all but smaller screen sizes.

The average "civilian" buyer walks into the showroom and buys the brightest, thinnest, most "feature" laden set they can afford and actually never notices the clouding and flashlighting.

I've talked to the service tech who works for the store where I work and asked him if he'd seen lots of flashlighting and clouding--he said yes, definitely. I then asked if anyone had ever complained about it and he said not a single customer.

Until this becomes an issue with the average buyer whose main concern is having the thinnest bezel, not pq, we're kinda stuck.

Steve S.
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post #42 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

Until this becomes an issue with the average buyer whose main concern is having the thinnest bezel, not pq, we're kinda stuck.

Guilty as charge!

But then I *only* paid $900 and it came with freebie accessories.

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #43 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

ccfl lcds didn't have these uniformity issues.

Strictly speaking they did, at least at one time. Here is a mega-sized thread from over 6 years ago where people discussed/complained of their Sony LCD panels with CCFL backlights (LED backlights did not exist back then) having these issues...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748779
I had these issues first hand with my 2005 Sony LCD panel (paid $1500 for a 32-inch!) and even suggested ways to alleviate them (loosening screws, screen rubbing) in that thread. When I was recently in the market for a new LCD TV, I was surprised to see that this is still an issue with todays LCDs.

Nonetheless, my personal "belief" is that ALL LCD panels out there have some degree of cloudiness/flashlighting. Some panels are worse than others. It must (still) be a technological/manufacturing limitation to produce an LCD panel with 100% uniform backlighting. And if they do really tighten their quality control and throw out the ones that are "worse", then that would really drive up the prices in a very competive market.

And the thing with LCD cloudiness/flashlighting (or "mura" as it is called in the industry) is that it certainly doesn't make a panel totally unwatchable. You can only notice the mura when watching dark scenes in a dark room. It is just an annoyance to those who notice and are bothered by it, myself included.
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post #44 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 06:31 AM
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I agree that edge lit LED/LCD is a severely flawed technology. But as others have stated, the pencil pushers at the companies have determnined that the vast majority of the buying public are more interested in gimmicks like thinness and 3D than they are in PQ. They certainly have the technological ability to make a much higher PQ television but the market has not demanded it.

Most of us here interested in high PQ will just have to wait for AMO-LED to become the norm. It shouldn't be that much longer.
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post #45 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 06:34 AM
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I went though the same back in 2008 when shopping for LCD.

The disappointing aspect is that manufacturers aren't so intere$ted in improving the current (whatever-it-is) technology, because sales would be limited to the people who have not already bought a flat panel.

So, most people won't shell out a large sum of money to replace their working LCD sets just because the new one has slightly better PQ. They might, however, if it's got new features or tech. So, IMO, quality is in fact negatively affected by the *need* of constantly bringing something new/different to the table (to drive up sales).
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post #46 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 06:46 AM
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What were you playing? Bluray TV?
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post #47 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

I agree that edge lit LED/LCD is a severely flawed technology. But as others have stated, the pencil pushers at the companies have determnined that the vast majority of the buying public are more interested in gimmicks like thinness and 3D than they are in PQ. They certainly have the technological ability to make a much higher PQ television but the market has not demanded it.

Most of us here interested in high PQ will just have to wait for AMO-LED to become the norm. It shouldn't be that much longer.

I don't understand whats happening or I have been incredibly lucky. I just bought (3 wks ago) an edge lit Samsung 55 inch 6100 series, and it has the best PQ of any HD TV. I have owned. Currently I have a 37 inch Sharp, 32 inch Vizio and 52 inch Samsung CCFL TV's and there is no comparison in PQ with my new TV.

Cheers
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post #48 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerlman View Post

I got the HX820 55" for less than 1800 and it has a mind blowingly good picture. The thinness is an added bonus. I dont see any screen defets. Watching a blu ray is an amazing experience. Jet black - blacks and nice bright whites.

I cant understand how anyone could say the picture on this LED tv is crappy.

PLAZMA OU or whatever your name is, you obviously spend a lot of time here based on all your posts and probably have learned a thing or two.... but you say 'people buy LED tvs for the wrong reasons' ...please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

ccfl lcds didn't have these uniformity issues. Marketing hype has eliminated that choice in all but smaller screen sizes.

The average "civilian" buyer walks into the showroom and buys the brightest, thinnest, most "feature" laden set they can afford and actually never notices the clouding and flashlighting.

I've talked to the service tech who works for the store where I work and asked him if he'd seen lots of flashlighting and clouding--he said yes, definitely. I then asked if anyone had ever complained about it and he said not a single customer.

Until this becomes an issue with the average buyer whose main concern is having the thinnest bezel, not pq, we're kinda stuck.

Nerlman, I think Steve's post addresses the points you make quite well. Not all edge-lit LED-LCDs are equally bad but this problem is far more commonplace than some would wish to admit or even realize in the first place. It's the main reason I have steered away from the edge-lit LED-LCDs when making recent TV purchases within the last 3-4 years or so.

At the moment if I was to buy a LED-LCD, it would have to be full-array with uniformity on par with the best CCFL-LCDs of recent years. I currently have a LG 42LK450 as my bedroom TV and while I only paid $450 for it and it's an entry level 1080p 60Hz CCFL-LCD, it has great uniformity for an LCD and far better than many edge-lit LED-LCDs costing 4-5 times as much. It's PQ might be inferior in other respects like contrast ratio and black levels, but not uniformity (which is near perfect).
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post #49 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

I agree that edge lit LED/LCD is a severely flawed technology. But as others have stated, the pencil pushers at the companies have determnined that the vast majority of the buying public are more interested in gimmicks like thinness and 3D than they are in PQ. They certainly have the technological ability to make a much higher PQ television but the market has not demanded it.

Most of us here interested in high PQ will just have to wait for AMO-LED to become the norm. It shouldn't be that much longer.

When I said "people buy LED tvs for the wrong reasons" this is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to. TVs shouldn't look better when their off than when their on.
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post #50 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 03:15 PM
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Here a good example of a pricey edge-lit LED-LCD that suffers from serious uniformity issues: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1409806
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post #51 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 03:29 PM
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This thread serves as an excellent reminder that this forum is largely filled with TV owners and not videophiles.

"Experience is the one thing you can't get for nothing." - Oscar Wilde
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post #52 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 05:59 PM
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I've owned a dozen LCD TVs as well as some LED LCD TVs and as long as I'm not running the set in torch mode (which you shouldn't be), I've had no real problem with clouding or flash-lighting. The only time any of my sets have ever looked bad is when the brightness or back light was cranked, which is just the way LCDs typically are.

That said, some plasma models have become ridiculously thin in the last couple years, so slim factor shouldn't be a reason to sway people anymore. I think it's mostly the brighter, more vibrant picture, that automatically attracts people.

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Of course, I got it modified with the TK-427, which cheeks it up another, maybe, 3 or 4 quads per channel.
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post #53 of 53 Old 05-18-2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I've had a 46" Sharp for two years. No distractions at all for me...

My experience exactly. Couldn't be happier.
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