Fed up with LED - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Let me begin by saying that this is not intended to start an argument or debate. I do not favor one type of technology over another. I feel that they all have their purpose. I've just had a very stressful past 3 weeks and I think it's kind of ridiculous what TV manufacturers expect consumers to accept.

Let me start by saying that I have both LCD and plasma in my house for several years. I have been very happy with both. A few weeks ago I decided to ditch my Epson front projector as it was getting a little dated and get a TV a bit bigger than my 50 inch Panny plasma. To keep this short, I initially chose a 60 inch LG plasma(60PM6700) but exchanged it due to a defect in the panel. Hey, it happens. I decided to try out one of the new 3D LED sets (55LM6700). They gave me a healthy discount since I had to mount and unmount the plasma. There also were some delivery issues but that's beside the point.

Now this was a $1800 TV that I normally wouldn't have bought but did because of the discount. I loved the looks of the set, but it was usually out of my price range. I was quite thrilled to be getting it. Bottom line, I really wanted it to work out.

Set it up. Beautiful design, many features, 3D was amazing, but.......the flashlight, clouding and overall 2d picture looked like complete garbage. I spent a lot of time reading threads here before I swapped the plasma for the LED and figured it would be ok. When I returned the LED I was told that it really wasn't a defect but a preference that I didn't like how the picture looked. I got a refund and went elsewhere. I now have a 60 inch LG plasma (entry level, no apps, wifi, 3D, etc.) and the picture is far better than the LED for double the price.

Like I stated earlier, I'm not starting a which is better debate. My point is, from what I have read here, most all edge lit LED sets have clouding and flashlight issues along with uneven black levels due to the nature of the design. I really wanted a sleek new LED set but I couldn't live with the display. It pisses me off that LG, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, etc, etc sell $1500-$3000 products and can't even provide a picture free from distraction. But hey, they gave us apps, 3D and wifi. Oh, and it looks pretty on your wall. Just don't try to watch anything on it. It totally feels like we are paying to use beta products. You shouldn't have to run the panel crap shoot. It's not practical to have a retailer open every box so that you can choose the one with the least issues or return the TV 4 times until you get one that you can live with.

I do realize that full array solves some of these issues but seems to be reserved for the flagship models mainly. And some of those exhibit the same issues even with the array. Not that conventional LCD was perfect, but you pretty much can't find one anymore. Everything has been transitioning to LED.

But, I guess that's a representation of society today. We will pay tons of $$ for something that looks pretty but performs like crap.

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post #2 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 07:30 AM
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this issue has already been beaten into the gound.

If you have a dark room, or dont mind pulling the curtains - plasma is probably a better choice. If you have a bright room with lots of windows and dont want to pull the curtains when you watch tv, LCD/LED is probably better.

I have a 2006 Sony LCD and a 2011 Sony LED. There is no comparison as to the picture quality. The LED is far superior.
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post #3 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 07:42 AM
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I've had a 46" Sharp for two years. No distractions at all for me.

It's a matter of personal expectation(s), critical observation(s) and research.

I'm glad you're happy with your new plasma.
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post #4 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I realize it's been beaten to death. The point wasn't that I ended up with a plasma. Like I said. I have both plasma and LCD. The problem is that people (myself included) paid a premium for these LED tvs and the forum is rampant with complaints about issues. I realize this forum is a small sampling of usually picky people, but it just sucks when everywhere you go the slim LED sets are being pushed and the Issues haven't been fixed.

I really wanted it to work out but I couldn't get past the damn flashlight and cloudiness.

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post #5 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 08:30 AM
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Either way... you tried an LED side-array backlit set (even after the "rampant complaints") and didn't like it.

So, if you didn't want to get another front projector, couldn't find a large enough set with a CCFL backlight or didn't want to splurge for a full-array LED backlight, then you probably will be happy(er) with the plasma.
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post #6 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 09:53 AM
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Once again another person wants top pic for not-so-top dollar. For anyone who is saying that flashlighting or clouding does not exist on an edge-lit led set is (sorry to be confrontational) lying.

If you want to walk with the big dogs you need to learn to piss in the tall grass too.

Don't expect flagship pq from non-flagship models.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$
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post #7 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 10:02 AM
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"flagship quality" used to have nothing to do with "flash lighting" "clouding" "blooming" "horrendous motion-handling" etc.

It USED to (and rightfully so) largely mean that you were getting a display with better color fidelity, contrast, and black levels amongst other trad PQ improvements. Features and flexibility options are of course icing on the cake (at best) for most who are serious about top-shelf PQ and the money they spend to get it.

Now that has been turned on its ear. Some (not all) purchasers of these 1500-$3000 televisions are finding they are "pre-loaded" with SIGNIFICANT problems that go beyond what used to be typical PQ drawbacks. Go figure.

So, many consumers are speaking with their wallets of course and spending their money on another tech that is also imperfect, but with a MUCH smaller number of significant "defects" - meaning those that MOST find unacceptable or particularly glaring.

Guess the tech?

Yep. Again, both are imperfect, but one has (and likely, always will) have more crippling, deal-breaking issues than the other.

And yep, the other will almost certainly always be brighter and a huge number will buy those based nearly solely on that premise alone.

Again...go figure.

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post #8 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

For anyone who is saying that flashlighting or clouding does not exist on an edge-lit led set is (sorry to be confrontational) lying.

I guess I'm a happy liar that hasn't seen it... nor "looking" for it.
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post #9 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

"flagship quality" used to have nothing to do with "flash lighting" "clouding" "blooming" "horrendous motion-handling" etc.

It USED to (and rightfully so) largely mean that you were getting a display with better color fidelity, contrast, and black levels amongst other trad PQ improvements. Features and flexibility options are of course icing on the cake (at best) for most who are serious about top-shelf PQ and the money they spend to get it.

Now that has been turned on its ear. Some (not all) purchasers of these 1500-$3000 televisions are finding they are "pre-loaded" with SIGNIFICANT problems that go beyond what used to be typical PQ drawbacks. Go figure.

So, many consumers are speaking with their wallets of course and spending their money on another tech that is also imperfect, but with a MUCH smaller number of significant "defects" - meaning those that MOST find unacceptable or particularly glaring.

Guess the tech?

Yep. Again, both are imperfect, but one has (and likely, always will) have more crippling, deal-breaking issues than the other.

And yep, the other will almost certainly always be brighter and a huge number will buy those based nearly solely on that premise alone.

Again...go figure.

James

My point exactly. These tvs are shipped with these issues and for the price you pay, you are supposed to just accept it? I guess I was mistaken when I thought a $2000 tv should display a uniform picture. How foolish of me. Guess that only happens at $3000 and above nowadays.

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post #10 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 01:27 PM
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Sounds like u fell in love with LED just to find out she has 10 kids and not a natural blonde!

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #11 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 01:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

Let me begin by saying that this is not intended to start an argument or debate. I do not favor one type of technology over another. I feel that they all have their purpose. I've just had a very stressful past 3 weeks and I think it's kind of ridiculous what TV manufacturers expect consumers to accept.

Let me start by saying that I have both LCD and plasma in my house for several years. I have been very happy with both. A few weeks ago I decided to ditch my Epson front projector as it was getting a little dated and get a TV a bit bigger than my 50 inch Panny plasma. To keep this short, I initially chose a 60 inch LG plasma(60PM6700) but exchanged it due to a defect in the panel. Hey, it happens. I decided to try out one of the new 3D LED sets (55LM6700). They gave me a healthy discount since I had to mount and unmount the plasma. There also were some delivery issues but that's beside the point.

Now this was a $1800 TV that I normally wouldn't have bought but did because of the discount. I loved the looks of the set, but it was usually out of my price range. I was quite thrilled to be getting it. Bottom line, I really wanted it to work out.

Set it up. Beautiful design, many features, 3D was amazing, but.......the flashlight, clouding and overall 2d picture looked like complete garbage. I spent a lot of time reading threads here before I swapped the plasma for the LED and figured it would be ok. When I returned the LED I was told that it really wasn't a defect but a preference that I didn't like how the picture looked. I got a refund and went elsewhere. I now have a 60 inch LG plasma (entry level, no apps, wifi, 3D, etc.) and the picture is far better than the LED for double the price.

Like I stated earlier, I'm not starting a which is better debate. My point is, from what I have read here, most all edge lit LED sets have clouding and flashlight issues along with uneven black levels due to the nature of the design. I really wanted a sleek new LED set but I couldn't live with the display. It pisses me off that LG, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, etc, etc sell $1500-$3000 products and can't even provide a picture free from distraction. But hey, they gave us apps, 3D and wifi. Oh, and it looks pretty on your wall. Just don't try to watch anything on it. It totally feels like we are paying to use beta products. You shouldn't have to run the panel crap shoot. It's not practical to have a retailer open every box so that you can choose the one with the least issues or return the TV 4 times until you get one that you can live with.

I do realize that full array solves some of these issues but seems to be reserved for the flagship models mainly. And some of those exhibit the same issues even with the array. Not that conventional LCD was perfect, but you pretty much can't find one anymore. Everything has been transitioning to LED.

But, I guess that's a representation of society today. We will pay tons of $$ for something that looks pretty but performs like crap.

Bottom line, you bought a relatively inexpensive tv and expected it to perform like an Elite. You get what you pay for.
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post #12 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I guess I'm a happy liar that hasn't seen it... nor "looking" for it.

what TV do you have? have other owners of your model reported uniformity issues?


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post #13 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

Once again another person wants top pic for not-so-top dollar. For anyone who is saying that flashlighting or clouding does not exist on an edge-lit led set is (sorry to be confrontational) lying.

If you want to walk with the big dogs you need to learn to piss in the tall grass too.

Don't expect flagship pq from non-flagship models.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$

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Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Bottom line, you bought a relatively inexpensive tv and expected it to perform like an Elite. You get what you pay for.

you don't need to spend that kind of money ($4000-$5000) to get a uniform display; what a load of bs

good uniformity is not a luxury only reserved for those willing to pay top dollar


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post #14 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

But, I guess that's a representation of society today. We will pay tons of $$ for something that looks pretty but performs like crap.

Your post is nothing more than a cleverly disguised way of saying plasma is great and LED sucks. If that were the case LED tv mfgrs would be out of business as no one would pay more money for a worse tv.


The picture on my Sony LED tv is awesome and easily as good as any tv (plasma or otherwise) I have ever seen.
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post #15 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

My point exactly. These tvs are shipped with these issues and for the price you pay, you are supposed to just accept it? I guess I was mistaken when I thought a $2000 tv should display a uniform picture. How foolish of me. Guess that only happens at $3000 and above nowadays.

no, you should not accept it NOR should you be forced to buy a flagship model just to get decent uniformity


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post #16 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 02:19 PM
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Your post is nothing more than a cleverly disguised way of saying plasma is great and LED sucks. If that were the case LED tv mfgrs would be out of business as no one would pay more money for a worse tv.


The picture on my Sony LED tv is awesome and easily as good as any tv (plasma or otherwise) I have ever seen.

the edge-lit LEDs sell in large numbers because they have ultra-thin panels and bezels and have the brightest picture... in other words, for all the wrong reasons (not actual PQ)


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post #17 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

the edge-lit LEDs sell in large numbers because they have ultra-thin panels and bezels and have the brightest picture... in other words, for all the wrong reasons (not actual PQ)

If you dont care about thinness just buy a rear projection tv.

If you want a thin tv to mount on the wall (as in my case) my tv blows away any plasma I have seen. And the picture quality is better in my bright room.

So to say they are sold for all the wrong reasons is an idiotic statement.
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post #18 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Bottom line, you bought a relatively inexpensive tv and expected it to perform like an Elite. You get what you pay for.

No. That would be inky blacks, amazing colors and no motion artifacts. Migrating from plasma, I wanted brighter, less burn in possibility having two kids and the 3d was pretty good. If it could just render an image without lighting issues it would have been a keeper.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

you don't need to spend that kind of money ($4000-$5000) to get a uniform display; what a load of bs

good uniformity is not a luxury only reserved for those willing to pay top dollar

So you're saying that any cheap tv should perform like an expensive tv???? What planet do you come from.
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post #20 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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If you dont care about thinness just buy a rear projection tv.

If you want a thin tv to mount on the wall (as in my case) my tv blows away any plasma I have seen. And the picture quality is better in my bright room.

So to say they are sold for all the wrong reasons is an idiotic statement.

Thin TVs can be be certain plasmas (which are about as thick as edge-lit LEDs) and even CCFL-LCDs and regular plasmas aren't that thick nowadays (my LCD is only 3.0 inches thick). No need to go to extreme examples like RPTVs.

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Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

So you're saying that any cheap tv should perform like an expensive tv???? What planet do you come from.

I see you're using binary logic here. There aren't just cheap TVs and expensive TVs out there, but many levels in between. Also, uniformity is important at any price range and this is something the manufacturers need to understand. Even Samsung's 8000 and 9000 series edge-lit LEDs (like the C and D models) have serious uniformity issues reported in many cases.


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post #21 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

No. That would be inky blacks, amazing colors and no motion artifacts. Migrating from plasma, I wanted brighter, less burn in possibility having two kids and the 3d was pretty good. If it could just render an image without lighting issues it would have been a keeper.

Now that's a reasonable point of view.


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post #22 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


I see you're using binary logic here. There aren't just cheap TVs and expensive TVs out there, but many levels in between. Also, uniformity is important at any price range and this is something the manufacturers need to understand. Even Samsung's 8000 and 9000 series edge-lit LEDs (like the C and D models) have serious uniformity issues reported in many cases.

There are also many levels of plasma tvs. Different issues but troublesome nonetheless. The owner of a high end plasma tv would be horrified at the pq of a cheap plasma. My original statement stands "you get what you pay for".
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post #23 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:27 PM
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My original statement stands "you get what you pay for".

yet it still doesn't apply to the kind of issues the OP had with a $1800 LED set


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post #24 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

what TV do you have? have other owners of your model reported uniformity issues?

Sharp LC-46LE820UN
Others may have gripes (and you can search for them), but mine is just dandy.
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post #25 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:30 PM
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Sharp LC-46LE820UN
Others may have gripes (and you can search for them), but mine is just dandy.

probably two reasons for this:

1) you got a good panel with minimal uniformity issues for that specific model/make

2) you're not too critical when it comes to evaluating PQ in areas like dark scenes with a lot of black on-screen


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post #26 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

yet it still doesn't apply to the kind of issues the OP had with a $1800 LED set

And how is it that you know that he didn't get a defective set?
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post #27 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 04:16 PM
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And how is it that you know that he didn't get a defective set?

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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

When I returned the LED I was told that it really wasn't a defect but a preference that I didn't like how the picture looked.

According to the salespeople/customer service, the OP was told such behavior is typical for this TV type. Of course, nobody prefers to have uniformity issues like flash-lighting and clouding so that statement is only half correct.

However, such uniformity issues are posted in this LCD forum all the time and while some samples of a given model/make might be worse than others, such issues are generally believed to be a inherent flaw of the edge-lit LED backlight technology that enables ultra-slim panels and the little to no-bezel look. It is a trade-off for having a super slim all-screen only TV and price is not a relevant factor here.

The flagship models can have better uniformity if they give up a little panel depth and bezel thickness for more uniform backlighting (full array with a lot of LEDs). However, edge-lit flagship & high end models can still suffer from uniformity issues. Also, you can now get some full-array sets for lower prices like the Samsung EH series (though even those have some degree of uniformity issues, on par with comparable CCFL sets).


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post #28 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 04:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

According to the salespeople/customer service, the OP was told such behavior is typical for this TV type. Of course, nobody prefers to have uniformity issues like flash-lighting and clouding so that statement is only half correct.

However, such uniformity issues are posted in this LCD forum all the time and while some samples of a given model/make might be worse than others, such issues are generally believed to be a inherent flaw of the edge-lit LED backlight technology that enables ultra-slim panels and the little to no-bezel look. It is a trade-off for having a super slim all-screen only TV and price is not a relevant factor here.

The flagship models can have better uniformity if they give up a little panel depth and bezel thickness for more uniform backlighting (full array with a lot of LEDs). However, edge-lit flagship & high end models can still suffer from uniformity issues. Also, you can now get some full-array sets for lower prices like the Samsung EH series (though even those have some degree of uniformity issues, on par with comparable CCFL sets).

If you can't live with the problems that an led tv might exhibit, simply don't buy one. Apparently a lot of people find an led/lcd tv to be perfectly acceptable. I have to side with Ratman on this one. I have a Sharp 70LE732 and still marvel at how good the PQ is. As far as I'm concerned, I got one of the best deals in town with the Sharp. It's a true bargain for a 70 inch set and I can watch it even when there is quite a bit of light coming through my picture window. (try that with a plasma)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post22002781
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post #29 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 04:55 PM
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cjsiv I agree with your post. LED is the new catch word. It's the latest. Gotta have it. Question, do you have a LED tv or an LCD tv? Most people don't know they probably have a new LCD tv, with LED lighting. That whole LED word is misleading. I truly believe some folks think they have a true all LED tv. They think they are staring at thousands of tiny LEDs.

It's is the next thing needed generate sales, nothing less. My 3 year old Panasonic with old fashion lighting is fantastic. It bugs me to think if it goes belly up I may be forced to buy LED because that's all there is. Edge lighting may not be ready yet, but producers only want sales, not satisfied customers.

In the end it comes down to the viewer. I still remember going to my grandmother's house and seeing the blasting brightness and color. She was happy and that ends it.

One last comment. When did LEDs get so expensive? 20 years ago they were dirt cheap at Radio Shack and other places. There're everywhere, but when they light a LCD tv, they become very expensive.
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post #30 of 53 Old 05-17-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

probably two reasons for this:

1) you got a good panel with minimal uniformity issues for that specific model/make

2) you're not too critical when it comes to evaluating PQ in areas like dark scenes with a lot of black on-screen

1) that's what I stated earlier

2) Yeah... I am critical. As I said, my TV seems to be fine. I've evaluated for two years.

I am not here to promote LCD nor degrade plasma (personally, I'm sorry to see CRT fade away). Both can be fine is one does their research and opens the wallet.
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