LED/LCD to Replace VT50 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 66 Old 06-23-2012, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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As the thread says, I'm curious as to what LED/LCD display a person should look at if they were considering replacing the Panasonic VT50 plasma. I would be looking for something with as good of motion, color, and close black levels. What can someone recommend? Samsung or Sony? Have the HX929 fixed any of their issues?
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post #2 of 66 Old 06-23-2012, 09:35 PM
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To my eyes and my wife's eyes, only the Sony Bravia is equal or, or in some cases, better, than plasma, and only head on. I'm not familiar with all the LCD model numbers.
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post #3 of 66 Old 06-23-2012, 09:40 PM
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Unfortunately you would be trading for the usual LED issues of flashlighting and clouding and black levels plus motion performance that can't match the VT50, even the really expensive ones.
Do you watch movies a lot in the dark where the LED issues would be noticed the most?
It all comes down to which bad aspects of each type of display you can live with better and the price of course factors in too.
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post #4 of 66 Old 06-23-2012, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I've never owned an LED before, but might be willing to try it. The IR on the VT50 is bad. Anytime there is writing, especially in white, on the screen for a 10 seconds, it leaves IR and tonight with some up for longer I was able to notice it in the picture from normal viewing distance. If it's going to be this bad, then I need something else. I watch a lot of sports, play games, and watch movies. What do people recommend for good motion? What are the Samsung ES8000 series like?
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post #5 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 12:03 AM
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Have you aged the VT50 for over 100 hours first?
The IR is quick in the first 100 hours I heard, but doesn't happen much after that.

I've also considered the Samsung ES6500,ES7100, ES8000 though they are expensive for the higher end models. I've read reports of flashlighting and clouding on blacks however, so I would be concerned about that - its the nature of the edge LED backlighting.

Samsung I found has just recently come out with a less expensive model however that has behind the screen LED lighting (not the edges) so it is a thicker panel, but might have far less if any flashlighting - its the EH6070 I believe. Only has 2 HDMI ports compared to the edge-lit models that have 3, and it has 3D but no smart TV functions. That model does however come with a Samsung 3D blu-ray player bundled in that does have Smart/internet functions.
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post #6 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the VT50 was aged over 100 hours. Around 130 hours now and I'm finding the IR worse now then the initial 100 hours. It does seem to fade rather fast but I'm just concerned with what I normally watch will cause either burn in or long lasting IR. I do watch alot of sports (football and hockey) and I don't want the scorebars to leave long lasting IR, plus I do game quite a bit.
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post #7 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 10:02 AM
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DO NOT go edge lit. I would only go full array local dimming for great blacks that will compete with what you have been seeing on the panny.
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post #8 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

Yes, the VT50 was aged over 100 hours. Around 130 hours now and I'm finding the IR worse now then the initial 100 hours. It does seem to fade rather fast but I'm just concerned with what I normally watch will cause either burn in or long lasting IR. I do watch alot of sports (football and hockey) and I don't want the scorebars to leave long lasting IR, plus I do game quite a bit.

IMO, you have one of best displays available in 2012; I'd keep the VT50 since you are going to end up spending a lot more on a LED-LCD just to get comparable PQ and it will still be inferior to the VT50 in some respects (like motion resolution, viewing angle, uniformity, and black levels).
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post #9 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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So even with the bad IR keep the VT50? I was able to notice some of the IR from normal viewing distance last night.
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post #10 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

So even with the bad IR keep the VT50? I was able to notice some of the IR from normal viewing distance last night.

what are the current picture mode/settings you're using? you might want to dial down contrast to lessen the severity of IR
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post #11 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

So even with the bad IR keep the VT50? I was able to notice some of the IR from normal viewing distance last night.

I'd expect someone with the nick PlasmaPZ80U to be as fair and balanced as someone using the nick LCD Al. Would you expect LCD Al to recommend a plasma?

PlasmaPZ80u fails to mention the areas with the LCD-LEDS shine over the VT50. The contrast and lack of IR and burn in and better with reflecting light are areas with the LCDs shine over the Plasmas. I just shopped between these different sets and I found the VT50 just too dark for my likings. I ended up with the Samsung. I prefer the type of picture that pops. Take a look at the Sharp Elites if you are really super picky and aren't budget conscious. They fix many problems LCDs have had in the past.
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post #12 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 02:42 PM
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http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p65vt50/4505-6482_7-35118305.html?tag=mncol;rvwBody

the CNET review compares the VT50 to a couple of LED-LCDs: Sony KDL-55HX850 and Sharp Elite PRO-60X5FD

"Picture quality (How we test TVs)

The VT50 is the best-performing plasma I've tested since 2008, beating out the Samsung PNE8000 and Panasonic's own ST50 and GT50. I don't expect any other 2012 plasma to beat it. Its black-level performance, shadow detail, color accuracy, and bright-room picture quality outdo the Samsung's handily, and while the ST50 puts up a stronger fight than the Samsung, it also ultimately falls short of the VT50's picture quality, if not value. I haven't fully reviewed the GT50 yet but it's a closer match to the ST50 than to the VT50 from what I've seen so far.

The only TVs that can compete with the Panasonic VT50 are the Sharp Elite and, yes, that hoary veteran the Pioneer Kuro (circa 2008). Ignoring size differences (the Kuro maxed out at 60 inches) and the fact that you can't get one anymore, I actually would still rather watch the Kuro than this Panasonic -- but it's very close. The VT50 is a better TV overall than the Sharp Elite, however, despite the latter's arguably superior black-level performance. My vote goes to the Panasonic for its more accurate color and perfect screen uniformity.

Of course if you sit anywhere but the sweet spot in front of the middle of the screen, the Panasonic's advantages increase. The only reason I'd recommend the Sharp Elite instead is if you need the Elite's better light output to combat ambient light in the room, you really value 3D performance, or you really want the 70-inch Elite's larger screen.

As you can probably guess by now, the VT50 earned a "10" in this category. Its only flaws are minor crosstalk in 3D and some wonkiness during my calibration, but neither of those can keep it from taking the 2012 TV picture-quality crown -- and serving as my new reference TV. It's clearly Panasonic's best plasma ever, and creates some stiff competition for the OLEDs arriving later this year.

Click the image at the right to see the picture settings used in the review and to read more about how this TV's picture controls worked during calibration.

Comparison models (details)
Samsung PN60E8000 60-inch plasma
Panasonic TC-P55ST50 55-inch plasma
Panasonic TC-P55GT50 55-inch plasma
Sony KDL-55HX850 55-inch full-array LED
Sharp Elite PRO-60X5FD 60-inch full-array LED
Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD (reference) 50-inch plasma


Black level: Blacks on the VT50 had an inky quality visibly superior to what I saw on any other TV in the lineup aside from the two Elites. The letterbox bars and numerous black and shadowy areas from "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2" looked and measured a notch lighter on the Panasonic ST50 and GT50, the Samsung, and the Sony in most scenes, and the darker the scene, the more superior the VT50 looked than those four. Its true 0 percent measurement of 0.0024 is the lowest we've ever recorded for a non-Kuro plasma.

In brighter scenes and mixed content the advantage was much less noticeable, but in our lineup the VT50 still won against the non-Elites. Its advantage in light output compared with the PNE8000 was also readily apparent, and contributed to its better overall punch and impression of contrast.

In a few extremely dark scenes, such as the gathering of Voldemort's host on the hilltop (45:52), the superior black levels of the two Elites were discernible. The VT50 couldn't quite approach their depths of black, but the gap between the VT50 and the Elites was much narrower than between the VT50 and the others in our side-by-side comparison.

Compared with the LEDs, the dimmer image produced by the VT50 and the other plasmas in very bright scenes, like the all-white world of Harry's vision of the foetal Voldemort in chapter 22 (1:31:48), could be seen as a disadvantage. In my experience however the light-output limitations of plasmas in such scenes are only visible in side-by-side comparisons, and don't detract at all from critical viewing in dim and dark rooms.

Details in the shadows, such as the snake carvings in the watery cave (52:25), were essentially perfect, distinct and perfectly visible yet not too bright. The VT50 was probably the best in the room in this regard, although the Sharp Elite was extremely close. I didn't notice any instances of floating black or other anomalies in my viewing sessions.

Color accuracy: The VT50 was subjectively the best TV in the room overall in this area, despite its imperfect charts (see my notes on picture settings above). It trounced the cyan-poor Sharp Elite and also outdid the Kuro as well as the other Panasonics. Its closest non-Kuro color competition was provided by the Samsung PNE8000, although I'd give the nod to the VT50 for its less bluish cast.

Harry's vision in chapter 19 (1:15:48) showed the VT50's colors to good effect, from the grass to the blue sky (it looked more purplish on the Sharp) to the delicate skin tone of the young redhead. The bright scene dripped with saturation and lushness, another advantage of the deep black levels.

I looked hard for evidence of the slightly redder cast of the low grayscale, fluctuation in grayscale in the midtones, improper primary color balance, and a greenish cast to cyan -- all of which I measured during calibration -- but found these issues impossible to spot. Colors on the VT50 looked rich and yet accurate across the board, with the exception of a greenish-reddish tinge in the very brightest white areas like Harry's chapter 22 vision. Dark areas and shadows looked more neutral than on any other TV in the room.



Bright lighting: Under the lights the VT50 is simply the best non-matte TV I've ever tested. While it can't match the light output of LCD or the antireflective properties of a matte screen, it still manages to mute reflections better than any glossy LED I've seen. Next to the Sharp Elite, for example, my face appeared quite a bit dimmer and less noticeable when the screen went black.

The VT50's bigger strength is its ability to preserve black-level performance under the lights, lending its picture pop and contrast to spare. The Samsung plasma looked dull by comparison, due to its combination of more washed-out blacks under the light and dimmer highlights (despite being smaller than the 65-inch Panasonic I tested, the 60-inch Samsung is more limited in its light output unless you choose an inferior picture mode like Relax or Dynamic). The VT50 was also better than either the GT50 or the ST50 at preserving blacks; only the Sony and Sharp Elite LCDs outdid it in this department.

Panasonic's louvre filter acts like Venetian blinds to reject light coming from above. Compared with last year's sets the VT50's filter did dim the image a bit more when seen from high off-angle vertically. In practice, this difference is only visible from angles that are roughly equivalent to placing the TV on the floor or standing directly above it. As usual for a plasma, horizontal off-angle viewing, which is far more important than vertical in typical living-room situations, looked essentially perfect, in marked contrast to both LCDs."
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post #13 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenDokuYaku View Post

I'd expect someone with the nick PlasmaPZ80U to be as fair and balanced as someone using the nick LCD Al. Would you expect LCD Al to recommend a plasma?
PlasmaPZ80u fails to mention the areas with the LCD-LEDS shine over the VT50. The contrast and lack of IR and burn in and better with reflecting light are areas with the LCDs shine over the Plasmas. I just shopped between these different sets and I found the VT50 just too dark for my likings. I ended up with the Samsung. I prefer the type of picture that pops. Take a look at the Sharp Elites if you are really super picky and aren't budget conscious. They fix many problems LCDs have had in the past.

actually the name means nothing as I prefer LCDs and in general, would recommend them over the average plasma... I chose that name in 2009 when my primary display was a Panasonic TH-42PZ80U Plasma. Since then, I have bought some Samsung LCDs and most recently a LG LCD, which is my current primary display.

but the VT50 is a real good display and the OP might not be satisfied with the LED-LCD alternatives to it, especially in areas like viewing angle, uniformity, and black level with respect to viewing angle and backlight uniformity... also, the contrast ratio on the VT50 is hard to beat unless you get a much pricier LED-LCD like the Sharp Elite
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post #14 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenDokuYaku View Post

The contrast and lack of IR and burn in and better with reflecting light are areas with the LCDs shine over the Plasmas. I just shopped between these different sets and I found the VT50 just too dark for my likings. I ended up with the Samsung. I prefer the type of picture that pops. Take a look at the Sharp Elites if you are really super picky and aren't budget conscious. They fix many problems LCDs have had in the past.

that first bit only applies to LCDs with matte screens, which excludes most premium LED-LCD models

and the VT50 can be quite bright for a plasma
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post #15 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Went looking today and the only LED I would consider is the Samsung. However, I went to the store I bought the tv from, asked them about their 5 year warranty I bought, and the store manager, who I was dealing with, told me if I ever get any permanent burn in on the tv that they would replace the tv for me. So I'll be keeping the VT50. I was concerned that if IR came that easy I might get stubborn IR or burn in and then I would be stuck with it. But if the store is going to replace it if that happens, then no worries. Good thing I got the extra warranty.
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post #16 of 66 Old 06-24-2012, 08:22 PM
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No doubt that every TV that comes off the assembly line is a little different. Some buzz a lot and some don't buzz at all. Some have clouds and some have none at all. And most fall somewhere in between. One option you have is replace the VT50 with another VT50 and see if the new one is as prone to IR. In the Panasonic thread I've seen plenty complain about both problems and plenty say they see no IR and no Buzzing.
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post #17 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 09:53 AM
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Plasma sets often develop ir as users attempt to brighten up the image - similar to what LCD sets provide.

Reading reviewers comments on sets has to be done with some knowledge about the reviewing process in mind. First, reviewers love the image settings that appear dull and drab to many. Of course, with contrast down and colors muted, the ir possibilities are minimized for plasmas.

Pumping the settings up are often done to both meet viewer likes, and to offset ambient room light. Too often, people enable dot/dot settings on their set, to maximize pq, which unfortunately disables most plasms's pixel orbiter - designed to fight ir.

Bottom line is that with overly bright settings; dot to dot enabled. and static images, you're going to get ir/burn-in. TV watching will likely just get you ir, gaming enough will likely get you permenant burn-in.
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post #18 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

Plasma sets often develop ir as users attempt to brighten up the image - similar to what LCD sets provide.
Reading reviewers comments on sets has to be done with some knowledge about the reviewing process in mind. First, reviewers love the image settings that appear dull and drab to many. Of course, with contrast down and colors muted, the ir possibilities are minimized for plasmas.
Pumping the settings up are often done to both meet viewer likes, and to offset ambient room light. Too often, people enable dot/dot settings on their set, to maximize pq, which unfortunately disables most plasms's pixel orbiter - designed to fight ir.
Bottom line is that with overly bright settings; dot to dot enabled. and static images, you're going to get ir/burn-in. TV watching will likely just get you ir, gaming enough will likely get you permenant burn-in.

why would 1:1 pixel mapping disable the pixel orbiter?
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post #19 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mark_b View Post

Went looking today and the only LED I would consider is the Samsung. However, I went to the store I bought the tv from, asked them about their 5 year warranty I bought, and the store manager, who I was dealing with, told me if I ever get any permanent burn in on the tv that they would replace the tv for me. So I'll be keeping the VT50. I was concerned that if IR came that easy I might get stubborn IR or burn in and then I would be stuck with it. But if the store is going to replace it if that happens, then no worries. Good thing I got the extra warranty.

I would suggest posting in the owners thread for your VT50 in the plasma forum to see if what you're experiencing is typical for this model. I have a 2008 entry level 1080p model from Panasonic (TH-42PZ80U) that never got any persistent IR and while it can still get IR when static elements are left on screen for extended periods of time (especially if those elements are bright), it always goes away fairly quickly by watching full-screen content and is only visible when the screen goes black. FWIW, I actually used Vivid mode during the break-in period since I was clueless about proper calibration at the time and still never got any burn-in or even persistent IR then. I have calibrated the set since, though, and use Cinema mode with contrast maxed.
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post #20 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

why would 1:1 pixel mapping disable the pixel orbiter?

Because pixel orbiter only works when 1:1 pixel mapping is disabled. Orbiting works by shifting the image a few pixels intermittently as you view, and to do that, the image needs to be framed as 16:9, which crops in a bit and allows the image room to shift. At 1:1 pixel mapping, every last pixel available is displayed, thus not allowing any "room" for shifting.

To the OP, this is one reason why I gave up on plasma recently after trying several models, and went with a Samsung ES7500 instead. IR is definitely something you will likely be encountering, especially if you play games and watch sports like you say. Plasma models offer "pixel orbiters" to help prevent IR, but really it doesn't do much good from many of the comments I read, and many like myself would leave it off because as I said above, the only way it works is by cropping the image from 1:1 to 16:9, which affects image quality and crops the image. Who wants to crop the image when watching blu-rays or gaming?

True, BB will replace the tv if you get permanent burn-in. But keep a couple things in mind: One, that doesn't help you with temporary IR, which you'll be noticing a lot during sports and gaming. If you plan to watch an afternoon of sports or gaming, be prepared to see some IR afterwards until it fades, which can take hours, or days, if you do it regularly. It will be a regular occurrence, one you will have to live with, and BB will not help in that regard. Only if it's permanent will they replace it. Secondly, there's no guarantee that BB will be around in a few years to replace it for you. They are in serious trouble . They just closed 50 stores, and lost something like 1.8 billion dollars last year. Forbes had an article a few months ago about them and they forecast them going out of business sooner rather than later. So 3 years from now, if you get permanent burn-in and want BB to replace it, they may not even be around to honor it. Just something to think about.

For me, I'm glad I made the switch to LCD. IR wasn't the only reason I left plasma, but it factored in. And I broke in my sets with over 150 hours. The ES7500 I went with looks pretty stunning. I'll be honest - there's a little bit of flashlighting, but it's barely noticeable on my set. And there is some clouding, which is only noticeable during the darkest of scenes. Setting the "backlight" correctly instead of cranking it up to max helps a lot with those issues - these sets are super-bright, and you don't need to set the backlight up past the half-way point on the ES7500 - mine is set to 8 out of 20 and it still gets plenty bright when it needs to. In fact after watching this LCD for the last couple weeks, the plasmas seem downright dim. The whites in particular look so much better and brighter on the LCD, while maintaining deep blacks at the same time. The black level is fantastic - I was surprised how deep the blacks are in this LCD. The color is excellent, and there's lots of settings for calibration and customization. The motion is also excellent - no "soap opera effect", or motion interpolation, unless I enable it, which isn't necessary for smooth motion. The viewing angle is a problem for sure - it looks amazing when viewing head-on, but the image quickly falls apart when viewing off-angle, so consider that. If you have a lot of friends over and they sit all around the room, they won't be seeing the same thing you do. It takes getting used to coming from plasma. It looks awful from an angle, but incredible head-on.

Bottom line, I never thought I would be happy with an LCD after watching plasma, but I was wrong. It produces a beautiful image, and I no longer have to worry about IR, which is a huge weight lifted off me. If I want to game all afternoon, or watch a marathon of 4:3 shows, or my girlfriend wants to watch sports all day, I no longer have to worry in the back of my mind if we're hurting the tv. And I definitely noticed IR on both 2012 plasmas I tried (ST50 and E8000), and the D7000 from last year. As far as flashlighting and clouding, it seems that's luck of the draw - some sets are better than others. Both technologies have their limitations and drawbacks, so you'll have to decide what you can live with. But don't completely dismiss LCD thinking that they can't compare to plasma. In some ways they are even better, and in some ways, they are worse.
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post #21 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

Plasma sets often develop ir as users attempt to brighten up the image - similar to what LCD sets provide.
Reading reviewers comments on sets has to be done with some knowledge about the reviewing process in mind. First, reviewers love the image settings that appear dull and drab to many. Of course, with contrast down and colors muted, the ir possibilities are minimized for plasmas.
Pumping the settings up are often done to both meet viewer likes, and to offset ambient room light. Too often, people enable dot/dot settings on their set, to maximize pq, which unfortunately disables most plasms's pixel orbiter - designed to fight ir.
Bottom line is that with overly bright settings; dot to dot enabled. and static images, you're going to get ir/burn-in. TV watching will likely just get you ir, gaming enough will likely get you permenant burn-in.

A "smart" user will have the orbiter enabled when viewing TV and play games and disabled when watching a blu-ray. In that case, IR isn't a worry. I have owned many plasmas and never had an issue with IR or burn-in at all and I play video games on my 500m almost every day. This includes games like COD and BF3 with static huds. As long as you don't abuse the set you are fine

The OP, the only LCD/LED that directly competes (IMO) with the VT50 is the Sharp Elite.

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post #22 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 07:40 PM
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I hear that all the time, that pixel orbiters prevent IR, but I tried the pixel orbiter on one of my plasmas, and I still got IR quite easily. There are people in the plasma owners threads that are considered very knowledgeable regarding plasma, and believe pixel orbiters are just a gimmick thrown in to appease those that are concerned about IR, and aren't really effective. It may have a slight bit of use depending on what you're watching, but in reality the pixel orbiter only orbits a few pixels - if you've got something on the screen like a station logo, or anything else that is relatively thick, shifting a few pixels over won't change very much - most of the image will still be taking up the same area on the screen. A long ticker on the bottom of the screen will not be helped by a pixel orbiter, since the bar will always be in the same general are of the screen. I saw IR happen from watching a 2 hour film with subtitles - the subtitles lingered for several hours afterwards. The subs obviously varied throughout the film - the letters changed constantly, but the general area where the subs were displayed remained the same, and it was enough to cause IR.
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post #23 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 08:30 PM
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IR by definition is temporary and will go away on its own... so I don't know why some are so bothered by it and confuse it with burn-in, which is near impossible on recent plasmas (short of outright abuse).
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post #24 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I hear that all the time, that pixel orbiters prevent IR, but I tried the pixel orbiter on one of my plasmas, and I still got IR quite easily. There are people in the plasma owners threads that are considered very knowledgeable regarding plasma, and believe pixel orbiters are just a gimmick thrown in to appease those that are concerned about IR, and aren't really effective. It may have a slight bit of use depending on what you're watching, but in reality the pixel orbiter only orbits a few pixels - if you've got something on the screen like a station logo, or anything else that is relatively thick, shifting a few pixels over won't change very much - most of the image will still be taking up the same area on the screen. A long ticker on the bottom of the screen will not be helped by a pixel orbiter, since the bar will always be in the same general are of the screen. I saw IR happen from watching a 2 hour film with subtitles - the subtitles lingered for several hours afterwards. The subs obviously varied throughout the film - the letters changed constantly, but the general area where the subs were displayed remained the same, and it was enough to cause IR.

What you read is partly correct. Pixel Orbiter isn't a total gimmick but it doesn't eliminate, or even reduce IR. All it does is dull the edges of any sharp IR (such as logos) so that it doesn't stand out, in other words (for a lack of a better term) reduce it's obviousness. Of course as already mentioned, IR in itself isn't permanent but continuous and persistent IR in the same location can potentially lead to burn in.
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post #25 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

IR by definition is temporary and will go away on its own... so I don't know why some are so bothered by it and confuse it with burn-in, which is near impossible on recent plasmas (short of outright abuse).

Two reasons:

1) if temporary image retention continues to appear in the same spot repeatedly, say a certain network logo or ticker from a channel you watch frequently, it can lead to permanent burn-in over time. Again, that's worst-case scenario, but for those that watch lots of, say, ESPN, or game heavily with certain HUD elements (scores/health meters), the same temporary IR appearing over and over again on the same spot can lead to damage long-term.

2) for the majority of cases where it is temporary, it's still annoying to watch say a few hours of one type of aspect ratio or channel, then have to put up with annoying IR for the rest of the day with everything else you watch. Sure, it should fade, but if there's always a trace of something or other left over from previous viewings, then your screen may never be really "clean" - as one image fades you're already working towards building up the next case of IR by watching something else with a logo, bars, ticker, etc.

Too many plasma lovers are too quick to dismiss IR as a complete non-issue, when it really is something to be at least partly concerned over. I was told by members in here and also by salesmen at BB that burn-in is a thing of the past, but nobody likes to mention IR, which appears the same to viewers, except it's only temporary. It's still something that affects the image you're viewing, and too many people are quick to pretend like it doesn't happen.
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post #26 of 66 Old 06-26-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Two reasons:
1) if temporary image retention continues to appear in the same spot repeatedly, say a certain network logo or ticker from a channel you watch frequently, it can lead to permanent burn-in over time. Again, that's worst-case scenario, but for those that watch lots of, say, ESPN, or game heavily with certain HUD elements (scores/health meters), the same temporary IR appearing over and over again on the same spot can lead to damage long-term.
2) for the majority of cases where it is temporary, it's still annoying to watch say a few hours of one type of aspect ratio or channel, then have to put up with annoying IR for the rest of the day with everything else you watch. Sure, it should fade, but if there's always a trace of something or other left over from previous viewings, then your screen may never be really "clean" - as one image fades you're already working towards building up the next case of IR by watching something else with a logo, bars, ticker, etc.
Too many plasma lovers are too quick to dismiss IR as a complete non-issue, when it really is something to be at least partly concerned over. I was told by members in here and also by salesmen at BB that burn-in is a thing of the past, but nobody likes to mention IR, which appears the same to viewers, except it's only temporary. It's still something that affects the image you're viewing, and too many people are quick to pretend like it doesn't happen.

well, it's a non-issue on my 2008 Panny Plasma

FWIW, the main reasons I prefer LCDs over plasmas are the following:

-no ABL
-slightly sharper image
-matte screens handle ambient light best
-brighter image if you want it
-no dithering of blacks
-lighter and more energy efficient (especially LED models)
-more screen sizes, models, and brands to choose from
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post #27 of 66 Old 06-27-2012, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ATC7 View Post

What you read is partly correct. Pixel Orbiter isn't a total gimmick but it doesn't eliminate, or even reduce IR. All it does is dull the edges of any sharp IR (such as logos) so that it doesn't stand out, in other words (for a lack of a better term) reduce it's obviousness. Of course as already mentioned, IR in itself isn't permanent but continuous and persistent IR in the same location can potentially lead to burn in.

That isn't exactly correct. It shifts the entire picture one pixel width/height at a time and moves them up to 4 pixels away in cycle, so that the same image is not using the same pixel constantly. It doesn't dull (arguably it does but you can't notice it) out the picture or make logos not stand out.

And it is not a gimmick at all. The method works. I'm not saying you should not be concerned about IR. It is possible for plasmas to still.

I choose plasmas because I am a purest, for the most part, and want the most accurate picture, deepest blacks, best motion, best off angle and best bang for my buck possible. I am not opposed to LCD/LEDs at all. I am hoping to buy a 2nd gen led elite next year.

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Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

That isn't exactly correct. It shifts the entire picture one pixel width/height at a time and moves them up to 4 pixels away in cycle, so that the same image is not using the same pixel constantly. It doesn't dull (arguably it does but you can't notice it) out the picture or make logos not stand out.
And it is not a gimmick at all. The method works. I'm not saying you should not be concerned about IR. It is possible for plasmas to still.
I choose plasmas because I am a purest, for the most part, and want the most accurate picture, deepest blacks, best motion, best off angle and best bang for my buck possible. I am not opposed to LCD/LEDs at all. I am hoping to buy a 2nd gen led elite next year.

Actually what you're saying is correct and corroborates what I was saying. There was a discussion a while ago about Pixel Orbiter that went technical and the crux of it was that while the whole image moved a few pixels, logos for example, the core of the logos were still covering the same area while the edges of the logos were essentially hovering the perimeter. So the core of the logos would still cause IR but the edges were totally faint. I wish I can find the thread now as I'm not sure I'm explaining it well.

I'm also a plasma user and never had burn-in. OTOH I've had a lot of IR but it's never stayed more than a week at the most and I've gamed a lot and watched a lot of CNN and such. For the most part it is indeed a non-issue.
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post #29 of 66 Old 06-27-2012, 11:13 AM
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I should add that my '08 plasma has always been in 1:1 pixel mapping mode (HD size 2) and even so, IR is a non-issue in terms of the risk of getting burn-in.
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post #30 of 66 Old 06-27-2012, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

IR by definition is temporary and will go away on its own... so I don't know why some are so bothered by it and confuse it with burn-in, which is near impossible on recent plasmas (short of outright abuse).

I have a Panny G25. After 10 months of trouble free use, my son left the cartoon network on pause for a few hours... maybe up to 6.
Now I have CN logo burned in to my screen. It's been there for over 6 months, and wont go away.
Panny basically told me to take a hike.mad.gif

For those that don't know the logo... here it is.
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