Almost ready to buy but what are the disadvantages of getting an IPS panel? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-27-2012, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I am close to being set on the Panasonic 2012 IPS models (the lower end ones, not the fancy WT50 local dimming 3x the price thing) to buy in the coming week or two but now what to know would make a person not want an IPS panel and instead go with some sort of *VA panel.
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post #2 of 26 Old 06-27-2012, 09:01 AM
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Bad Blacks. But really that is the only downside. It depends on how picky you are about PQ.

Other than that the Panasonic line has some of the best input lag for gaming, and great viewing angles.
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post #3 of 26 Old 06-27-2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Hotthree View Post

Bad Blacks. But really that is the only downside. It depends on how picky you are about PQ.
Other than that the Panasonic line has some of the best input lag for gaming, and great viewing angles.

+1, pretty much

though my LG LK450 has poor vertical viewing angles for some reason (S-IPS panel, 2011 model).


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post #4 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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How poor?
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post #5 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

+1, pretty much
though my LG LK450 has poor vertical viewing angles for some reason (S-IPS panel, 2011 model).

Are you sure you did not get a VA panel? Last year LG was doing ips lotteries with certain tv's so technically not all the tv's were ips panels. You had to get the right serial code for the ips one.

This model I believe is one of them. Can someone confirm?
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you sure you did not get a VA panel? Last year LG was doing ips lotteries with certain tv's so technically not all the tv's were ips panels. You had to get the right serial code for the ips one.
This model I believe is one of them. Can someone confirm?

Is the panel lottery still on going for 2012 tvs? Its one of my reasons for staying away from LG.
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Hotthree View Post

Are you sure you did not get a VA panel? Last year LG was doing ips lotteries with certain tv's so technically not all the tv's were ips panels. You had to get the right serial code for the ips one.
This model I believe is one of them. Can someone confirm?

I have the S-IPS version, I confirmed it by looking the the shape of the subpixels/pixels and via this site (using the back vent to see the sticker on the panel with the actual code

http://www.panelook.com/modeldetail.php?id=13896


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post #8 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 10:07 AM
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How poor?

poor enough that I would place the TV as close to eye level to your normal viewing position as possible; particularly avoid placing it above you since the blacks at the top of the screen will washout badly, looking light gray/whitish in color... if fact, it's worse than the vertical viewing angles on most *VA panels

interestingly, owners of the 2010 LD models don't have this problem (maybe the 2011 LK series is missing a polarizer or something in the panel/backlight assembly)


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post #9 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 11:58 AM
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Is the panel lottery still on going for 2012 tvs? Its one of my reasons for staying away from LG.

No there is no more panel lottery. It was for a few models in 2011. I do not know why either just that it happened.

The blacks will not be amazing, but it really depends on how picky the viewer is. Some people in here will not accept anything but perfect. However, to me blacks is not gonna make or break a tv to a certain degree. The Panasonic line is still a great tv and looks pretty dang good. I would go to a store and view, if it does not stand out go with it. From the reviews/comments I have seen people have really enjoyed this tv. I am on the fence about it and for me its coming down to ST50 or ET5 and whether or not I will be hooking my comp up to it a lot.
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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No there is no more panel lottery. It was for a few models in 2011. I do not know why either just that it happened.

So all 2012 LG models are now IPS?
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-29-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Hotthree View Post

No there is no more panel lottery. It was for a few models in 2011. I do not know why either just that it happened.
The blacks will not be amazing, but it really depends on how picky the viewer is. Some people in here will not accept anything but perfect. However, to me blacks is not gonna make or break a tv to a certain degree. The Panasonic line is still a great tv and looks pretty dang good. I would go to a store and view, if it does not stand out go with it. From the reviews/comments I have seen people have really enjoyed this tv. I am on the fence about it and for me its coming down to ST50 or ET5 and whether or not I will be hooking my comp up to it a lot.

I believe the panel lottery is still in effect, what are your sources?


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post #12 of 26 Old 07-05-2012, 05:58 PM
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I agree with others, mediocre black-level performance is the one disadvantage of the IPS displays I have seen. After owning a Samsung 46" TV (2010 model) that can go to dead black when viewed straight on, I bought an LG 32" set (also a 2010 model, LD450 series) making sure I got an IPS panel before I knew about the black-level limitation. I was quite disappointed, and I returned the LG and later bought a 2011-model Samsung 32" set with black level matching my 46" one, plus better viewing angles (though still not as good as IPS). Individual tastes may vary, of course, as well as the location of the display when you use it.

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post #13 of 26 Old 07-05-2012, 08:58 PM
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I had a 47lk520 ips .I had it with top of screen about 5 ft above eye level(up high makes it look worse).With standard def when it had bars on screen it did not look that good for a new tv.The bars glowed a slight reddish color and not very dark blacks(more noticable in black room).For hi def full screen it looked really good-especially sports.It had a lot more detail/clarity on hidef than the Samsung 46d630 i had.

Hidef/full screen- a great tv especially for the price
Standard def with bars- a bit dissapointing
Viewing angle-tv up high it's questionable.it probably looks better at eye level
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post #14 of 26 Old 07-05-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I had a 47lk520 ips .I had it with top of screen about 5 ft above eye level(up high makes it look worse).With standard def when it had bars on screen it did not look that good for a new tv.The bars glowed a slight reddish color and not very dark blacks(more noticable in black room).For hi def full screen it looked really good-especially sports.It had a lot more detail/clarity on hidef than the Samsung 46d630 i had.
Hidef/full screen- a great tv especially for the price
Standard def with bars- a bit dissapointing
Viewing angle-tv up high it's questionable.it probably looks better at eye level

it seems all current IPS panel TVs have washout at the top of the screen when looking from below (especially when you sit up close). I checked CR.org for reviews of all Panasonic and LG LEDs/LCDs listed with "Wide" viewing angles. Every single review included the following (here are two samples, most reviews are identical to the second review):

"VIEWING ANGLE. This LG 55LK520 has a wide viewing angle overall, better than that of most LCD sets. It will provide the same picture quality, with fewer problems than most LCD sets, for typical viewing conditions--say, if your family is seated across a long sectional or in chairs off to the sides of the TV.
With brighter scenes, the picture maintained its color accuracy and reasonable contrast when we moved off to the sides. At wider angles the image dimmed slightly, with some loss of detail in the darkest shadows. When viewed from the sides, black levels varied depending on the vertical position of the viewer's head. As we moved closer to the screen, this limitation became even more apparent, especially if seated on the floor looking upward, where black levels washed out completely. On brighter scenes colors held nicely when we moved up and down, as if shifting from a standing position to a floor seated position. Note that plasma TVs are currently the only flat-panel technology on the market that provides unlimited viewing angle, with no change in image quality regardless of where the viewer sits."

"VIEWING ANGLE. This LG 37CS560 has a wide viewing angle overall, better than most LCD sets. It will provide the same picture quality, with fewer problems than most LCD sets, for typical viewing conditions--say, if your family is seated across a long sectional or in chairs off to the sides of the TV.
With brighter scenes, the picture maintained its color accuracy and reasonable contrast when we moved off to the sides. At wider angles the image visibly dimmed, with some loss of detail in the darkest shadows. When viewed from the sides, black levels varied depending on the vertical position of the viewer's head. As we moved closer to the screen, this limitation became even more apparent, especially if seated on the floor looking upward, where black levels brightened significantly. On brighter scenes colors held nicely when we moved up and down, as if shifting from a standing position to a floor seated position. Note that plasma TVs are currently the only flat-panel technology on the market that provides an unlimited viewing angle, with no change in image quality regardless of where the viewer sits."


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post #15 of 26 Old 07-05-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

it seems all current IPS panel TVs have washout at the top of the screen when looking from below (especially when you sit up close). I checked CR.org for reviews of all Panasonic and LG LEDs/LCDs listed with "Wide" viewing angles. Every single review included the following (here are two samples, most reviews are identical to the second review):

This viewing angle comes up from time to time. With my 47LD520, which sits on top of a media console that makes the top of the tv bezel about 5' from the floor, I can sit on the floor in front of the tv and I just don't see any washout at the top of the screen, so of course from 10' away on a couch, the screen uniformity is quite nice. Maybe there's a panel difference between the 2010 and 2011/2012 models? Blacks are probably the biggest drawback but with the use of ambient lighting, that can be mitigated somewhat. As far as the panel lottery goes, I don't think there is any definitive determination either way that it still isn't taking place on some models. I've seen reported that some 2012s are still using the "Y" product code determination on some models to indicate an S-IPS panel. Somebody needs to take a 10x magnifying lens to their local BB and start doing a loupe test on all of the LGs on the floor and then correlating their findings with the complete product code wink.gif
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post #16 of 26 Old 07-06-2012, 09:45 AM
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This viewing angle comes up from time to time. With my 47LD520, which sits on top of a media console that makes the top of the tv bezel about 5' from the floor, I can sit on the floor in front of the tv and I just don't see any washout at the top of the screen, so of course from 10' away on a couch, the screen uniformity is quite nice. Maybe there's a panel difference between the 2010 and 2011/2012 models? Blacks are probably the biggest drawback but with the use of ambient lighting, that can be mitigated somewhat. As far as the panel lottery goes, I don't think there is any definitive determination either way that it still isn't taking place on some models. I've seen reported that some 2012s are still using the "Y" product code determination on some models to indicate an S-IPS panel. Somebody needs to take a 10x magnifying lens to their local BB and start doing a loupe test on all of the LGs on the floor and then correlating their findings with the complete product code wink.gif

I can imagine all the funny looks they'd get if they walked in and started examining the pixel structure of the LCD panels. biggrin.gif

When I bought my LG and told them I wanted the "Y" panel (which I explained was IPS and had better color and viewing angles than the "D" panel), they looked at me with a blank stare and said all the TVs are exactly the same.


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post #17 of 26 Old 07-06-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

This viewing angle comes up from time to time. With my 47LD520, which sits on top of a media console that makes the top of the tv bezel about 5' from the floor, I can sit on the floor in front of the tv and I just don't see any washout at the top of the screen, so of course from 10' away on a couch, the screen uniformity is quite nice. Maybe there's a panel difference between the 2010 and 2011/2012 models?

Not sure, since I haven't seen a 2010 model myself up-close. The washout is most apparent with the blacks; as such, it's harder to notice with brighter content.


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post #18 of 26 Old 07-06-2012, 04:08 PM
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I can imagine all the funny looks they'd get if they walked in and started examining the pixel structure of the LCD panels. biggrin.gif
When I bought my LG and told them I wanted the "Y" panel (which I explained was IPS and had better color and viewing angles than the "D" panel), they looked at me with a blank stare and said all the TVs are exactly the same.

It almost makes me want to go to BB and freak them out with my little 10x magnifying lens biggrin.gif And then watch them try to kick me out of the store when I start explaining to the customers what I am doing and why. I got the same response as well when I went to BB to buy my 520. They had two boxes on the floor and I actually made them go back and find one with the "Y" in the product code. They thought I was crazy and didn't have a clue as to what I was doing but they weren't about to lose a sale smile.gif I do wish the blacks were better though, but no tv is perfect, and it still amazes family and friends when they see it. The most common comment is, "that's an LCD? Wow". What ever. It is, after all, just a tv.
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post #19 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 03:05 AM
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Thanks for info on viewing angle

Other things on lg -very good motion performance compared to samsung(improved with motion controls at max).On samsung when watching hockey when fast moving skater the player would turn into a total blur.

I kinda noticed reddish ips glow on all white screens like hockey/and angle viewing on ips I had.More noticeable in black room.Not a big deal.it just takes getting use to after watching old CRT tvs.The other people in the house liked it because it was so clear and colorful.
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post #20 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 03:14 AM
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There was also the dirty screen look to it.Looks like dirty streaks like someone cleaned tv with dirty rag.It was Not that noticeable though.The very goods on the tv beat the few negatives.
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post #21 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Thanks for info on viewing angle
Other things on lg -very good motion performance compared to samsung(improved with motion controls at max).On samsung when watching hockey when fast moving skater the player would turn into a total blur.
I kinda noticed reddish ips glow on all white screens like hockey/and angle viewing on ips I had.More noticeable in black room.Not a big deal.it just takes getting use to after watching old CRT tvs.The other people in the house liked it because it was so clear and colorful.

The reddish glow (possibly pink) on the all white screens may just need a little adjusting with a calibration disk. The DSE (Dirty Screen Effect) has also been noted by some but I don't have my notes in front of me right now to address that properly. Maybe somebody else can field that one (Phase, Plasma?).
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post #22 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 10:39 AM
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I'm not sure whether my LK450 has DSE, but it does have a very mild uniformity issue where you can see the horizontal line-like spaces between the 16 EEFL tubes that make up the backlight. Not really DSE nor horizontal banding, just a very mild backlight uniformity issue (and when I say very mild that is while staring at a full white field... the only time a see it with real program material is when the camera pans slowly on bright scenes).

Regarding the red/pink glow, my LK450 doesn't have it at all; however, the blacks do have the typical blue-violet glow


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post #23 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I believe the panel lottery is still in effect, what are your sources?

You're right. The 32" at BB says CUSD on the box, but the display model looks like an IPS to me. The 37" display model also looks like an IPS and the box says CUSY.

ernie
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post #24 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 12:28 PM
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You're right. The 32" at BB says CUSD on the box, but the display model looks like an IPS to me. The 37" display model also looks like an IPS and the box says CUSY.

an easy way to see if the model on display is IPS or VA is to lightly tap the screen; if it turns whitish near the spot you tapped it, it's a *VA for sure (the IPS doesn't brighten at all when you do this)


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post #25 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

I had a 47lk520 ips .I had it with top of screen about 5 ft above eye level(up high makes it look worse).With standard def when it had bars on screen it did not look that good for a new tv.The bars glowed a slight reddish color and not very dark blacks(more noticable in black room).For hi def full screen it looked really good-especially sports.It had a lot more detail/clarity on hidef than the Samsung 46d630 i had.
Hidef/full screen- a great tv especially for the price
Standard def with bars- a bit dissapointing
Viewing angle-tv up high it's questionable.it probably looks better at eye level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Thanks for info on viewing angle
Other things on lg -very good motion performance compared to samsung(improved with motion controls at max).On samsung when watching hockey when fast moving skater the player would turn into a total blur.
I kinda noticed reddish ips glow on all white screens like hockey/and angle viewing on ips I had.More noticeable in black room.Not a big deal.it just takes getting use to after watching old CRT tvs.The other people in the house liked it because it was so clear and colorful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

There was also the dirty screen look to it.Looks like dirty streaks like someone cleaned tv with dirty rag.It was Not that noticeable though.The very goods on the tv beat the few negatives.

Regarding the Samsung LND630, a part of me will always wonder if I would have been happier with it's much darker blacks versus my IPS panel LG LK450. However, I did read the entire LND630 thread (which was oddly only 16 pages long vs. the much longer LG LK450/LK520 thread) and found that there were basically two *VA panel types available: a "SN02" S-MVA panel made by CMO that has great panel uniformity but narrow viewing angles and a "SQ01" S-PVA panel made by Samsung that has moderate viewing angles but can be plagued with flashlighting, clouding, and horizontal/vertical banding (flashlighting is especially bad at the bottom of the screen). In addition, all D630s seem to have issues with AMP, which stutters and skips frames when left in any position other than OFF or Clear and with 1080/24p direct sources. So, you can't get true 5:5 pulldown for 24p direct sources without turning AMP to Custom with judder reduction at zero and blur reduction at 10 (and then being forced to deal with stuttering motion and skipped frames). You can only get 2:3 pulldown with AMP OFF or in the Clear position. So, 2:3 pulldown must be done either at the BD player or the TV despite the TV's 120Hz refresh rate. All in all, the better blacks don't seem worth having given the other issues (not to mention that the 40" version costed around $750 at the time I got my LG 42LK450 for about $450. So, while the grass always seems greener on the other side, I'll take one disadvantage versus several anyday.


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post #26 of 26 Old 07-07-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

an easy way to see if the model on display is IPS or VA is to lightly tap the screen; if it turns whitish near the spot you tapped it, it's a *VA for sure (the IPS doesn't brighten at all when you do this)

I had forgotten about the "smear" test wink.gif
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