Any "official" way to measure how glossy or matte the screen is? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 07-06-2012, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm getting tired of arguing with manufacturers and sales people about what is matte and what isn't.
I've heard too many times that "all our products are matte" and when I see then, they are like mirrors.
Last in the line was Apple's retina display with "75% less glare".
Well, the reflection is a bit darker, bur it is as sharp as Apple's double-mirror screens have always been.

It looks to me that most people does not understand that surface being "matte" means a combination of two things:
how much does the surface reflects the light and how sharp is the reflection.

Is there any "industry standard" way to measure the "matteness" (scattering of light?) of screens?

Could we who care about this start to ask product reviewers to measure "matteness" and also demand from manufacturers to include this info to their specs?
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post #2 of 10 Old 07-06-2012, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

I'm getting tired of arguing with manufacturers and sales people about what is matte and what isn't.
I've heard too many times that "all our products are matte" and when I see then, they are like mirrors.
Last in the line was Apple's retina display with "75% less glare".
Well, the reflection is a bit darker, bur it is as sharp as Apple's double-mirror screens have always been.
It looks to me that most people does not understand that surface being "matte" means a combination of two things:
how much does the surface reflects the light and how sharp is the reflection.
Is there any "industry standard" way to measure the "matteness" (scattering of light?) of screens?
Could we who care about this start to ask product reviewers to measure "matteness" and also demand from manufacturers to include this info to their specs?
The fine line between matte (in one person's eyes) and semi-glossy is probably hard to define, somewhat similar to when Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart made his famous ruling on pornographic movies.

He said, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

Good luck getting all the manufacturers to agree on a definition of "matte." smile.gif
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post #3 of 10 Old 07-07-2012, 02:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BoilerJim View Post

Good luck getting all the manufacturers to agree on a definition of "matte." smile.gif
First there has to be standard way to measure it and that's what I'm asking here.
Maybe another group than LCD would be better for this question?

As for porn, it's quite much harder (!) to define in one number... wink.gif
Once upon a time, long time ago in a country very near me, the definition was: if it has more than 45°, then it's hard porn!
Finding out what that degree meant is left to homework... wink.gif
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post #4 of 10 Old 07-07-2012, 10:46 AM
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not sure if this means anything but when I looked up the panel on my LG LCD, I got the following info regarding screen coating:

http://www.panelook.com/modeldetail.php?id=13896

"surface: antiglare (haze 10%), hard coating (3H)"

it's supposed to be a matte screen TV.... though it might be semi-matte
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post #5 of 10 Old 07-07-2012, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm,
basics about the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_appearance

And one example of device needed to measure:
http://www.rhopointinstruments.com/Gloss-Haze-DOI-Meter-20%C2%B0/60%C2%B0/85%C2%B0.html
£2500...
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post #6 of 10 Old 07-07-2012, 09:01 PM
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You can't just walk into a store, turn the set off, and observe for yourself whether it has the desired level of "matteness"?

Steve S.
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post #7 of 10 Old 07-08-2012, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

You can't just walk into a store, turn the set off, and observe for yourself whether it has the desired level of "matteness"?
Why there are reviews in the internet anyways?
Or in magazines?

Also, in smaller countries like mine, all the models are not in stores...
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post #8 of 10 Old 07-14-2012, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

not sure if this means anything but when I looked up the panel on my LG LCD, I got the following info regarding screen coating:
http://www.panelook.com/modeldetail.php?id=13896
"surface: antiglare (haze 10%), hard coating (3H)"
it's supposed to be a matte screen TV.... though it might be semi-matte
Hmmm,
you can't search Panelook with surface info...
Is there a lot of panels with haze percentage info?
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post #9 of 10 Old 07-14-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post

Is there any "industry standard" way to measure the "matteness" (scattering of light?) of screens?
You may want to check out the IDMS -
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334946/information-display-measurements-standard/0_60#post_22106408

-nony
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post #10 of 10 Old 07-17-2012, 03:53 AM
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As it turns out, there are a number of reputable organizations around the globe, who have published, (and continue to publish) display metrology standards for the display industry. However, in the popular (including the popular technical) press, there appears to be a gap - some of the agreed upon techniques have not been filtered down for consumption by the masses (read - lay people, like myself).

This gap appears to have been addressed by the marketing execs, who have a mandate to reach the consumer, by promoting their brand-specific, home-grown, insignificant-to-the- technically initiated, marketing concoctions - which have been termed "specsmanship" by Dr. Edward F. Kelley, who first coined the term (or at least popularized it), and I cite from the IDMS-

3.3.1 SPECSMANSHIP & WIGGLE-ROOM ELIMINATION
Specsmanship amounts to deliberately misleading people by providing specifications that do not realistically portray the
display characteristics under normal use. The term “wiggle-room” arises from a lack of absolute precision in the language
used in specifying a requirement where the readers know exactly what is really meant by the requirement, but because of the
lack of precision of the language, they deliberately find a loop-hole in the requirement or deliberately misinterpret the
requirement to their own advantage. It can amount to a form of specsmanship.
If the manufacturer describes or specifies how to set up the display for its intended use to provide the very best
quality and most pleasing and useful image for the task at hand, then use the manufacturer’s setup specifications to set up the
display. If the manufacturer’s setup specifications are not provided or are not suitable for the intended task then you should
use the other suggestions presented in these sections. However, it is not permissible—and it violates the philosophy of this
document—to adjust the display to extremes in order to get extreme measurement results if such adjustments make the
display unsuitable, impractical, and unreasonable for the intended task, or drives it to extremes beyond the anticipated
production and/or distribution configuration. Calling for such extreme settings disqualifies the manufacturer’s setup
specifications from being used to set up the display. The term manufacturer’s setup specifications or any other idea presented
in these sections is not a license for anyone tweaking the display to an impractical state and then obtaining measurement
results for a public disclosure. That is, the display needs to look as good as it can for its intended task and not be configured
with unrealistic settings that are used only to make the measurement results look good for competition or marketing purposes.


I do believe, that most of us want to know about the matte/glossy characteristics of a set - up front, and the industry and their puppets (not you CNET) need to push on this. Are you hearing me CNET Asia?

If some of the characterizations in the IDMS need to be combined/reduced to become more useful (e.g. lambertian/haze), more perceptually meaningful (e.g. to what extent can this display be a good fit in my viewing environment), there may be some work ahead. (We have done that with temperature and humidity-->temperature-humidity index, with overall success)

-nony
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